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Update from the IDF; message posts so you know i'm still here
Topic Started: Oct 8 2004, 07:03 AM (889 Views)
Hoss
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Don't make me use my bare hands on you.
somerled
Oct 15 2004, 12:26 PM
Have your fun.

It just shows how small minded you people really are. :loling:

Yeah, calling people who disagree with you 'indocrinated' is a much more enlightened position. I will try to live up to those standards.

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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
No - your choosing to insult Yo-Yo with your choice of the word indoctrinated and then going the step further by bolding and italicizing it shows who is really small minded,

Yo-Yo has never said anything insulting or rude to anyone here and deserves to be treated better then that.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
My question was
Quote:
 
What is are you likely to do if you are ordered to do something that is not moral or unjust ? (This could involve settlers or Palestinians or demonstrators.)


I believe indoctrinated is the correct word and an accurate description and reflection of general military training practices (it may or may not apply to officer training).

If the use of the word is offensive (in regards to the IDF) then that is not my problem. Perhaps those who find this word offensive might suggest a more accurate word with the same meaning ? Otherwise Posted Image

My question was valid even if it is an unconfortable one to some here.

I find something that Yo Yo said about the application of lethal force against (armed) children disturbing. An armed child can be neutralised without the application of lethal force.
I wonder how likely it is that he will encounter armed children ?
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bonja
Commodore
somerled
Oct 16 2004, 04:21 AM
My question was
Quote:
 
What is are you likely to do if you are ordered to do something that is not moral or unjust ? (This could involve settlers or Palestinians or demonstrators.)


I believe indoctrinated is the correct word and an accurate description and reflection of general military training practices (it may or may not apply to officer training).

If the use of the word is offensive (in regards to the IDF) then that is not my problem. Perhaps those who find this word offensive might suggest a more accurate word with the same meaning ? Otherwise Posted Image

My question was valid even if it is an unconfortable one to some here.

I find something that Yo Yo said about the application of lethal force against (armed) children disturbing. An armed child can be neutralised without the application of lethal force.
I wonder how likely it is that he will encounter armed children ?

This is what Yo-Yo said about facing armed children (the bolding is mine)

Quote:
 
If faced with a moral dilema (israel, palestinian, or demonstrators) which a doubt will occur as i said before, i'll walk my self to jail. I have also some to understand that in way confusion exists and there is alot of 'fog' it could very with end up that i am faced with a child brandishing a automatic rifle or a bomb. Would it be imoral to kill him to save my life and/or the life of other soldiers/innocents? That could be debated but i beleive killing him would be the only right option (if you cant talk him out of it of course or etc) but such an act would probably haunt me for they rest of my life. Would oyu brand me an imooral monster is i was focred to do such as thing?


It seems clear in this statement that killing the threat is a last resort. How is that disturbing? If some kid came after me with a weapon, I'd have no problem with using deadly force to stop him.

Maybe you need to read each post carefully a few times before you respond.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
The kid could be incapacitated (wounded) without the need to kill him (or her) outright. It's a kid, shoot him in the leg and he'll pretty quickly forget about shooting you as he'll be crying and rolling around in agony.

I do not accept the use of lethal force against children under any circumstances.

Perhaps another question needs asking - why would a child confront a soldier with a weapon ?
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Yes - why would a child be confronting a soldier?

What kind of monster would arm a child and send them out to the front lines???

As for why we were upset by your choice of words - why don't you pick up a dictionary once in a while and learn what the big words you use actually mean. Here I will help you with indoctrination

As you can clearly see the word refers to being taught a particular doctrine or ideology. It does not simply refer to training practices. If you were refering to training practices you should have used the word "trained" We are not as stupid as you seem to think. It is clear that you were trying to make it sound as if Yo-Yo had been brainwashed. :realmad:
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet:
Soldiers undergoing basic military training are indeed indoctrinated and trained to obey orders pretty much automatically.

IDF site
Quote:
 
Basic training was an extremely strenuous indoctrination into the IDF, involving forced marches, bivouacs, night exercises, and obstacle courses, focused on operations at the squad and platoon level. It also stressed strengthening the recruits' knowledge of the country's origins and traditions, and identification with national ideals and goals. Visits were made to kibbutzim, moshavim (sing., moshav--see Glossary), and places venerated in Jewish or IDF history. Basic training also served as a melting pot, bringing together different ethnic groups and individuals from a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds. The IDF played an especially important role in the education and assimilation of new immigrants.


Sounds like brainwashing to me and assimulation into the group-think paradymes of the organisation.
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
Brain washing? Listen, I will not deny that military organizations somewhat skew SOME the information that they give their troops for morale purposes (for example, forbidding the BBC being broadcast on British warships due to the constant anti-war messages), but there is no brain washing going on. Do you have any idea of what brain washing is?
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
somerled
Oct 16 2004, 10:49 AM
The kid could be incapacitated (wounded) without the need to kill him (or her) outright.  It's a kid, shoot him in the leg and he'll pretty quickly forget about shooting you as he'll be crying and rolling around in agony.

I do not accept the use of lethal force against children under any circumstances.

Perhaps another question needs asking - why would a child confront a soldier with a weapon ?

How many kids have you shot in the leg to be so confident in their reaction to it?
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
I suppose that if all else fails you can try throwing candy at them. Lord knows that kids are hardly ever impressionable and cannot be talked into doing crazy things. And the fact that they are hormonal teenagers would HARDLY make the prospect of 70 virgins enticing. Heck, just because they have been recruited to strap EXPLOSIVES onto themselves. Yep, those kids would back right down.

Perhaps it is not Yo-yo that has been brainwashed?
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24thcenstfan
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
Good to see you around Yo-Yo! :) Just ignore Somerled. He has some issues that he is obviously, and quite rudely, taking out on you. Best wishes to you! :yes:
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Some tough talkers here. Wonder how tough they would really be if they found themselves in the line of fire and in harms way ?

If to ask the question is rude - so be it - it still needs to be asked.
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
I could ask you the same thing. I myself at the very least have my training to fall back upon. You yourself have not even been in a training exercise I bet. How can you state that soldiers should take certain actions when you are totally ignorant of combat?
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
somerled
Oct 18 2004, 12:12 AM
Some tough talkers here. Wonder how tough they would really be if they found themselves in the line of fire and in harms way ?

If to ask the question is rude - so be it - it still needs to be asked.

I feel like a broken record here. :banghead:

Do I need to repost the story about the teenager who was peacefully stopped from setting off his bomb? A quick search could find a dozen similar stories.

Asking how Yo-yo would react if confronted by a similar situation was a fair question. Suggesting that he is lying about his answer because he has been "indoctrinated" is another matter. That is what I call rude and uncalled for.

Stop being such an ignorant twit.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
When did I suggest he was lying ?
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