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Which Camp Are You In?
Topic Started: Sep 15 2004, 07:33 AM (756 Views)
Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
I have to disagree with you on Rejoined and Badda Bing. Farrell's acting in Rejoined was some of her best. I really felt her sadness and sense of loss. Didn't you get that after she was willing to give up everything to be with her again? Not to mention the conversation with Sisko.

Lots and lots and lots of DS9 shows made you think. Several times the writers used real events as inspiration for a show. The Maquis was inspired by the Oklahoma City bombing. We were running around looking for Islamic terrorists as the Federation first suspected it was Bajor, and shocked to find it was one of thier own.

What about In the Pale Moonlight? Didn't that make you think? Or Dr. Bashir, I Presume? How about Inter Armn Enim Silent Leges? Duet? Past Tense? I can keep going if you like.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
^^^
Nah, no need to continue. ;)
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Drex
Captain
captain_proton_au
Sep 17 2004, 05:03 PM
Dandandat
Sep 17 2004, 08:02 AM

DS9 was a good trek in that it made the viewer think, it wasn’t cut and dry.

When exactly did it make you think?, and did it make you think any more regularly than the other series?

Did VGR tackle politics? Religion? War? Nope. :)

Can you give me things that made you think in VGR?
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gdog243
Rear Admiral
Lots and Lots of technobabble. :D
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Fesarius
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Admiral
^^^
LOL. But that was interesting to hear, if confusing. ;)
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Reverend_Doyle
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Prophet of Dagon
I am 'Liked VOY; disliked or indifferent to DS9'

I started watching DS9 from the beginning and I noticed that something was missing...where's the Trek?? It's right there in the title!! They're not going anywhere!! It didn't get interesting for me until the Dominion war, the ending of which (in the final episode) was a HUGE letdown. DS9 was a good idea for supporting characters but not to base a whole series on.

The Rev
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captain_proton_au
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A Robot in Disguise

The Sisko
Sep 17 2004, 12:03 PM

Lots and lots and lots of DS9 shows made you think. Several times the writers used real events as inspiration for a show. The Maquis was inspired by the Oklahoma City bombing. We were running around looking for Islamic terrorists as the Federation first suspected it was Bajor, and shocked to find it was one of thier own.

What about In the Pale Moonlight? Didn't that make you think? Or Dr. Bashir, I Presume? How about Inter Armn Enim Silent Leges? Duet? Past Tense? I can keep going if you like.

Marquis: Well TNG started the Marquis stories, I would rate 'Pre-emptive strike' as a better story than any of the DS9 ones, except for maybe 'For the Uniform'

I found DS9's The Marquis a tad slow


Inter arnem enim slient leges: - an absolutley brilliant ep, this is one of my favourites, Section 31 was one of the best elements of DS9, and this ep one of the best of DS9

It was a tense thriller, but as for messages I dont really think it delivers any parralells to the current world, Section 31 was shown like the CIA is in some movies, never getting caught out , never making mistakes, which we know is not true in real life.

Bashir was the most likely candidate for recruitment by Section 31 given his superior intellect, but I still maintain Siddig is bland, IMO the rest of the cast make this ep not him

Dr Bashir, I presume: Of course I like this ep since Picardo is in it, but I dont really think the theme of genetic manipulation was delved into enough here, mainly just a quick speech by the advocate general at the end, this ep was more about Bashir's relationship with his parents

Past Tense: Yeah one of the few that I agree that had a message brought forward stronger than examples in other series, you had lots going on here - the power of the Bill Gates type character, a real feeling of the sanctuarys being something we may be headed for, and a good dealing of the theme that 'its easy to forget' the worlds troubles.

One small comment - there was a noticeable absence of hispanics in the sanctuarys, DS9 carried the plight of african americans well in the series, but the absence of hispanics in this story nmade it feel a bit biased

In the pale moonlight - a good ep, but I didnt really see any distinct parrallels between the Dominion/ Alpha quad war with specific conflicts in the world. It was a good ep , with lots of Garak, but as there are many examples of one side decieving an ally to get into a war throughout history, no It didnt really make me think. Whats the closest parrallel?, Churchill not warning the americans about Pearl harbour perhaps?
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captain_proton_au
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A Robot in Disguise

TrekkieBez
Sep 19 2004, 06:09 AM
captain_proton_au
Sep 17 2004, 05:03 PM
Dandandat
Sep 17 2004, 08:02 AM

DS9 was a good trek in that it made the viewer think, it wasn’t cut and dry.

When exactly did it make you think?, and did it make you think any more regularly than the other series?

Did VGR tackle politics? Religion? War? Nope. :)

Can you give me things that made you think in VGR?

What made me think in Voyager, plenty!

This is the crux of my favouritism of Voyager over DS9, the stories were far more varied to DS9 or TNG for that matter, which meant far more situations could be explored. Added to that, I think the main cast of Voyager gelled better , compared to the main cast of DS9 ( not the secondary characters).

It would provide for a better argument if you compared episodes in DS9 to similar episodes in Voyager and went on to expand into "well, they did this better, this scene was done better..." etc, yad yada yada

When you generalise the show into a sentence like you have in what I have quoted, it doesnt make for a solid foundation.


What made me think in Voyager - well there was plenty.....



Caretaker - One's Values above survival

Phage - facing a disability

Emanations - what is after life?

Jetrel - what would you do if you met the man who killed your family

The 37's - what if there really are alien abductions here on earth

Prototype - like in the matrix, what happens when unfeeling machines take over a world

Death wish - is eternity a sentence of eternal depression

Life signs - a day as a normal person or a couple of weeks on the death bed

Innocence - how we make assumptions that can do damage

The thaw - what if you were stuck in an hell for the rest of your life

The chute - scary clostrophobic feelings of what if you are innocent but put in prison

Remember - tricks that can be used to rewrite history, and how genocide can be covered up

Sacred ground - the value of a leap of faith

Distant Origin - the type of thinking that gives rise to some theories that life here may have stared somewhere else

Scorpion - "its in my nature"

Day of honour - revisiting childhood beliefs

Nemesis - "its hard to forget the hate"

Revulsion - prejudice

Year of hell - Jonah and his whale

Mortal coil - facing death

Living witness - how history is written by the victors

Extreme risk - dealing with depression

In the flesh - get to know thyne enemy

Thirty days - when should one break the prime directive

Latent image - will AI ever compare to the human mind

The Disease - what would you do if desperate enough

Juggernaut - anti-pollution message

11:59 - choosing family over commercialism

Equinox - again what would you do if desperate enough

Survival Instinct - battling post traumatic stress

Barge of the Dead - challenging ones belief

Dragons teeth - once conquerors , always conquerors?

One Small step - risking life for iconic treasures

Pathfinder - communication is our greatest need

Blink of an eye - how one religious event can change history

Memorial - uncovering genocide

Lifeline - will AI be on the same level as our friends or family

Critical Care - everyones right to healthcare

Lineage - pros and cons of genetic manipulation

Phrophecy - how we can be influenced by religous text

Workforce - even in different circumstance we can still be drawn to a mate

Author, Author - AI rights



If i did such a list for DS9 it would be just as extensive, but would be nowhere near as varied
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captain_proton_au
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A Robot in Disguise

After thinking about this, the episodes that provoked the strongest reation from me for the most relevant messages are:


TNG:

Measure of a man
Darmok

DS9:

FarBeyond The Stars
Past Tense

Voy:
Jetrel
Remember

ENT:
Chosen Realm
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Drex
Captain
Every ep you mention in the "VGR Makes Me Think" list, CPA, can be equalled or improved upon by a TNG or DS9 show.

I did a select few that I disagree with strongly, okay?

Quote:
 
Caretaker - One's Values above survival

Change of Heart

Quote:
 
Phage - facing a disability

The Siege of AR-558
It's Only a Paper Moon

Quote:
 
Emanations - what is after life?

What You Leave Behind
Tapestry

Quote:
 
Jetrel - what would you do if you met the man who killed your family

Prodigal Daughter
Emissary
Through the Looking-Glass

Quote:
 
The 37's - what if there really are alien abductions here on earth

Little Green Men

Quote:
 
Innocence - how we make assumptions that can do damage

Playing God

Quote:
 
The thaw - what if you were stuck in an hell for the rest of your life

Battle Lines
Cause and Effect

Quote:
 
The chute - scary clostrophobic feelings of what if you are innocent but put in prison
Quote:
 

Hard Time
Tribunal

Quote:
 
Remember - tricks that can be used to rewrite history
Living witness - how history is written by the victors

Past Tense
First Contact
Yesterday's Enterprise
Redemption
Unification

Quote:
 
Sacred ground - the value of a leap of faith

Most of DS9's Bajor episodes.

Quote:
 
Scorpion - "its in my nature"

The Abandoned
Hippocratic Oath
To the Death

Quote:
 
Mortal coil - facing death

Extreme Measures
Armageddon Game

Quote:
 
Lifeline - will AI be on the same level as our friends or family

His Way
Ship in a Bottle
The Measure of a Man
Badda-bang, badda-bing

Quote:
 
Lineage - pros and cons of genetic manipulation

Up the Long Ladder
Doctor Bashir, I Presume?

Quote:
 
Phrophecy - how we can be influenced by religous text

Destiny
Accession
The Reckoning

Quote:
 
Author, Author - AI rights

The Measure of a Man
Badda-bang, Badda-bing
Ship in a Bottle
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Drex
Captain
^^^ Quotes aren't working. Dammit.
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captain_proton_au
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A Robot in Disguise

Caretaker - One's Values above survival

TB:Change of Heart
Proton: Hmmm, roughly equal

-----------------------------------

Phage - facing a disability

TB:The Siege of AR-558
It's Only a Paper Moon

Proton: No, Nogs leg isnt life threatning,
Neelix tapped in the sick bay bed was more dramatic

-----------------------------------

Emanations - what is after life?
TB: What You Leave Behind
Tapestry

Proton: What are you refering to in WYLB?, Sisko?, there was no follow up
Tapestry was a better ep, but Q didnt really let Picard get to the after life, what was most impresive about emanations was the final twist that their souls may be indeed trapped by the rings of that planet.

---------------------------------------

Jetrel - what would you do if you met the man who killed your family

TB:Prodigal Daughter
Emissary
Through the Looking-Glass
Proton: No Jetrel wins here, far superior to similat themes in those three, Jetrel was accused of the destruction of a planet, a far more scary story

---------------------------------------

The 37's - what if there really are alien abductions here on earth

TB: Little Green Men
Proton: No, not even close, LGM was purely a comedy ep, and the link to roswell had been done many a time before in other sci fi series, The 37's tried to answer where some of the abductees ended up , LGM was just an alt time ep.
Although in terms of entertainment, I would call them equal

-----------------------------------------------

Innocence - how we make assumptions that can do damage
TB: Playing God
Proton: Playing God was just plain boring

------------------------------------------------

The thaw - what if you were stuck in an hell for the rest of your life
TB: Battle Lines
Cause and Effect
Proton: Hmmm, In CaE, they couldnt remember each loop, not as scary as facing fear, I dont really see the link with Battlelines, that was petty much a DS9 slaughterfest

----------------------------------------------------


The chute - scary clostrophobic feelings of what if you are innocent but put in prison
TB:Hard Time
Tribunal
Proton: Yes, Hardtime wins here

----------------------------------------------------

Remember - tricks that can be used to rewrite history

----------------------------------------------------

Living witness - how history is written by the victors
TB: Past Tense
First Contact
Yesterday's Enterprise
Redemption
Unification

Proton: These are all too dissimilar to Living Witness

--------------------------------------------------------

Sacred ground - the value of a leap of faith

TB: Most of DS9's Bajor episodes.

Proton: Most of DS9's Bajor episodes are just too dull to stay consciuos for, the only DS9 ep that compares to SG is 'The Covenant' which I would agree is better than SG

-----------------------------------------------------------

Scorpion - "its in my nature"

TB: The Abandoned
Hippocratic Oath
To the Death

Proton: I'd rate Scorpion as far better than The Abandoned and HO, about equal with TTD

------------------------------------------------------------

Mortal coil - facing death

TB: Extreme Measures
Armageddon Game

Proton: Again these eps arent similar enough EM beats MC, but MC beats AG

-----------------------------------------------------------

Lifeline - will AI be on the same level as our friends or family

TB: His Way
Ship in a Bottle
The Measure of a Man
Badda-bang, badda-bing

Proton: I dont see how SiaB raised the issue of AI becoming family.
His way and badda bing, oh please!!! Some of DS9's worst eps
I would rate MoaM as better than Lfeline, one of the best TNG eps

-------------------------------------------------

Quote:
 
Lineage - pros and cons of genetic manipulation


TB: Up the Long Ladder
Doctor Bashir, I Presume?

Proton: Up the long Ladder - you've got to be kidding!!!!!!!
Doctor Bashir - That comaprison is probably the closest one sop far, but Torres showed far more emotion than Bashir does - Lineage wins by a mile

------------------------------------------------------------

Prophecy - how we can be influenced by religous text

TB: Destiny
Accession
The Reckoning

Proton: Give me Klingons over bajorans anyday, although I do prefer Reckoning to Prophecy

--------------------------------------------------------------

Author, Author - AI rights

TB: The Measure of a Man
Badda-bang, Badda-bing
Ship in a Bottle

Proton: again with Badda - that episode sux, way beyond boring
I thought the symbolism in SiaB was way too general to be taken seriuosly
MoaM would beat AA however

Thanks for that TB, great to sink my teeth into the comparisons rather than people making vague generalisations.
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Drex
Captain
^^^ I'll give a full reply when I have more time. :)

As for the couple of places where you complained of "no follow-up" - that's what my point was. Episodes that made you think: those with a little ambiguity in the ending.
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captain_proton_au
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A Robot in Disguise

I'm still trying to get over the fact that you tried to say 'Up the Long Ladder' was better than anything :unsure: :ermm: :no:
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Drex
Captain
What I said was that it maskes you think about genengineering as much as Lineage.
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