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Star Trek : Liberal or Conservative
Topic Started: Sep 9 2004, 02:29 PM (627 Views)
gdog243
Rear Admiral
Fesarius
Sep 10 2004, 09:23 AM
And DS9 a conservative show? No. Watch Paste Tense--extremely liberal and agenda-oriented (PC).

What agenda. They were just presenting an issue and asking questions about it. Suffice it to say, when the episode was made, this was a major issue, and it still is.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
^^^
And I disagree. I was sickened by the PC-leaning script. But we don't have to agree with one another, either. :)
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Minuet
Sep 10 2004, 08:42 AM
Hi Dan - There is a choice on the poll for you. It is called "Not sure" :wow:

But I am “sure” that its nether or a combination of booth. There are aspects that can be describe as liberal and their are aspects that can be described as conservative.

We can sit examples of both all day.


1) Since it was already mentioned DS9 "Past Tense" did have a liberal tone to it, with the idea of setting up a social probes to help these peoples instead of just shuffling them away, But at the same time you had a man like Webb who clearly said he “didn’t want help” just to be let out so that he can find a job and support his family all by him self – clearly, a conservative point of view.

2) Take the Maquis, if the federation was truly the Liberal Socialist utopia that some would like to say it is, these men and woman would have gladly moved their lives away from the homes they built and relocate. Why would they do that, because it would have greatly benefited society and such an act is the cornerstone of socialism doing what is best for the state. But what did we see them do instead? They chose to take up arms to defend their homes, even against the federation if it was necessary - again clearly a conservative idea by today’s standers.

3) Look at the Picard Family. While Picard him self can be described as liberal (although he does have many conservative tendencies) it cannot be mistaken that his brother is very much conservative. Two brothers form the same family coming out on different ends on the political spectrum. I find this happening hard to believe in a Liberal Utopia.

4) What about all the warring on DS9 (or even with the Klingons on TOS)? Some of it preempted because of a suspected threat, some of the tactics used would not live up to today’s liberal standers.

5) One might say that religion was left out of star trek and that this is a very liberal point of view. But I say what about the Klingon, the Bjorn’s, as well as other alien religions? If you pay attention a lot of the aspects found in these belief systems, a lot of what is said about them rings with what we know of religion today. Its just that star trek in away only star trek can, takes the issues out of their controversial context and places them in a distant more easy to swallow manner. This is how you get people who don’t want to talk about a certain religious issue to talk about it. Of the top of my there is a seen in DS9 where Odo questions the beliefs that kira has, saying he didn’t understand how she could be so calm in the bad situation they where in. Kira explains to him (paraphrasing) “that’s the thing about faith, if you have it there is no need for an explanation, if you don’t nothing ever will explain it”. Was she just talking about the Bjorn religion or all religions?

We can go on and on like this all day, but the point is I wouldn’t be so quick to label Star Trek with any of the labels we use today, because non of them will fight right.

Think of it this way, Star Trek in some ways is supposed to be a modern day social commentary correct? Well we don’t live in a Liberal utopia so how can you have a modern day social commentary if you do not depict all of the ways of thinking we face today. What star trek does is depict them all, but takes what is good form them and leaves out what is bad, and then says see what we all can be someday?
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Fesarius
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^^^
Scotty,

That was an excellent post. I loved your explanation of Webb. The head security guy (seen also in The Big Goodbye if anyone cares ;)) was also quite sardonic sounding to me, until Sisko really got through to him ("What do you want me to do about it"?)
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
TOS was totally conservative.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Dandandat
Sep 10 2004, 02:26 PM
Minuet
Sep 10 2004, 08:42 AM
Hi Dan - There is a choice on the poll for you. It is called "Not sure"  :wow:

But I am “sure” that its nether or a combination of booth. There are aspects that can be describe as liberal and their are aspects that can be described as conservative.

We can sit examples of both all day.


1) Since it was already mentioned DS9 "Past Tense" did have a liberal tone to it, with the idea of setting up a social probes to help these peoples instead of just shuffling them away, But at the same time you had a man like Webb who clearly said he “didn’t want help” just to be let out so that he can find a job and support his family all by him self – clearly, a conservative point of view.


Number 1 - personal pride is not the exclusive realm of the conservatives and I find that assumption insulting.

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2) Take the Maquis, if the federation was truly the Liberal Socialist utopia that some would like to say it is, these men and woman would have gladly moved their lives away from the homes they built and relocate. Why would they do that, because it would have greatly benefited society and such an act is the cornerstone of socialism doing what is best for the state. But what did we see them do instead? They chose to take up arms to defend their homes, even against the federation if it was necessary - again clearly a conservative idea by today’s standers.


I don't follow this argument at all. Choosing to take up arms to defend ones home has nothing to do with Liberalism or Conservatism. It has to do with Nationalism. In fact, this argument would be saying that terrorists are conservative, because they have chosen to take up arms to defend thier homes. :shrug: Liberal as I may be I would never say something so insulting towards conservatives.

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3) Look at the Picard Family. While Picard him self can be described as liberal (although he does have many conservative tendencies) it cannot be mistaken that his brother is very much conservative. Two brothers form the same family coming out on different ends on the political spectrum. I find this happening hard to believe in a Liberal Utopia.


Another argument I don't follow. Picard's brother was clearly made out to be the more stubborn and intrasigent one. By the end of the show he was the one who bent towards Picard's views and realized that he had to let his son find his own way and that he could not continue to force the old ways on him. Clearly not an example of the writers finding the conservative path to be the correct one.

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4) What about all the warring on DS9 (or even with the Klingons on TOS)? Some of it preempted because of a suspected threat, some of the tactics used would not live up to today’s liberal standers.


I don't necessarily see taking up arms pre-emptively as a liberal vs conservative issue. That may be the case in current American politics - but as Wichita has clearly shown in previous posts many Democrat, liberal leaders such as Bill Clinton have taken up arms in a similar manner. Not to mention that the old USSR was as far left as you could get - and they had no qualms about taking up arms.

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5) One might say that religion was left out of star trek and that this is a very liberal point of view. But I say what about the Klingon, the Bjorn’s, as well as other alien religions? If you pay attention a lot of the aspects found in these belief systems, a lot of what is said about them rings with what we know of religion today. Its just that star trek in away only star trek can, takes the issues out of their controversial context and places them in a distant more easy to swallow manner. This is how you get people who don’t want to talk about a certain religious issue to talk about it. Of the top of my there is a seen in DS9 where Odo questions the beliefs that kira has, saying he didn’t understand how she could be so calm in the bad situation they where in. Kira explains to him (paraphrasing) “that’s the thing about faith, if you have it there is no need for an explanation, if you don’t nothing ever will explain it”. Was she just talking about the Bjorn religion or all religions?


Once again, I don't see religion as a purely liberal/conservative issue. Yes - the very far left (communists) don't believe in religion. But bone up on your far right. Hitler and the Nazis weren't big fans of religion either. There are many very religious people who are Liberals and frankly, your assumption that only conservatives believe in religion is once again very insulting.


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We can go on and on like this all day, but the point is I wouldn’t be so quick to label Star Trek with any of the labels we use today, because non of them will fight right.

Think of it this way, Star Trek in some ways is supposed to be a modern day social commentary correct? Well we don’t live in a Liberal utopia so how can you have a modern day social commentary if you do not depict all of the ways of thinking we face today. What star trek does is depict them all, but takes what is good form them and leaves out what is bad, and then says see what we all can be someday?


It seems to me that you are the one using the labels of today. You are looking at liberal and conservative through the eyes of an american who assumes that conservative = republican and liberal = democrat. The actual ideas reach much further then that limited view.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
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Number 1 - personal pride is not the exclusive realm of the conservatives and I find that assumption insulting.
It wasn't his personal pride that I was pointing out, but the fact that he didnt want a hand out or even a hand up for that matter, he just wanted to be let out so he could find a job and work for what he gets.

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I don't follow this argument at all. Choosing to take up arms to defend ones home has nothing to do with Liberalism or Conservatism. It has to do with Nationalism. In fact, this argument would be saying that terrorists are conservative, because they have chosen to take up arms to defend thier homes.  Liberal as I may be I would never say something so insulting towards conservatives.
Yes terrorists do have a conservative mind set, if they had a liberal one, they would embrace the liberalization of their countries and be happy with it. The liberal Muslims are the ones who aren’t joining the terrorist groups.

Also the Federation was the Maquis’s nation, so this idea that they are just being Nationalists doesn’t hold. If they truly had strong liberal socialists values as you want to say they do, they would gladly give up their homes and move where the federation said it was bets for them and best for the Federation. That would benefit the society just as much as feeding the pore would.

You are mixing up what you have in Canada with what you are trying to say star trek is. Canada can hardly be called Utopian Liberal society. Liberal yes but not Utopian Liberal, so while you say to your self “hey I consider my self liberal, and I would do as the Maquis. So that trait must also be a liberal trait” you would be wrong, that is just the reality that while you may be liberal, you have conservative tendencies as well.

Unless I may be misunderstanding you when you say Utopian Liberal. When I read that I see something that is 100% liberal. Do you actual mean a Liberal way of thinking with out all the bad things that come with a liberal way of thinking? In that case I would believe we are talking about the same thing because conservatism is the way to combat the bad things that come with the liberal way of thinking. So a balanced mixture of the two (Which is what I am suggesting) is what star trek is all about.

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Another argument I don't follow. Picard's brother was clearly made out to be the more stubborn and intrasigent one. By the end of the show he was the one who bent towards Picard's views and realized that he had to let his son find his own way and that he could not continue to force the old ways on him. Clearly not an example of the writers finding the conservative path to be the correct one.
Your interpretation of this in my opinion is incorrect. Picard Brother didn’t become more liberal by the end of the episode he just came to the realization that he could not make his son what his son wasn’t. He had to relies that his values weren’t the end all be all of the universe but he did not give them up for him self. Also what about the seen where the liberal Picard need his conservative brother to bring the world into prospective after the Borg assimilation? Nether man was shown to be the better, they where shown to be different and how the differences could work together and help each other out. A message we all should heed.

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I don't necessarily see taking up arms pre-emptively as a liberal vs conservative issue. That may be the case in current American politics - but as Wichita has clearly shown in previous posts many Democrat, liberal leaders such as Bill Clinton have taken up arms in a similar manner. Not to mention that the old USSR was as far left as you could get - and they had no qualms about taking up arms.
Ok fine, its easy for you to sit here an pick apart ever aspect of my evidence to show how it can also be seen as liberal. Defend your stance, site examples of how Star Trek is only liberal and we will see if it hold up to this type of scrutiny.

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Once again, I don't see religion as a purely liberal/conservative issue. Yes - the very far left (communists) don't believe in religion. But bone up on your far right. Hitler and the Nazis weren't big fans of religion either. There are many very religious people who are Liberals and frankly, your assumption that only conservatives believe in religion is once again very insulting.
This example was not meant to show conservative vs liberal but that star trek takes all points of view and mixes them together. Many like to proclaim that star trek leaves religion alone, but they would be wrong. Just like many proclaim star trek is liberal and are wrong as well.

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It seems to me that you are the one using the labels of today. You are looking at liberal and conservative through the eyes of an american who assumes that conservative = republican and liberal = democrat. The actual ideas reach much further then that limited view.
No Min I am using the words in their purest meanings. You are the one who is trying to equate the labels to what you see in Canada. You consider your country to be Liberal and since you see some of that in star trek you assume that star trek must be liberal. You are falling to understand that Canada is not only liberal but conservative as well. So while you see some of the traditional Canadian values in star trek, does not mean those are liberal ones. It means it is a mixer of the two, just like Canada and America are a mixture of the two.

Frankly I don’t understand this desire of yours to say that star trek, which is based in the belief that all view points are equal, is only one sided when it comes to the labels of conservative and liberal. If it was only liberal than star trek it’s self would fail the test it puts before us. If that is what you want to believe I can't stop you, but its kind of sad when thinking about the message star trek is trying to depict.
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Hoss
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Socially liberal, but with some conservative ideals like personal responsibility and accountability thrown in for good measure.

As far as I can tell, fiscally it was communism.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Dan I think you did misunderstand what I meant by Liberal Utopia.

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Do you actual mean a Liberal way of thinking with out all the bad things that come with a liberal way of thinking?


Bingo - that is why I specifically used the word Utopia. I think Utopia is unattainable - it is perfection, but perfection does not exist. Canada is definitely not a utopia, so I don't quite get why you would think I am equating Star Trek to Canada in any way shape or form. And you are assuming I would do as the maquis. I have not said I would in any of my comments.

Looking at 38957's comments after yours I definitely agree with him on the social liberalism. Things like equality of the sexes and equality of various ethnicities is definitely a liberal mindset at least in the 60's and 70's - although in all fairness, not exclusively these days As for personal responsibility - I guess that I don't agree that this is exclusive to conservative thinking. Liberals also believe in personal responsiblilty - but conservatives love to say that liberals do not believe in this. As for fiscally - communism would be correct for TOS and the beginning of TNG - but later shows show capitalism alive and well. Of course capitalism does not equate to conservative, which is another veiw conservatives have of liberals that gets my back up.

Your comments seem to equate certain things to conservatism that I frankly don't think are exclusive to conservatism. Hence my comment that you are looking through the view of American politics.
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gdog243
Rear Admiral
Quick question. If the federation doesn't have any money, how did they get gold pressed latinum. This is something I haven't really liked about trek, the fact that the federation says they don't need money or wealth any more. I'm glad DS9 tried to fix this, but I think the damage had already been done.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Minuet
Sep 10 2004, 08:28 PM
Your comments seem to equate certain things to conservatism that I frankly don't think are exclusive to conservatism. Hence my comment that you are looking through the view of American politics.

Fine - what traits do you equate exclusively to conservative and what to liberal? Defend your argument that Star Trek is exclusively liberal.

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Things like equality of the sexes and equality of various ethnicities is definitely a liberal mindset at least in the 60's and 70's - although in all fairness, not exclusively these days 
Since 3/4 of star trek have been made in these days and the fact that equality of the sexes and equality of various ethnicities is not exclusive to liberal way of thinking this fact cannot be used to prove star trek is liberal. We should not mistake conservative with bigotry just because some conservatives are biggest. Some liberals have a problem with seeing the equality of people as well.
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Minuet
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Probably more on the social end. I think the economy of the 24th century is just not clearly laid out and does not fit a mold at all. The liberal attitude is definitely on social issues.

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Since 3/4 of star trek have been made in these days and the fact that equality of the sexes and equality of various ethnicities is not exclusive to liberal way of thinking this fact cannot be used to prove star trek is liberal. We should not mistake concretive with bigotry just because some conservatives are biggest. Some liberals have a problem with seeing the equality of people as well.


As you said - 3/4 of the shows were made in the days when equality was an issue dividing liberal and conservative. It may not be an issue today - but you must look at it through the lens of the times in which it was made. It was definitely a liberal attitude in it's time.

In addition a very loose attitude towards sex would certainly be more on the liberal end of the spectrum, even today. The DS9 episode where Dax is reunited with her former spouse did not even question the fact that both were female, but still in love. Certainly not a conservative viewpoint.

Other social issues

When was the last time on Star Trek that anyone had to pay for health care. If someone is hurt the doctors help. No asking if they have insurance, or how they are to pay.

Children all go to a wonderful, public school system. No one mentions private school. Not even Bashir, as I can recall. All children seem to have access to wonderful child care.

Everyone seems to have access to all they need, without any concern of paying for it. Poverty is unseen - except on undeveloped planets.

On DS9 the Maquis are given some sympathy - but overall thier tactics are condemned. If terrorism comes from the conservative end of the spectrum - as you indicated earlier - then it certainly does not get approval. Just the usual Liberal nod to the rightness of the cause - not the methods. The Maquis were forced back into the Federation's way of doing things on Voyager.

All your examples were ones that I don't consider to be conservative. Do you have any others?
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Quote:
 
As you said - 3/4 of the shows were made in the days when equality was an issue dividing liberal and conservative. It may not be an issue today - but you must look at it through the lens of the times in which it was made. It was definitely a liberal attitude in it's time.
No I said that 3/4 of the show where made in a time when equality was not a liberal vs conservative issue, just an ignorant vs non ignorant one. Only TOS (72 episodes) was made during a time when equality was a liberal vs conservative issue everything else for the most part was not.

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In addition a very loose attitude towards sex would certainly be more on the liberal end of the spectrum, even today. The DS9 episode where Dax is reunited with her former spouse did not even question the fact that both were female, but still in love. Certainly not a conservative viewpoint


Does Picard have an attitude toward sex that can be labeled as liberal? No he does not, is he very reserved with sexual matters and his sexuality. He didn’t even tell his closest friends that he met a woman in "captains holiday" let alone that he had sex with her. How about Worf? He wanted to marry ever woman he slept with

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When was the last time on Star Trek that anyone had to pay for health care. If someone is hurt the doctors help. No asking if they have insurance, or how they are to pay.


This can be equated to a non-issue when specking of liberal and concretive in the relm of star trek. Since we don’t really know how the monitory system in the star trek future works we really cant say that health care is free.

Further Conservatives wouldn’t mind a totally free healthcare system as long as they didn’t have to pay a disproportionate amount toward it so that people who don’t work can have accesses to it. In star trek since everything is free thanks to the replicateors and a monitory system they haven’t really defined why would one pay for healthcare? Since they can replicate you a new hart you don’t have to wait on line for one. This is just an optimistic look at the future, an idea that with advanced technology we can eliminate some of the problems we face, it is not the exclusive embodiment of a liberal point of view.


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Children all go to a wonderful, public school system. No one mentions private school. Not even Bashir, as I can recall. All children seem to have access to wonderful child care.


Again this is just a result of advanced technology, since the federation has an infinite amount of resources they are able to provide these things with out it being a burden to its people. Again Conservatives would not object to all children getting an excellently education, they just object to the idea of paying a disproportionate amount to it and the way current governments mismanage the system. Since in star trek monitory value is not defined, and we just assume every thing is perfect and every one works and the government has an infinite amount of resources, it would be wrong to believe a conservative would object to children getting the education.

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Everyone seems to have access to all they need, without any concern of paying for it. Poverty is unseen - except on undeveloped planets.


Again the same argument, this is doe to the fact that the federation has an advanced level of technology. Of cores every one has what they need since they can all walk up to a replicateor and ask for it. This is not the embodiment of liberal ideals, one is not sacrificing for the other, all just have what they need.

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On DS9 the Maquis are given some sympathy - but overall thier tactics are condemned. If terrorism comes from the conservative end of the spectrum - as you indicated earlier - then it certainly does not get approval. Just the usual Liberal nod to the rightness of the cause - not the methods. The Maquis were forced back into the Federation's way of doing things on Voyager.
The methods are not in question it is the ideals that are, The people of the Maqui have chosen to take up arms which the federation disproves of, but the fact still remains that they have the ideals in the first place, that these ideals are alive and well in the star trek future. Also the Maqui where never vilified (even when it came to Sisko and Edington, it was Sisko who played the villain) they where just seen as an entity that had to be dealt with because they where causing instability in that section of space for the Federation. The cause was always seen as noble and they got a lot of respect form the other characters. It just so happened that the Maqui where doing something that was indirectly hurting the federation and the federation had to stop it. But this did not stop many of star fleet officers form helping that cause even if it went against their federation orders.

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The Maquis were forced back into the Federation's way of doing things on Voyager.
Where they? I am not to sure about this, I think a lot of their spirit lived on even though they where in federation uniform. Checotah always spoke out against the liberal way Janway did things. He always took the more conservative approach to a situation. He acted as the counter part to Janway and her uber-liberal way of thinking and doing things.

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All your examples were ones that I don't consider to be conservative. Do you have any others?
Well then you will have to explain to me what you think is exclusively conservative.
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Swidden
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Adm. Gadfly-at-large; Provisional wRench-fly at large
I think it really depends on which series you watch. TOS and DS9 are them most conservative. I think in the long run the franchise has done a decent job of presenting different perspectives by being either one or the other as needed.

Guess this means we need to add the choice "Both" to this poll... :D :angel: :whistle:
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Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
Overall, I would have to say that the setting itself is left leaning given the several Marxist ideals set down for the 24th Century. No money, unified world government, no scare resources, total equality, lack of corporations, etc. However, that said, I think as Swidden pointed out, that each series has very different overtones.

TOS, from what I have seen, is pretty balanced. For the 60s, it's pretty liberal with a black woman on the bridge, joined by an Asian helmsman, and a Russian whatever it is Chekov does. Not to mention an alien from a godless society, who is, for all intents and purposes, superior to humans. However, the aura of the Cold War is very much present with the Romulans and Klingons, and no apologies are made for whatever the Federation must do to defend themselves.

TNG is the most liberal of all shows and actually establishes the PC Prime Directive, as well as the fact that there is no money in the 24th century. Even given the choice to destroy an unstoppable enemy is diverted by thier concionces.

DS9 was also pretty balanced, yes, you have the conservative aspect of a no compromise all out war with the Dominion no matter the cost, but tempered with liberal ideal shows such as Past Tense and Far Beyond the Stars.

Voyager I don't think has any affiliation. I have rarely seen a political/social commentary show done by them, and for the most part seems focused on fighting aliens.

Enterprise is also balanced by the ideals in First Contact and setting up the utopia without poverty and war but conservative in thier failed 9/11 parody.
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