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Ol' Jimmy sure knows how to pick a winner
Topic Started: Aug 19 2004, 05:26 AM (404 Views)
Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
James Earl Carter, the Magnificent Legend in His Own Mind, nearly proclaims from upon high that everyone ought to accept the Venezuelan recall results which appeared to overwhelmingly show Venesuelans voted to keep President Hugo Chavez.
Quote:
 
But former President Jimmy Carter and the Organization of American States endorsed the results of Sunday's vote, which saw one of the biggest turnouts in Venezuela's history, and urged everybody to accept the outcome.

There you have it, Jimmy Carter said so, so it must be fact. But wait, exit polls show something else, as the Associated Press reported.
Quote:
 
A U.S. firm's exit poll that said President Hugo Chavez would lose a recall referendum has landed in the center of a controversy following his resounding victory.

"Exit Poll Results Show Major Defeat for Chavez," the survey, conducted by Penn, Schoen & Berland Associates, asserted even as Sunday's voting was still on. But in fact, the opposite was true - Chavez ended up trouncing his enemies and capturing 59 percent of the vote.

Any casual observer of the 2000 U.S. presidential elections knows exit polls can at times be unreliable. But the poll has become an issue here because the opposition, which mounted the drive to force the leftist leader from office, insists it shows the results from the vote itself were fraudulent. The opposition also claims electronic voting machines were rigged, but has provided no evidence.

Ah, no evidence they say? Well, that's not exactly the truth. The International Herald Tribune is reporting that there is evidence of fraud.
Quote:
 
Evidence of foul play has surfaced. In the town of Valle de la Pascua, where papers were counted at the initiative of those manning the voting center, the Yes vote had been cut by more than 75 percent, and the entire voting material was seized by the national guard shortly after the difference was established.

Three machines in a voting center in the state of Bolivar that has generally voted against Chávez all showed the same 133 votes for the Yes option, and higher numbers for the No option. Two other machines registered 126 Yes votes and much higher votes for the No. The opposition alleges that these machines, which can both send and receive information, were reprogrammed to start adjudicating all votes to the No option after a given number of Yes votes has been registered.

Of course many Leftists will deny the likelihood of fraud, but as time progress those denials are beginning to appear farcical.

Yes, Jimmy Carter really knows how to pick a winner.
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gvok
Unregistered

Can you define what you mean by "leftist"? Does it mean Socialist, Democrat, or anyone who disagrees with Bush?
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24thcenstfan
Member Avatar
Something Wicked This Fae Comes
Dwayne
Aug 19 2004, 06:26 AM
Of course many Leftists will deny the likelihood of fraud

On the contrary, I think some Leftists are not going to deny there was fraud...just that the fraud came in the form of outside interference in the election process (namely at the hands of the US).

These two articles (opinion pieces) were linked at another site I was just at:

The War On Democracy

US Revealed to be Secretly Funding Opponents of Chavez


By the way, I am not endorsing these articles. Just passing on a little bit of information.


Personally, what I would like to know more about this company: ChoicePoint
ChoicePoint Link #2 :ermm:
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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
24thcenstfan
Aug 19 2004, 09:35 AM
Dwayne
Aug 19 2004, 06:26 AM
Of course many Leftists will deny the likelihood of fraud

On the contrary, I think some Leftists are not going to deny there was fraud...just that the fraud came in the form of outside interference in the election process (namely at the hands of the US).

These two articles (opinion pieces) were linked at another site I was just at:

The War On Democracy

US Revealed to be Secretly Funding Opponents of Chavez


By the way, I am not endorsing these articles. Just passing on a little bit of information.


Personally, what I would like to know more about this company: ChoicePoint
ChoicePoint Link #2 :ermm:

Oh yes, let's be clear ... many Leftists will deny that another Leftist is capable of fraud.
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gvok
Unregistered

Dwayne, it would be helpful if you defined what you mean by "leftist". I'm not sure how big of a category you envision this group to be.
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24thcenstfan
Member Avatar
Something Wicked This Fae Comes
Dwayne
Aug 19 2004, 11:11 AM
24thcenstfan
Aug 19 2004, 09:35 AM
Dwayne
Aug 19 2004, 06:26 AM
Of course many Leftists will deny the likelihood of fraud

On the contrary, I think some Leftists are not going to deny there was fraud...just that the fraud came in the form of outside interference in the election process (namely at the hands of the US).

These two articles (opinion pieces) were linked at another site I was just at:

The War On Democracy

US Revealed to be Secretly Funding Opponents of Chavez


By the way, I am not endorsing these articles. Just passing on a little bit of information.


Personally, what I would like to know more about this company: ChoicePoint
ChoicePoint Link #2 :ermm:

Oh yes, let's be clear ... many Leftists will deny that another Leftist is capable of fraud.

No that isn't clear. Are you accusing me of something or are you referring to someone else?
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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
24thcenstfan
Aug 19 2004, 10:21 AM
Dwayne
Aug 19 2004, 11:11 AM
24thcenstfan
Aug 19 2004, 09:35 AM
Dwayne
Aug 19 2004, 06:26 AM
Of course many Leftists will deny the likelihood of fraud

On the contrary, I think some Leftists are not going to deny there was fraud...just that the fraud came in the form of outside interference in the election process (namely at the hands of the US).

These two articles (opinion pieces) were linked at another site I was just at:

The War On Democracy

US Revealed to be Secretly Funding Opponents of Chavez


By the way, I am not endorsing these articles. Just passing on a little bit of information.


Personally, what I would like to know more about this company: ChoicePoint
ChoicePoint Link #2 :ermm:

Oh yes, let's be clear ... many Leftists will deny that another Leftist is capable of fraud.

No that isn't clear. Are you accusing me of something or are you referring to someone else?

Many is not all, and I never said you, so no, I have not accused you of a thing.
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ds9074
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Admiral
I dont think you can second guess an election on the basis of an exit poll. Those possible cases of fraud should be investigated but their comes a point where you have to accept the result and move on.
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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
ds9074
Aug 19 2004, 10:46 AM
I dont think you can second guess an election on the basis of an exit poll. Those possible cases of fraud should be investigated but their comes a point where you have to accept the result and move on.

In a close race, I'd agree, exit poll results should not be trusted, but when exit poll results are diametrically opposed by a large margin to "official tallies", then I tend to think something is amiss.

Then when faced with the situation in Valle de la Pascua and in Bolivar, and then couple that with exit poll results, you are hard pressed to reach no conclusion other than there is a high likelihood of some fraud on the part of Chavez.

What I find interesting about Carter and other natural allies of Chavez is their willingness to whitewash the results from the very begining.
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
ds9074
Aug 19 2004, 09:46 AM
I dont think you can second guess an election on the basis of an exit poll. Those possible cases of fraud should be investigated but their comes a point where you have to accept the result and move on.

Looking back to our 2000 presidential elections. Most of the networks were predicting Florida based on exit polls before the actual polls closed! For example, I remember Peter Jennings reporting that Gore took Florida ONE HOUR before polls closed in Pensacola (huge Navy Air Station there) and the other counties in the CENTRAL time zone.
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ds9074
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Admiral
Quote:
 
Then when faced with the situation in Valle de la Pascua and in Bolivar, and then couple that with exit poll results, you are hard pressed to reach no conclusion other than there is a high likelihood of some fraud on the part of Chavez.

I cant jump to that conclusion. I dont know the full situation but I dont think you can assume there has been fraud. Considering the amount of opposition to Chavez and the resources avalible to them they have a vested interest in casting doubt on the result. It needs investigating, the monitors need to be following up those reports.
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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
ds9074
Aug 19 2004, 02:46 PM
Quote:
 
Then when faced with the situation in Valle de la Pascua and in Bolivar, and then couple that with exit poll results, you are hard pressed to reach no conclusion other than there is a high likelihood of some fraud on the part of Chavez.

I cant jump to that conclusion. I dont know the full situation but I dont think you can assume there has been fraud. Considering the amount of opposition to Chavez and the resources avalible to them they have a vested interest in casting doubt on the result. It needs investigating, the monitors need to be following up those reports.

Well, of course you wouldn't ... you're a natural ally to the leftist Chavez.

But the fact that when the paper ballot was compared to the electronic ballot, there was a 75% difference and then the Venezuelan national guard seazed the materials once that difference was discovered says way more than the convoluted logic you're operating under.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Dwayne, before I call you out for being insulting again I am going to give you a chance to explain exactly what you mean by the following statement

Quote:
 
Well, of course you wouldn't ... you're a natural ally to the leftist Chavez.


I am going to tell you that to me this sounds very much like an insult.
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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
Minuet
Aug 19 2004, 04:12 PM
Dwayne, before I call you out for being insulting again I am going to give you a chance to explain exactly what you mean by the following statement

Quote:
 
Well, of course you wouldn't ... you're a natural ally to the leftist Chavez.


I am going to tell you that to me this sounds very much like an insult.

Is being leftist an insult?

And if not, then is it not reasonable to believe that a leftist would naturally ally themselves with another leftist?

Now faced with solid evidence - not proof, but evidence - of fraud in an election, someone decides they cannot jump to the conclusion there was a high likelihood of some fraud on the part of the Chavez regime.

Now, based on political leanings, I attribute this inability to conclude at least a likelihood of fraud to a natural political alignment between said person and that of the Chavez regime.

It seems some people are very thin-skinned.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
It's not a matter of being thin skinned. It's the source of the comment. You usually use the term leftist as an insult. Also, just being on the left doesn't mean that people are going to agree on every point. Just as people on the right don't always agree on everything.

As a matter of fact you should go back and read Admiralbill's comments on Florida and the 2000 elections. It sounds to me like he is on the side of not believing the exit polls. Admiralbill is definitely not a leftist.
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