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BREAKING NEWS - WMD; Exploded roadside bomb contains Sarin
Topic Started: May 17 2004, 09:44 AM (1,099 Views)
ImpulseEngine
Admiral
AB,
I'll gladly give credit when it's due and not before.

Right now, you and I are both expressing our opinions. Why? Because right now the facts are quite incomplete.
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html

Here's one.

The title is, "Sarin, Mustard Gas Discovered Separately in Iraq"

Please read the entire article.
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ANOVA
Vice Admiral
Quote:
 
I can think of a poster of two in here who might claim that the Bush Administration (or "Bush Jnr") planted it.


No No silly. It was the trilateral comission working with the gnomes of Zurich and the Elders of Zion.

I've got to go put my tin foil cap back on before 'they" find my broadcast beacon!

Ive believed that the evidence both physical and documenatary added to a disassembled WMD complex that was smeant tobe scattered until we left.

ANOVA
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Sgt. Jaggs
Member Avatar
How about a Voyager Movie
IE
Funny how they "stumble" upon sarin gas shells when the coalition (including Somerled's government) can't find them as hard as they try..... I wonder why that is........ :chin:
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Sgt. Jaggs
Member Avatar
How about a Voyager Movie
ImpulseEngine
May 17 2004, 03:11 PM
AB,
I'll gladly give credit when it's due and not before.

Right now, you and I are both expressing our opinions. Why? Because right now the facts are quite incomplete.

I'll remember your skepticism next time a news story goes your way. :yes:
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somerled
Member Avatar
Admiral MacDonald RN
Well - for starters - proper chemical and physical tests on any residues by a completely independant laboratory , not just some soldier running about with a test kit which is prone to contamination and well - not reliable.

Who's to say at this stage where the shell originated , proper chemical tests would go a long way to telling that.
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Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
ANOVA
May 17 2004, 07:24 PM
Quote:
 
I can think of a poster of two in here who might claim that the Bush Administration (or "Bush Jnr") planted it.


No No silly. It was the trilateral comission working with the gnomes of Zurich and the Elders of Zion.

I've got to go put my tin foil cap back on before 'they" find my broadcast beacon!


:loling: :loling: :loling:
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Intrepid2002
Member Avatar
UNGH!
somerled
May 17 2004, 11:26 AM

8247:
Now that's a thought . And Bush has got problems at home hasn't he ?
It would be a very nice distracton.

I for one wouldn't put it past the CIA.

People will believe what they will. I for one don't know who to believe but right now, I'm not ready to make any judgements. I too will wait for proper confirmation about this matter.

I wouldn't put anything past anyone right now. I'm very skeptical. What's the next great act of Bush? Gas prices miraculously go down? ;)

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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
Admiralbill_gomec
May 17 2004, 05:57 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html

Here's one.

The title is, "Sarin, Mustard Gas Discovered Separately in Iraq"

Please read the entire article.

I read this article earlier along with the one I linked above.

Your post implies that it supports your argument, but actually it supports mine. Here's an excerpt (bold is mine):
Quote:
 
The UNMOVIC official said the group needs to know more from the Bush administration before it's possible to determine if this is "old or new stuff. It is known that Iraq used sarin during the Iraq-Iran war, however.

Kimmitt said the shell belonged to a class of ordnance that Saddam's government said was destroyed before the 1991 Gulf war (search). Experts believe both the sarin and mustard gas weapons date back to that time.

"It was a weapon that we believe was stocked from the ex-regime time and it had been thought to be an ordinary artillery shell set up to explode like an ordinary IED and basically from the detection of that and when it exploded, it indicated that it actually had some sarin in it," Kimmitt said.


Here's another:
Quote:
 
The Iraqis were very capable of producing such shells in the 1980s but it's not as clear that they continued after the first Gulf War


Where's the support for your argument? Is this it?
Quote:
 
U.S. officials told Fox News that the shell discovery is a "significant" event.
Where are the supporting arguments to back up this "significant" claim? Let me guess, those U.S. officials are Republican, right?

Even Rumsfeld hasn't made the conclusions that you have.

Edit:
This link is a little more complete.
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
Jagalom Shaarek
May 17 2004, 08:12 PM
ImpulseEngine
May 17 2004, 03:11 PM
AB,
I'll gladly give credit when it's due and not before.

Right now, you and I are both expressing our opinions.   Why?  Because right now the facts are quite incomplete.

I'll remember your skepticism next time a news story goes your way. :yes:

You've already "remembered" it plenty of times... :yes: (Actually, it's my turn. :) But whose counting...)
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Sgt. Jaggs
Member Avatar
How about a Voyager Movie
You ARE a good sport. I'll remember that too! :lol: :kiss:


BTW, The kissing smiley does not cost me a punch in my Man Card does it? :huh:





~~~~*Official disclaimer: proximity alert activated. Jagalom Shaarek is not gay, though he defends and respects the rights and priveledges of gay Americans everywhere. No gays were offended at anytime during this post.*~~~~

end proximity alert warning.
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Just a question

Are the two soldiers treated for contact with sarin any less sick if it was an old shell or a new shell?
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
Jagalom Shaarek
May 17 2004, 09:03 PM
BTW, The kissing smiley does not cost me a punch  in my Man Card does it? :huh:

No it doesn't since you didn't mean it that way. But then again, please, I don't really know you... :D
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
Wichita
May 17 2004, 09:14 PM
Just a question

Are the two soldiers treated for contact with sarin any less sick if it was an old shell or a new shell?

No.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
WRT to alleged mustard gas find in Iraq.

Since it is Fox reporting the find , and they have proven in the past to be a long way from credible, I would be cautious about accepting their allegation at face value , as the ALLEGED find could well be politically motivated propoganda.

I will point out that neither the BBC or ABC have run the story alleging a find of Mustard Gas in Iraq - so either Fox made up the story - this wouldn't be the first time that they've done that - in the name of ratings and sales (perhaps to help the beleigered Bush Administration who are in a huge trouble over the widespread torture of Iraqis since the invasion and will be looking for distractions), or they have been unable to obtain credible information and a solid confirmation about the story.

Anyway - the shell could have come from a number sources.
Also from Fox About Mustard Gas
Quote:
 
making mustard gas is easier than making nerve gases (search) but harder than weaponizing industrial chemicals such as chlorine (this is right) ....Although there are no confirmed terrorist uses of mustard gas, there are unconfirmed reports that groups linked to Usama bin Laden's Al Qaeda network tried to obtain the ingredients to make mustard gas in Afghan labs.


I am not denying that Saddam has had access to Mustard Gas and that he has ordered its use , whever he still had any left (but more to the point - if any he might have had left (and stashed) was in a viable and usuable condition is highly doubtful).
Mustard gas is highly unstable and breaks down rapidly over a period of several years.
Take a look at the molecule :
Posted Image 1,1-thiobis(2-chloroethane) or 2,2'-dichlorodiethyl sulfide depending on the naming convention used. Its chemical formula is Cl-CH2-CH2-S-CH2-CH2-Cl , there is also the nitrogenated version, take out the =S= and add =N= , anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of organic chemistry will see that this is a highly unstable molecule just by looking at it's structure.
..C=S=C.. or ..C=N=C.. double bonds are very unstable and readily attacked by radicals , resulting in the splitting of the molecule into radicals of it, and smaller molecules.

I will not post the recipy for producing 2,2'-dichlorodiethyl sulfide (or nitride) here - those who are interested can refer the Merck Index.

Are you also aware that mustard gas has been used medically for decades - read about it Mustard Gas medical uses

and industrially - US DEPT OF LABOUR OH&S gives a long list of organics including mustard gas which are commonly encountered industrial materoals - typically in the manufacture of common plastics.
Quote:
 
Industry Group 286: Industrial Organic Chemicals



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2869 Industrial Organic Chemicals, Not Elsewhere Classified
Establishments primarily engaged in manufacturing industrial organic chemicals, not elsewhere classified. Important products of this industry include: (1) aliphatic and other acyclic organic chemicals, such as ethylene, butylene, and butadiene; acetic, chloroacetic, adipic, formic, oxalic, and tartaric acids and their metallic salts; chloral, formaldehyde, and methylamine; (2) solvents, such as amyl, butyl, and ethyl alcohols; methanol; amyl, butyl, and ethyl acetates; ethyl ether, ethylene glycol ether, and diethylene glycol ether; acetone, carbon disulfide and chlorinated solvents, such as carbon tetrachloride, perchloroethylene, and trichloroethylene; (3) polyhydric alcohols, such as ethylene glycol, sorbitol, pentaerythritol, synthetic glycerin; (4) synthetic perfume and flavoring materials, such as coumarin, methyl salicylate, saccharin, citral, citronellal, synthetic geraniol, ionone, terpineol, and synthetic vanillin; (5) rubber processing chemicals, such as accelerators and antioxidants, both cyclic and acyclic; (6) plasticizers, both cyclic and acyclic, such as esters of phosphoric acid, phthalic anhydride, adipic acid, lauric acid, oleic acid, sebacic acid, and stearic acid; (7) synthetic tanning agents, such as naphthalene sulfonic acid condensates; (8) chemical warfare gases; and (9) esters, amines, etc., of polyhydric alcohols and fatty and other acids. Establishments primarily engaged in manufacturing plastics materials and nonvulcanizable elastomers are classified in Industry 2821; those manufacturing synthetic rubber are classified in Industry 2822; those manufacturing essential oils are classified in Industry 2899; those manufacturing wood distillation products, naval stores and natural dyeing and tanning materials are classified in Industry 2861; those manufacturing manmade textile fibers are classified in Industries 2823 and 2824; those manufacturing specialty cleaning, polishing, and sanitation preparations are classified in Industry 2842; those manufacturing paints are classified in Industry 2851; those manufacturing area are classified in Industry 2873; those manufacturing organic pigments are classified in Industry 2865; those manufacturing inorganic pigments are classified in Industry 2816 and those manufacturing aliphatics and aromatics as by-products of petroleum refining are classified in Industry 2911. Distilleries engaged in the manufacture of grain alcohol for beverage purposes are classified in Industry 2085.

Acetaldehyde
Acetates, except natural acetate of lime
Acetic acid, synthetic
Acetic anhydride
Acetin
Acetone, synthetic
Acid esters and amines
Acids, organic
Acrolein
Acrylonitrile
Adipic acid
Adipic acid esters
Adiponitrile
Alcohol, aromatic
Alcohol, fatty: powdered
Alcohol, methyl: synthetic (methanol)
Alcohols, industrial: denatured (nonbeverage)
Algin products
Amyl acetate and alcohol
Aspartome
Bromochloromethane
Butadiene, made in chemical plants
Butyl acetate, alcohol, and propionate
Butyl ester solution of 2, 4-D
Butylene, made in chemical plants
Calcium oxalate
Camphor, synthetic
Caprolactam
Carbon bisulfide (disulfide)
Carbon tetrachloride
Casing fluids for curing fruits, spices, and tobacco
Cellulose acetate, unplasticized
Chemical warfare gases
Chloral
Chlorinated solvents
Chloroacetic acid and metallic salts
Chloroform
Chloropicrin
Citral
Citrates
Citric acid
Citronellal
Coumarin
Cream of tartar
Cyclopropane
Decahydronaphthalene
Dichlorodifluoromethane
Diethylcyclohexane (mixed isomers)
Diethylene glycol ether
Dimethyl divinyl acetylene (di-isopropenyl acetylene)
Dimethylhydrazine, unsymmetrical
Enzymes, except diagnostic substances
Esters of phosphoric, adipic, lauric, oleic, sebacic, and stearic acids
Esters of phthalic anhydride
Ethanol, industrial
Ether
Ethyl acetate, synthetic
Ethyl alcohol, industrial (nonbeverage)
Ethyl butyrate
Ethyl cellulose, unplasticized
Ethyl chloride
Ethyl ether
Ethyl formate
Ethyl nitrite
Ethyl perhydrophenanthrene
Ethylene glycol
Ethylene glycol ether
Ethylene glycol, inhibited
Ethylene oxide
Ethylene, made in chemical plants
Fatty acid esters and amines
Ferric ammonium oxalate
Flavors and flavoring materials, synthetic
Fluorinated hydrocarbon gases
Formaldehyde (formalin)
Formic acid and metallic salts
Fuel propellants, solid: organic
Fuels, high energy: organic
Geraniol, synthetic
Glycerin, except from fats (synthetic)
Grain alcohol, industrial (nonbeverage)
Hexamethylenediamine
Hexamethylenetetramine
High purity grade chemicals, organic: refined from technical grades
Hydraulic fluids, synthetic base
Industrial organic cyclic compounds
Ionone
Isopropyl alcohol
Ketone methyl ethyl
Ketone, methyl isobutyl
Laboratory chemicals, organic
Lauric acid esters
Lime citrate
Malononitrile, technical grade
Metallic salts of acyclic organic chemicals
Metallic stearate
Methanol, synthetic (methyl alcohol)
Methyl chloride
Methyl perhydrofluorine
Methyl salicylate
Methylamine
Methylene chloride
Monochlorodifluoromethane
Monomethylparaminophenol sulfate
Monosodium glutamate
Mustard gas
Naphthalene sulfonic acid condensates
Naphthenic acid soap
Normal hexyl decalin
Nuclear fuels, organic
Oleic acid esters
Organic acid esters
Organic chemicals, acyclic
Oxalates
Oxalic acid and metallic salts
Pentaerythritol
Perchloroethylene
Perfume materials, synthetic
Phosgene
Phthalates
Plasticizers, organic: cyclic and acyclic
Polyhydric alcohol esters and amines
Polyhydric alcohols
Potassium bitartrate
Propellants for missiles, solid: organic
Propylene glycol
Propylene, made in chemical plants
Quinuclidinol ester of benzylic acid
Reagent grade chemicals, organic: refined from technical grades,
Rocket engine fuel, organic
Rubber processing chemicals, organic: accelerators and antioxidants
Saccharin
Sebacic acid
Silicones
Sodium acetate
Sodium alginate
Sodium benzoate
Sodium glutamate
Sodium pentachlorophenate
Sodium sulfoxalate formaldehyde
Solvents, organic
Sorbitol
Stearic acid salts
Sulfonated naphthalene
Sweetners, synthetic
Tackifiers, organic
Tannic acid
Tanning agents, synthetic organic
Tartaric acid and metallic salts
Tartrates
Tear gas
Terpineol
Tert-butylated bis (p-phenoxyphenyl) ether fluid
Tetrachloroethylene
Tetraethyl lead
Thioglycolic acid, for permanent wave lotions
Trichloroethylene
Trichlorophenoxyacetic acid
Trichlorotrifluoroethane tetrachlorodifluoroethane isopropyl alcohol
Tricresyl phosphate
Tridecyl alcohol
Trimethyltrithiophosphite (rocket propellants)
Triphenyl phosphate
Vanillin, synthetic
Vinyl acetate


So it's definitely far from certain exactly where any mustard gas found might have originated - or even if it was manufactured for use as weapon.
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