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BREAKING NEWS - WMD; Exploded roadside bomb contains Sarin
Topic Started: May 17 2004, 09:44 AM (1,095 Views)
Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
This just in:

The article


Here's the article:

(05-17) 07:32 PDT BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) --

A roadside bomb containing sarin nerve agent exploded near a U.S. military convoy, but there were no casualties, the U.S. military said Monday.

"The Iraqi Survey Group confirmed today that a 155-millimeter artillery round containing sarin nerve agent had been found," said Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, the chief military spokesman in Iraq. "The round had been rigged as an IED (improvised explosive device) which was discovered by a U.S. force convoy.

"A detonation occurred before the IED could be rendered inoperable. This produced a very small dispersal of agent," he said.

In 1995, Japan's Aum Shinrikyo cult unleashed sarin gas in Tokyo's subways, killing 12 people and sickening thousands. In February of this year, Japanese courts convicted the cult's former leader, Shoko Asahara, and sentence him to be executed.

Developed in the mid-1930s by Nazi scientists, a single drop of sarin can cause quick, agonizing choking death. Small exposures can be treated with antidotes, if administered quickly.

(Bill's comments: Let's look at a few things. This was an improvised bomb, created from an artillery shell. Artillery shells would be used against enemy (i.e., Coalition) infantry. So, Saddam had artillery shells filled with a nerve agent, for use against us. Sarin is listed as a WMD. Do we still wish to believe that Saddam didn't have ACTIVE WMD programs and actual WMDs at the start of this war? Saddam claimed to have EIGHT HUNDRED AND TWELVE TONS of Sarin.)
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8247
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Apparently we look like this now
You know this is significant, and so do I. But these whackos like Somerled will say that it is an isolated incident, and still not a WMD.
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
I can think of a poster of two in here who might claim that the Bush Administration (or "Bush Jnr") planted it.
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Sgt. Jaggs
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How about a Voyager Movie
I suspect this will not be the last to be found. I hope they can be somehow tracked down and desrtoyed. This is precisely why the U.N. resolutions required him to declare his arsenal of WMD and then have it VERIFIED destroyed. The cease fire required this of Iraq after the gulf war. If they are not tracked down they could be anywhere and used at anytime on anyone.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
When it is confirmed properly - and not just by local military officials and a press report you might then perhaps have something.

I think the fact that neither the BBC , or the ABC or Yahoo News have picked up on the story says something about the credibility of the story. I do note that the Times has the exact same story.

One shell does not make a weapons program - it could have come from any number of places and had been smuggled into Iraq for all we know.

8247:
Now that's a thought . And Bush has got problems at home hasn't he ?
It would be a very nice distracton.

I for one wouldn't put it past the CIA.
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8247
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somerled
May 17 2004, 10:26 AM
When it is confirmed properly - and not just by local military officials and a press report you might then perhaps have something.

I think the fact that neither the BBC , or the ABC or Yahoo News have picked up on the story says something about the credibility of the story. I do note that the Times has the exact same story.

One shell does not make a weapons program - it could have come from any number of places and had been smuggled into Iraq for all we know.

8247:
Now that's a thought . And Bush has got problems at home hasn't he ?
It would be a very nice distracton.

I for one wouldn't put it past the CIA.

I rest my case
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
I'm not ready to jump on this bandwagon, but I'll keep an open mind. For now, here are my thoughts about this:

From the article:
Quote:
 
"The former regime had declared all such rounds destroyed before the 1991 Gulf War," Kimmitt said.


Quote:
 
He said he believed that insurgents who rigged the artillery shell as a bomb didn't know it contained the nerve agent, and that the dispersal of the nerve agent from such a rigged device was very limited.


This sounds to me like an old shell that was lying around and some insurgents found it. We know Saddam had this type of WMD in the past. The question was about the present. If this was part of an active program, these insurgents would have know what was in it.

Also, it's only one shell - not exactly proof of a whole program.

Right now, I'm more concerned about that New Yorker article. I'm sure you've read or heard about it. Besides the prisoner abuse subject that is it's main focus, it also says this:
Quote:
 
"Cambone was a strong advocate for war against Iraq. He shared Rumsfeld’s disdain for the analysis and assessments proffered by the C.I.A., viewing them as too cautious, and chafed, as did Rumsfeld, at the C.I.A.’s inability, before the Iraq war, to state conclusively that Saddam Hussein harbored weapons of mass destruction. "

Bold is mine.

The info in this article is supposedly from interviews with "several past and present American intelligence officials". If true, it certainly supports the idea that we went to war with Iraq largely on just a hunch while being told we know he has WMD.


Edit:
I was just reading about the Sarin incident in an article at Fox News. Here's a quote:
Quote:
 
Gazi George, a former Iraqi nuclear scientist under Saddam's regime, told Fox News that he believes many similar weapons stockpiled by the former regime were either buried underground or transported to Syria. He noted that the airport where the device was detonated is on the way to Baghdad from the Syrian border.

This can imply more than one thing. By the context, I think it is intended to imply that the shell was on its way to Syria and never made it (although the way it's written sounds like it traveled in the reverse). Or it could mean that it had made it and has now found its way back to Iraq. However, it's also possible that it was brought into Iraq from Syria and wasn't necessarily in Iraq ever before.

The article also mentions that this shell and some mustard gas that reportedly was also found are both thought to be left over from the Gulf War. If so, again these are old weapons, not evidence of the active program that we were led to believe in.
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
I.E.
Quote:
 
This sounds to me like an old shell that was lying around and some insurgents found it. We know Saddam had this type of WMD in the past. The question was about the present. If this was part of an active program, these insurgents would have know what was in it.


To be blunt, what are the odds? Damned tiny.


Somerled
Quote:
 
When it is confirmed properly - and not just by local military officials and a press report you might then perhaps have something.


Nothing satisfies you, does it Somerled. Who would satisfy you, some UN bureaucrat? Sorry, I'll take the word of a military with actual KNOWLEDGE. Also, a distraction? Now? The timing would not help anything. (Note to self... try not to call him an idiot, try not to call him an idiot.)
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
Admiralbill_gomec
May 17 2004, 03:30 PM
I.E.
Quote:
 
This sounds to me like an old shell that was lying around and some insurgents found it. We know Saddam had this type of WMD in the past. The question was about the present. If this was part of an active program, these insurgents would have know what was in it.


To be blunt, what are the odds? Damned tiny.

Here's how I see it. There are two possibilities:

1. This is part of an old program in which case it's quite plausible that the insurgents had no idea about the Sarin. They stumbled on the shell somewhere and, without any markings, how would they know?

2. This is part of a recent and active (as of the beginning of last year) program. After more than a year of searching, the active program hasn't been found. Now this is supposed evidence. Maybe it is, but that would indicate that someone did a pretty good job of hiding this shell and the theoretical rest of them. It also makes it pretty unlikely that unknowing people would just accidentally stumble on them if they were well hidden. In that case, anyone using these shells like in this instance would most likely know full well what it is.

"Damned tiny" odds? Only if this is from a very old program. But then that was what I said makes the most sense to me right now anyway.
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Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
Doesn't really do them a lot of good to use them now does it? I suspect this was something found locked away since the 80s when we probably sold it to them, otherwise don't you think they would've used WMDs when they were being invaded?
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
Okay folks, let's look at reality, okay?

It doesn't matter if he made them in the 80s, or made them last week. HE HAD THEM. He had them in a way that they could be USED. Do you really, HONESTLY, and objectively think that the terrorist scum just happened to find ONE? Why would ONE shell be mixed in with others? This just doesn't add up.

Sorry, there's another issue that John Kerry can't use.

By the way, you don't handle sarin like you handle tapwater. ONE DROP can kill.
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
IMO, I am looking at reality, but with all due respect I do question what you are looking at. Actually I'm surprised you're buying into this so easily. While I may not often agree with you, you usually have more conclusive reasons than this to support your views.

I did say I'll remain open-minded - i.e., I haven't completely dismissed the possibility that it is evidence.

But I also provided valid reasons for questioning it's real significance.

It DOES make a difference if it's old. It quite possibly could be the ONLY one remaining. For example, it's plausible that it dates back to or before the Gulf War. Our war efforts at that time may have blown up the rest of the supply, but this one wasn't quite destroyed. If true, it wouldn't be evidence of a current threat at all. In fact, in that scenerio, Saddam wouldn't have even known it existed.

Another possible scenerio: Saddam really did try to destroy his WMD program, but didn't do a great job and a shell or two remained intact.

There are many possible scenerios that don't support a recent WMD threat.

More evidence is CLEARLY needed.
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
That evidence may come in the form of further Sarin attacks.
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
Yes, that's ONE possibility...
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
Quote:
 
It quite possibly could be the ONLY one remaining


Once again, what are the odds? Infinitely small. Seriously. We found mustard gas two weeks ago (also posted on this board).

Quote:
 
Another possible scenerio:  Saddam really did try to destroy his WMD program, but didn't do a great job and a shell or two remained intact.


Then why didn't he say he did? Sorry, I can't buy it.

Why is it that you two can't give George Bush credit for being right about anything? Seriously. More evidence needed? Would you accept it then? Seriously? I know of two specific posters in here, one "antipodean" who would say it was a CIA plot and the other wouldn't accept it if someone tied a bow around the entire WMD program and handed it to him.
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