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Swing State Voter Here; First in a Series
Topic Started: May 14 2004, 01:52 PM (280 Views)
Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
The national media is consistently saying that Ohio is the "Florida" of 2004.

Being a registered voter in Ohio, it would appear that I would wield some power in this election. (She said tongue firmly in cheek).

Yes, much of Ohio is Republican and currently all major office holders are Republican. What many non-Ohioans don't know is that no one likes the governor. (When you see the phrase "stereotypical white male Republican", Bob Taft's picture is the one use for an example - she said tongue STILL firmly in cheek.) Also the northeast section of Ohio is pretty committed to the Democratic party.

Therefore, the state is up for grabs and every vote counts.

I can't sell my vote (it being illegal and all), but, at least, I should get courted and cajoled to vote for one candidate or the other.

So - I'm ready - convince me. Who should I vote for? ;)
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Sgt. Jaggs
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How about a Voyager Movie
Listen to all of the Presidential Debates before deciding. Try to get details from the Democratic candidate as why he or she is a better choice for America right now. Do you want that or W for 4 more years, cause I can almost promise you he will continue exactly what you have seen thus far. Question is, do you approve or not??
I approve.
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
Are the Ohio voting ballots and machines up to par? If not, your vote might not count. Or it might count several times. ;)
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ANOVA
Vice Admiral
IE

See as Ohio is mostly Republican, they should have few problems. Except for the Democratic districts, Which were the only districts that had problems in florida if I recall.

See what a liberal education does, can't vote, can't count. That new math 'ill get ya every time.

BTW: Iowa is a swing state this election also. With our wopping 2 and 3/4 electoral votes. I'm not selling my vote, But I'll rent it for the day. Terry McAuliffe rented plenty of votes in Oklohoma last time.

ANOVA
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
ANOVA
May 14 2004, 05:11 PM
See as Ohio is mostly Republican, they should have few problems.

That depends on whether Ohio uses butterfly ballots. If so, there just might be a lot of Republicans voting for Kerry! Or even Nader! ;) :D


Btw, it just appeared to be only Democrats having problems. Here's why:

Hypothetical example:

Original count: 100 Bush, 70 Gore

Counting Errors:
15 Republicans voted for Gore, but intended Bush
20 Democrats voted for Bush, but intended Gore

New count: 95 Bush, 75 Gore
But this appears to be 5 Democratic and 0 Republican errors

As for the Democratic districts, those are the ones that Gore wanted recounted - remember that whole issue about selective recounts? (IMO, that's why Gore isn't President. The whole state should have been recounted from the beginning.)
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Sgt. Jaggs
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How about a Voyager Movie
:lol: selected not elected, selected not elected, selected not elected..... :lol: :lol:

I let that go when I saw Gore could not even win His Tennessee or Willies Arkansas. Either of those electoral votes would have won it. Pathetic. To think it was that close with "W" looking like a muttering chimp in the headlights during the Debates. Funny thing is if there no Term Limits Clinton would have easily been elected to a third term.
Poor Al was perceived as a stiff. Hey I voted for Al, but....... a stiff. Also Tipper Gore came out against Rock and Metal music(In earlier years) which alienated a small bit of the Democrat's normally perceived demographic. That tiny segment of guys I knew said they hated Al Gore because of that. Just little things that linger around that people remember and associate with a guy they don't even know. They don't know his voting record in The House of Representatives, they don't watch the debates they just go in their instincts.
All the little things like that can shift the simple perceptions of average Americans and who knows, how much do the little things mean in a race that tight.

The image of the butterfly ballots in Palm Beach as I remember them were horrible. There were candidates names too near adjacent candidates names causing voters to misspunch the ballot too many times rendering it void. There were dimples and so called "hanging chads" where some equipment or "A Senior" did not fully engage the punch also rendering it void. Even if those were allowed it would not have been a convincing majority for Gore.

I was terrified when Bush got in because I though he was a Dummy.
Some dummy, boy was I wrong. He received a bachelor's degree from Yale University in 1968, and he achieved a Masters Degree in Business Administration from Harvard Business School in 1975. You see it was that simple perception I had of him that disabled me from considering him worthy to be my President.

It turns out I am quite happy with his administration. Yeah they are taking heat, but he has done things for me and my children and their future. He is resolute and decisive He does not ever vacillate with policy. This is what we need right now to fight Mohammed and his so called 'insurgeants'. :angry:

(he also sent me some of my own money back from the IRS!!!!! ;) ) PHAT! My family put that straight into the economy!
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Swidden
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Adm. Gadfly-at-large; Provisional wRench-fly at large
Ah, like there is one wit of a chance that any of us here can convince Wichita how she should vote. Of course, if Ohio puts Diebold e-voting machines into use then we could always ask our resident tech-expert to just realign the votes to suit our desires after we hold our own private election. This might mean we will have to start manfacturing our own secret decoder rings. :wow: :D :angel: :whistle:
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Adrian
Lieutenant Commander
Okay, Wichita, I'll bite.
Like most first term elections, this election will clearly be a judgement on Bush's presidency.
:o Bush has started a war that can be called "questionable" as to its wisdom.
:o Bush has flushed our good standing in the international community down the drain. How much easier would it be to get things done (UN troopps to help with Iraq, cooperation with terrorism, combatting international cyber-crime, stopping outbreaks of diseases, trade talks, ect.) with a president who has more respect?
:o Bush's tentative economic recovery (few new jobs, and even those in low paying sectors) may be crushed by his other policies (possible high inflation looming, huge deficits that our grandkids will be paying off, uncertainty from Iraq, ect.).
:o Bush's tax cuts for the rich (income and estate tax) are unsettling.
:o Bush has instituted a pay to play government. Sure we've always had special interests, but with Bush (campaign fund now at $200 million) it's almost policy for sale.
If I were the voter in the swing states I would ask myself where is the country going under Bush. Are we going forward to new ideas and a better future, or are we actually falling back to old ideologies and strategies that are outdated?
:whistle: Okay, personally think we're falling back to the Gilded Age when the poor farmers and factory workers and farmers had no say in a government that was bought and sold by the Rockefellers and J.P. Morgans of the time. It was a time when the Amrican Empire was expanded by knocking over weaker powers on trumped up reasons brought to you by the yellow dog press (Spanish-American War). It was the time when rights, heath care, and a good education were for a few and democracy suffered. Sound familar?
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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
Wichita, I think this quote says all you need to know about George W Bush.
Quote:
 
"It is not the critic who counts, nor the man who points out where the strong man stumbled, or where a doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man in the arena whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs, and who comes up short again and again, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause. The man who at best knows the triumph of high achievement and who at worst, if he fails, fails while daring greatly, so that his place will never be with those cold timid souls who never knew victory or defeat." - Teddy Roosevelt
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Sgt. Jaggs
Member Avatar
How about a Voyager Movie
Adrian
May 15 2004, 02:18 AM
Okay, Wichita, I'll bite.
Like most first term elections, this election will clearly be a judgement on Bush's presidency.
:o Bush has started a war that can be called "questionable" as to its wisdom.
:o Bush has flushed our good standing in the international community down the drain. How much easier would it be to get things done (UN troopps to help with Iraq, cooperation with terrorism, combatting international cyber-crime, stopping outbreaks of diseases, trade talks, ect.) with a president who has more respect?
:o Bush's tentative economic recovery (few new jobs, and even those in low paying sectors) may be crushed by his other policies (possible high inflation looming, huge deficits that our grandkids will be paying off, uncertainty from Iraq, ect.).
:o Bush's tax cuts for the rich (income and estate tax) are unsettling.
:o Bush has instituted a pay to play government. Sure we've always had special interests, but with Bush (campaign fund now at $200 million) it's almost policy for sale.
If I were the voter in the swing states I would ask myself where is the country going under Bush. Are we going forward to new ideas and a better future, or are we actually falling back to old ideologies and strategies that are outdated?
:whistle: Okay, personally think we're falling back to the Gilded Age when the poor farmers and factory workers and farmers had no say in a government that was bought and sold by the Rockefellers and J.P. Morgans of the time. It was a time when the Amrican Empire was expanded by knocking over weaker powers on trumped up reasons brought to you by the yellow dog press (Spanish-American War). It was the time when rights, heath care, and a good education were for a few and democracy suffered. Sound familar?

Awesome! Not one mention of why you want Kerry, just that you don't want Bush.
That is exactly why you will get more Bush! :D

The T.R. quote is right on the point and I agree with the analogy!
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
Adrian
May 15 2004, 01:18 AM
Okay, Wichita, I'll bite.
Like most first term elections, this election will clearly be a judgement on Bush's presidency.
:o
:o
:o
:o
:o
If I were the voter in the swing states I would ask myself where is the country going under Bush. Are we going forward to new ideas and a better future, or are we actually falling back to old ideologies and strategies that are outdated?
:whistle:

Okay, I'll respond:

Yes, this will be a judgment on the Bush presidency. Let me take a moment to dissect your comments:

Quote:
 
Bush has started a war that can be called "questionable" as to its wisdom.

So, you'd rather fight terrorists here? We are not talking about the war with Iraq, but a war on the terror from radical Islam. THEY want nothing more than to kill us, simply because of who we are (the freeest society in the world), and what we represent (once again, freedom). Radical Islam is all about subjugation. Look what they do to their women. Hell, "Islam" means submission to God. If you are not a Muslim, you have two choices, either convert or die. If you want an example of what they want, look at Afghanistan under the Taliban. If you want an example of what they want to do to us, look to 9/11.
Quote:
 
Bush has flushed our good standing in the international community down the drain. How much easier would it be to get things done (UN troopps to help with Iraq, cooperation with terrorism, combatting international cyber-crime, stopping outbreaks of diseases, trade talks, ect.) with a president who has more respect?

Sorry, but we had NO good standing in what you would call the international community prior to this administration. By the way, what you would call the "international community" I would call France and Germany. They were jealous of us then, and are jealous of us now. So is Russia. Why are they jealous? They were former (and I stress former) world powers who look back to their days of empire so they don't have think of why the United States is the sole remaining superpower. As for our being the sole remaining superpower, better us than them. Those other countries have disliked us since we saved their bacon back in WWII, which was the ACTUAL death knell for them. From a historical standpoint, Russia was at its historical acme at the end of WWII. Following that they overextended themselves and collapsed. To address your comment about UN troops and all that. We do actually have a coalition. I've stated the members here on more than one occasion. These are more than water treatment engineers, they are actual soldiers who also fight and die (and receive NO acknowledgment of their presence from the lamestream media).

Quote:
 
Bush's tentative economic recovery (few new jobs, and even those in  low paying sectors) may be crushed by his other policies (possible high inflation looming, huge deficits that our grandkids will be paying off, uncertainty from Iraq, ect.).


Oooh, gloom and doom. You really have to stop watching Peter Jennings. Few new jobs? Try over ONE MILLION in the past eight months. (This is why Kerry doesn't talk about jobs any more). These cover ALL sectors. People who had given up on jobs during the tech crash of 2000 (under Billy Jeff's administration) are returning to the job market. Tentative economic recovery? We've averaged a 5% pace for the past year, and over 3% since we left the MINIMAL recession of 2001 (which was magnified by the events of 9/11 and still gets misreported by the lamestream media. We are in the middle of an economic BOOM. High inflation? Try 3%. That's what everyone is afraid of. Huge deficits? The economy is growing faster than expected, which means we'll grow our way out of deficits, just like we did in the last administration, but this time we won't have to chop and dice the military to do so.

Quote:
 
Bush's tax cuts for the rich (income and estate tax) are unsettling.

No they aren't. They go to the people who pay taxes. Who benefit MOST from the current tax cuts? The working poor, whose rate was cut by FIFTY PERCENT. While the "rich" (I guess you'll have to include me in there, because I make more than xxxxx <--- insert amount here) pay the most actual tax, their rate has decreased the least. Tax cuts are unsettling to those who believe in a nanny state. I believe that the individual is the best person to decide how to take care of oneself. Liberals should wake up and smell the coffee... you simply can NOT please everyone.

Quote:
 
Bush has instituted a pay to play government. Sure we've always had special interests, but with Bush (campaign fund now at $200 million) it's almost policy for sale.

Actually, it was Bill Clinton who started this. Bush made the mistake of signing that ridiculous McCain-Feingold bill, which made the problem worse. Now we have 527 corporations (but these aren't "evil corporations" because they are run by people who hate George Bush) who funnel money indirectly toward a candidate. I'll say one thing about the left; they are better organized and always have been. The right doesn't want to step on toes, so they meekly go along. This is slowwwly changing.

Quote:
 
Okay, personally  think we're falling back to the Gilded Age when the poor farmers and factory workers and farmers had no say in a government that was bought and sold by the Rockefellers and J.P. Morgans of the time. It was a time when the Amrican Empire was expanded by knocking over weaker powers on trumped up reasons brought to you by the yellow dog press (Spanish-American War). It was the time when rights, heath care, and a good education were for a few and democracy suffered. Sound familar?

What a complete pantload. I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but there are no poor farmers left. Most family farms are worth over a million dollars, and considering the subsidies they get, they have quite a lot of pull. Factory workers? What is this, the 1930s? We are moving away from a steel worker economy to an information economy. Looking at the current and previous administrations, the Rockefellers and Morgans had a lot more say in the previous one (case in point, Robert Rubin).

You asked, are we going forward to new ideas and a better future? Yup. The problem is, all the ideas you cited are relics of the PAST... specifically the 1930s. You long for the days when unions were powerful and government controlled everything. Sorry, those were old ideas, and they didn't work. The era of FDR socialism is over.

Yes, Bush represents the future, and it is a bright future if you'd take off your blinders.
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Swidden
May 15 2004, 04:51 AM
Ah, like there is one wit of a chance that any of us here can convince Wichita how she should vote.

Personal Opinion

You should never assume. ;) Until Al Gore's sophmoric behavior in the 3rd debate, the 2000 election was a coin toss for me.

If Kerry's gets a bit creative with the vice-presidential pick (like remembering there are women and non-caucasians), I might be tempted. After all, it doesn't look like he will do anything very much differently than Bush has. :shrug:

End of Personal Opinion




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Sgt. Jaggs
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How about a Voyager Movie
:clap: Awesome. The Fist has exposed another pantload.

Rose-
Remind us of the behavior of Al Gore in the 3rd debate? I do not remember the so called sophmoric behavior.
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Adrian
Lieutenant Commander
Um, I'm all for fighting terrorists. I'm all for our smashing the Taliban in Afghanistan.
But Iraq wasn't about terrorists. Bush even admitted there weren't any in September. His administration incinuated there were, but when no anti-American activities or links were exposed, he had to bite the bullet and hope no one noticed.
Sure it's hard to tell the difference now that every terrorist who can get some cheap explosives can walk to Iraq and go kill some Americans. It's like Bush created an amusement park for Islamic fundementalist killers.
Still no weapons of mass destruction, either.
We're not fighting everyone who is an Arab or Moslem; we're fighting those who use terror as a weapon and kill innocents. One group is really big (millions of people) the other is only a small part of that huge group. Bill has reduced it down so far that the two have been confused.
:o We had a great standing in the international community. Look at how many countries joined the Coalition in the first Gulf War. Now it's the USA, UK, and the coalition of the bought. And how few of those countries sent their troops? Five others?
:o Maybe the economic recovery is booming in Texas. Over here in California, we're still in the dumps. How about over in Ohio, Wichita? How much are you paying for a gallon of gas?
:o I don't know about a "nanny state", but we Democrats do believe everyone should pay their fair share on a progressive tax scale. Anyone else notice how far up their payroll taxes increased under Bushand a Rep Congress? Who dosen't pay payroll taxes? Oh yeah multi-millionaires!
:o Actually the pay to play special interests started practically with the second election. It reached a peak during the "machine politics" of the (you guessed it!) Gilded Age following the Civil War. Bush, however, has raised it to a fine art.
A good example was VP Cheney's top secret Energy Task Force where top energy buisness execs got together with him and decided the energy policy for the nation. If it wasn't leaked, no one would've heard abou it. This is the same commission Cheney's claiming Executive Privilege over in a case that's going before the Supreme Court. You may have heard about the big fuss some people are making over the fact that Justice Scalia and Cheney are great friends (they regularly go Duck hunting together), but Scalia won't excuse himself for being prejudicial.
:o As to the Bush policices bringing us back to the Gilded Age, here are some points:
:angry: Are our schools better? No Child Left Behind is far too restrictive and seriously under-funded. Some states (Utah, Nebraska) are actually considering refusing Federal funds because the plan is so bad. Educators near universally hate it.
:angry: Are our rights protected? How about that Patriot Act? Oh, and let's not forget Ashcroft's plan for Patriot Act 2: No Freedom Left Behind.
:angry: How is the enviroment? Under Bush the tax on polluting businesses that funded the Superfund (that cleaned up toxic industrial disaster areas) was cut so now the Superfund is one tenth its original size. The Bush administration is actually taking sites off the cleanup list because they would be too expensive.
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Adrian
May 16 2004, 06:49 AM
But Iraq wasn't about terrorists. Bush even admitted there weren't any in September.


Personal Response

Are you saying that Bush said "There are no terrorists in Iraq."? Those were his
exact words?

Quote:
 
:o Maybe the economic recovery is booming in Texas. Over here in California, we're still in the dumps. How about over in Ohio, Wichita? How much are you paying for a gallon of gas?


As I said in another thread, I am paying $1.65 on Monday and $2.05 on Friday. The cost of gas here has jumped between 20 and 40 cents between the beginning and end of the week for the last 4 or 5 years minimum.

Personally my income has jumped over 35% in the last three years (after going down over 20% in the last year of the Clinton presidency). As to Ohio, there was a loss in 2000 and 2001. The 2-year college I work for tracks our graduates. The average starting income for 20-21 years olds is $30,000. In some of the more advanced tech fields the money is even better.

Kerry is pushing the job loss hard here. Bush ads are pointing out all the defense contracts that employ people here, but that Kerry voted against.

Quote:
 
A good example was VP Cheney's top secret Energy Task Force where top energy buisness execs got together with him and decided the energy policy for the nation. If it wasn't leaked, no one would've heard abou it.


See Hillary's task force on health care. :loling:

Quote:
 
:angry: Are our schools better? No Child Left Behind is far too restrictive and seriously under-funded. Some states (Utah, Nebraska) are actually considering refusing Federal funds because the plan is so bad. Educators near universally hate it.


Just curious - did you see the Teacher's Union's response to Kerry's proposals?

Jagalom apparently someone told Gore (or he thought it up himself) that he had to prove himself the alpha male by staking out the territory of the stage they were debating on. He spent the evening trying to crowd out Bush when he answered a question. He ended up looking hyperactive and Bush unflappable.

End of Personal Response
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