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Will they be compensated for loosing their homes ?; I wonder.
Topic Started: May 14 2004, 06:48 AM (884 Views)
Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
I noticed that Somerled's article never mentioned the reason the Isaelis bulldozed those houses in Palestinian area is that they covered the access to tunnels from Egypt that are used to smuggle in arms and explosives.
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ANOVA
Vice Admiral
Fes:

The statistical mode is a measure of central tendency for your data.

The mode is the data that occurs most frequently.

Example if we were measuring the hieghts of SisterTrek members we my have more measure a certain hieght than any other hieght. We'll say that 8 members measures 5' 9". and no other data point had as many people. 5' 9" would be our mode for this statistic.

If two data points are (nearly) equally high the statisic is bimodal (has two modes).
This usually suggests that you are attempting to measure two distinct groups.

Back to our hieght statistic:

We find after measuring all the members of SisterTrek and found that 8 members measure 5' 9" and 7 members at 6' 1". To make sure we're looking at a bimodal distribution of data we draw a frequency histogram (think fancy barchart) and we see something that looks like a bell curve with two distinct humps. Yes, Fes we have a bimodal distribution. In the case of hieght it, the two distinct groups are the male and female genders. Nothing musical here.

ANOVA
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Bill :
Every single one of them ? I suspect the tunnels are just an excuse to punish the Palestinians. How many tunnels are there supposed to be ?

So why aren't the IDF using ground penetrating radar to detect all these tunnels,?

This technique would very easily detect any tunnels within any area of land (as large as you want) and it is a proven and readily available technology and is easy to interpret (this I know this from personal experience as I used a hybrid form of ground penetrating radar that I had a part in developing along with BHP-Research & CSIRO in the late 1990s - which was designed to find internal structural flaws (voids, discontinualities, cracks, and separations in large critical suspended refractory structures).

Once found the IDF could either excavate them , fill them with pumped in concrete or they could collapsed them without the loss of life (excpet perhaps any smugglers who might happen to be in them when the collapse is initiated).

This would be smart thing to do and cheaper in more ways than one than involving hundreds or thousands of heavily armed IDF personnel and the associated armour), and would also keep the IDF personnel out of harms way as well , and would allow people in any houses near tunnel entrances to keep their homes - perhaps lowing the temperature of Palestinian resistance.

Just a thought.

Fes :

Bimodal ==> Two distinct means in the data (indicative of two overlaying and distinct populations of data, rather than a normal or skewed normal probability distribution with a single and well defined mean.
Anova is more of less correct. Basic Statistics for Dummys.
Bimodal Distribution. A distribution that has two modes (thus two "peaks").
Posted Image
Quote:
 

Bimodality of the distribution in a sample is often a strong indication that the distribution of the variable in population is not normal. Bimodality of the distribution may provide important information about the nature of the investigated variable (i.e., the measured quality). For example, if the variable represents a reported preference or attitude, then bimodality may indicate a polarization of opinions. Often however, the bimodality may indicate that the sample is not homogenous and the observations come in fact from two or more "overlapping" distributions. Sometimes, bimodality of the distribution may indicate problems with the measurement instrument (e.g, "gage calibration problems" in natural sciences, or "response biases" in social sciences).

from StatSoft




Even the USA has condemned what Israel is doing .
As has the UN, and AI.
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
somerled
May 20 2004, 06:19 AM
Bill :
Every single one of them ? I suspect the tunnels are just an excuse to punish the Palestinians. How many tunnels are there supposed to be ?

So why aren't the IDF using ground penetrating radar to detect all these tunnels,?

This technique would very easily detect any tunnels within any area of land (as large as you want) and it is a proven and readily available technology and is easy to interpret (this I know this from personal experience as I used a hybrid form of ground penetrating radar that I had a part in developing along with BHP-Research & CSIRO in the late 1990s - which was designed to find internal structural flaws (voids, discontinualities, cracks, and separations in large critical suspended refractory structures).

Once found the IDF could either excavate them , fill them with pumped in concrete or they could collapsed them without the loss of life (excpet perhaps any smugglers who might happen to be in them when the collapse is initiated).

This would be smart thing to do and cheaper in more ways than one than involving hundreds or thousands of heavily armed IDF personnel and the associated armour), and would also keep the IDF personnel out of harms way as well , and would allow people in any houses near tunnel entrances to keep their homes - perhaps lowing the temperature of Palestinian resistance.

Just a thought.


Are you a complete idiot, or do you just play one one television?

THIS IS WAR. In war you do not have TIME to perform all the intricate little steps. In addition, you've probably never heard this phrase, but "No plan survives contact with the enemy." Your method has way too much to go wrong, and it would be too easy for something to go wrong, which would mean casualties.

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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Quote:
 
Every single one of them ? I suspect the tunnels are just an excuse to punish the Palestinians. How many tunnels are there supposed to be ?


You can suspect anything you want but it still doesn't make it true. And we all know you are not very good with the truth.

As to the tunnels. You can research the number for yourself. There are many and they are leading into the "civilian" homes of the people you keep claiming do not support the terrorists. Here are a couple of articles regarding the tunnels.

Weapon Smuggling Tunnels in Rafah - Background Material

NPR Turns to Guardian Reporter for Lessons in Israel Bashing

I will let Bill discuss the viability of your tactical suggestions since I know nothing of the matter.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Bill:
So Israel is at war with the Palestinians ?

What are you talking about - mining companies use ground penetrating radar to enable them to explore very large tracks of land quickly , hundreds of square km in days.

No this isn't war - it is collective punishment of predominantly innocent people and a human rights abuse.

Obviously you know very little about ground penetrating radar surveys.

Minuet :
Quote:
 
Appendix C: Smuggling tunnels uncovered by the IDF along the Philadephi Route

Total of tunnels uncovered during 2002: 34
Total of tunnels uncovered during 2003: over 40
Total of tunnels uncovered during 2004: 11
Yet another propoganda site set up by the IFM .

From your own link ONLY 11 tunnels found so far this year , how does that justify demolishing homes in the numbers effected as is the case in the current IDF campaign?
11 homes would be justifiable - maybe (?) if the occupants actually knew there was a tunnel entrance in their basement.

So the next question is how many houses have actually been sniping positions ?

The other link - CAMERA - their motivations and leanings are easily seen from :
Quote:
 

Increasingly, campuses have been the scene of propagandistic assaults on Israel. Distorted literature, extreme speakers and false, inflammatory images are all too common, creating harmful misperceptions of Israel.
... the language used is also loaded (a typical propogandist tool)
and also in the same place
Quote:
 
also provides one-on-one assistance to students who encounter Middle East distortions in campus publications, flyers, rallies and classroom teaching

so it is obviously just another pro-Israel propoganda -merchant, no where does it say it has a goal of being even handed , just that it's aims are to minimize the damage that IDF activities do to Israel's international reputation and credibility.

Minuet - when you start quoting unbiassed sources I might start taking your "evidence" seriously and regarding it as credible. Not before.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Bill:

Typical - can't counter the alternative proposed - yet alone understand how it would work - so you as usual resort to your normal tactics when you are on the back foot.

What is
Quote:
 
one one television
? Is that an american game ?

What do you know about ground penetrating radar and ground penetrating radar (geophysical) surveys ?
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
No dipstick, I quickly explained WHY your plan wouldn't work. Perhaps when you understand something about how military organizations and war planning work, then MAYBE we can have a rational discussion. Do you know what military organizations actually do? Put bluntly, they protect their population from outside attack, kill people, and break things. Your "alternative" is simply silly. If it were viable, don't you think the IDF would try it (to possibly reduce their own casualties)?

No, this is WAR. Israel SIMPLY WANTS TO EXIST, while the Palestinians want to kill them all and "drive them into the sea." I admire Israel's RESTRAINT. ONLY 11 tunnels? That is 11 too many.

So genius, tell me how many military organizations carry around ground penatrating radar units? I believe the answer is ZERO.

Do me a favor. When you back yourself into a corner concerning issues you know nothing about, turn around, find the door knob, and let yourself out.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Quote:
 
Since September 2000, the IDF has uncovered and demolished approximately 90 tunnels.

• During 2003, the IDF has uncovered and demolished over 40 tunnels as well as a large number of houses and buildings from where the tunnels emerged.
• Since the beginning of 2004, the IDF has uncovered and demolished 11 tunnels as well as a number of houses and buildings from where the tunnels emerged. 



Just to put your ridiculous comment about 11 tunnels into perspective I thought I would quote the entire passage. It's only May.

Quote:
 
11 homes would be justifiable - maybe (?) if the occupants actually knew there was a tunnel entrance in their basement.


No. 1 - prove that they didn't know. Gee - wouldn't you notice someone appearing out of nowhere in your house smuggling arms???? Get real.

No. 2 One main tunnel can branch off and enter many homes.

No. 3 One tunnel is too many. How many Israelies have to die before they are justified in defending themselves? I don't feel sorry for a Palestinian sympathizer who loses thier home. I do feel sorry for the Israeli who lost thier child.

As to CAMERA, here is a description of thier organization.

Quote:
 
Founded in 1982, the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America is a media-monitoring, research and membership organization devoted to promoting accurate and balanced coverage of Israel and the Middle East. CAMERA fosters rigorous reporting, while educating news consumers about Middle East issues and the role of the media. Because public opinion ultimately shapes public policy, distorted news coverage that misleads the public can be detrimental to sound policymaking. A non-partisan organization, CAMERA takes no position with regard to American or Israeli political issues or with regard to ultimate solutions to the Arab-Israeli conflict.



I invite you to take a look at thier list of media outlets and members. The membership list includes names that sound Islamic. You can't just label every organization that does not agree with you as biased. Try providing proof that they are biased.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
Anova and Somerled,

Thanks much for your responses.

Anova,

Modality goes back to the middle ages in music. A couple of composers wrote within more than one mode simultaneously (bimodal is the term used from a musicological perspective). This is why I asked--I wanted to see if (in the context begun by Somerled) it had anything to do with music. Since it does not, this reminds me somewhat, then, of the term 'fugue'--one having to do with music, and the other having to do with psychology--as in the state of mind one is in when having returned from having amnesia (i.e., a 'fugue state'). Not too much in common. BTW, 'fuga' (Lat.) means 'flight,' in which case I can see the similarities of the term as used in both disciplines. :)
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet :

Tunnel numbers - see my post - taken from your link. None-the-less only 11 have been discovered so far this year by your own link.

1) No - I can not prove they were unaware , anymore than you can prove they were.
I submit that - if the tunnel entrance were in a disused part of the house or appartment block (or in a lock up basement or garage) and they (the smugglers) were very sneeky and quiet - the legitimate occupants may well not even know anything was happening.
The piece you provided alleged the smuggling only happens late at night in order to evade detection by the IDF - don't they use IR survaillence of the frontier - this would be easy and effective (using scanning IR cameras at key locations) ,and would certainly beat search lights or patrols moving about and squinting into the blackness at night.

(I can give you an example - when I was little boy , my dad discovered that a vagrant had been living underneigh our house - near where the gas meter was - it was warm and dry and out of the weather so I guess the vagrant thought he was on a good thing) he thought the guy had been using the place - undetected for several week judging by the amount of rubbish he'd left laying about and promptly put a padlock on the door (dad thought if this went on and the bum lit a fire to keep warm - he might very easily and easily burn the house down while he was on the turps and kill us all - so I can well image that people may well be unaware of things happening in a part of their house that they infrequently utilise.)

2) Speculation on your part.

3) True - but they exist none-the-less and I have suggested an effective means of detecting them that eliminates the IDF's excuse for mass demolisions to find a tunnel entrance every so often.

Re Camera : I did look (closely), my assessment of their agenda stands.

Islamic sounding names doesn't necessarily mean these people are Muslims.That is only circumstantial evidence. Anymore than someone who has (say) a chinese name will be a Confusian or Buddist.

Quote:
 
distorted news coverage that misleads the public can be detrimental
I agree with that statement , and believe Israel do a fair bit of this themselves, as do the Palestinians (the truth lies somewhere between what is being said by both these groups - its called propoganda and putting a positive spin on their actions (especially when they experience international criticism over their actions).
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
Question: How many poverty stricken Palistinian homes have basements and garages? These are simple homes that probably at most have 3 maybe 4 rooms. We are not talking about suburban estates with aluminum siding and driveways.

P.S. Given this, the idea that the occupants of these homes knew nothing about it is highly unlikely.

Also, do you truely believe that the terrorists are sneaky enough to make tunnels into 85 homes without the occupants knowing it?
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
He's not listening, Doc... he has his hands over his ears, his eyes closed, and he's saying, "WUBBA WUBBA WUBBA" repeatedly. He simply can not admit a mistake.

Please note that his original post mentioned nothing of tunnels, and when confronted with this fact he tried a side-step.
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ANOVA
Vice Admiral
Thanks Fes:

I learnt sumthin' new.

Now if I can just retain it.

ANOVA (more or less)

BTW; the nature of the arithmatic "mean" makes it impossible to have two distinct means within a single set of data. Remember the mean is the sum of all your data, divided by the number of data points. More commonly known as "the average". The two humps are two modes hence the term bimodal rather than bimeanial. It isn't until you break up the data into two separate groups that you get two seperate means. Sematic hair splitting? maybe.

Back to the hieght example. Our first time measuring all the hieghts of Sistertrek members gives one average hieght or mean but the histogram will have two modes.

When we decide on the possible cuase of our modes we can break up data into two gruops. This should give us averages closer to the two modes if the groups we desgined were indeed responsible for our modes.


NOW YOUR TURN FES:

What the heck is a musical "mode"? Remember, it is TrekBuff not me who has the musical background.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
somerled
May 20 2004, 03:19 PM
Minuet :

Tunnel numbers - see my post - taken from your link. None-the-less only 11 have been discovered so far this year by your own link.


I guess the difference between us is you see "only" 11 but I see the dead faces of Israelies due to the thousands of guns brought through those tunnels.

Quote:
 
1) No - I can not prove they were unaware , anymore than you can prove they were.
I submit that - if the tunnel entrance were in a disused part of the house or appartment block (or in a lock up basement or garage) and they (the smugglers) were very sneeky and quiet - the legitimate occupants may well not even know anything was happening.
The piece you provided alleged the smuggling only happens late at night in order to evade detection by the IDF - don't they use  IR survaillence of the  frontier - this would be easy and effective (using scanning IR cameras at key locations) ,and would certainly beat search lights or patrols moving about and squinting into the blackness at night


Read what Doctortobe wrote. He is right. We are not talking about fancy houses with basements. These people know exactly what is going on in thier homes. As the earlier poll showed they support the terrorists willingly.

Quote:
 
2) Speculation on your part.


Nice try- but no go. As you are fond of saying - Get a grip!

Quote:
 
3) True - but they exist none-the-less and I have suggested an effective means of detecting them that eliminates the IDF's excuse for mass demolisions to find a tunnel entrance every so often.


Once again - go back and read what Bill - someone with FIRST HAND experience in combat situations has to say about this. Also bone up on your history. Israel has up to this point only had a narrow patrol area. They were trying to let the Palestinians run the area - but the Palestinian Authority failed to act and stop the smuggling.

Quote:
 
Re Camera : I did look (closely), my assessment of their agenda stands.


Only someone as obtuse as you could overlook the many respected names on the list. In fact Admiralbill would point to Phil Donahue and accuse them of a leftist bias :loling:

And many of the names of participating journalists are clearly arabic. Not accepting this is just childish stubborness on your part.

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