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Will they be compensated for loosing their homes ?; I wonder.
Topic Started: May 14 2004, 06:48 AM (885 Views)
somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Wicheta :
They were actually Minuet's links. Sorry if that confused you.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
I knew you wouldn't acknowlege any of my points.

Typical.

If we are going to count refugees try this page

Jewish Refugees

Quote:
 
Approximately 600,000 Jews sought refuge in the State of Israel.(1) They arrived destitute, but they were absorbed into the society and became an integral part of the state. In effect, then, a veritable exchange of populations took place between Arab and Jewish refugees. Thus the Jewish refugees became full Israeli citizens while the Arab refugees remained "refugees" according to the wishes of the Arab leaders.


You still seem to value a Palestinian home over an Israeli life.

Where is the post condemning the Palestinians for FINANCIALLY supporting terrorism?

I'm not patronizing you. Just pointing out your one sided, prejudiced baloney.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Quote:
 
The point is that the very great majority of Palestinians have nothing to do with terrorist attack, and most do not support these actions, but they are the ones who are suffering the penalties because they can offer little or no resistance and are easy targets for vindictive revenge taking. That is what this is all about .


Guess what - I just found an article that says the opposite. Polls taken show that the majority of Palestinians support terrorism. Here is the link (original story from Yahoo.com no longer available - but full original article is printed. The site is partisan, but you must agree that the originator of the information is not)

Poll: Majority of Palestinians support homicide/suicide bombings and wish for the destruction of the State of Israel

Quote:
 
How would everyone in a crowded street be expected to know there is criminal amongst them ? - They aren't exactly carrying a sign in big indelible flashing letters saying I am a terrorist - now are they ?
ie when you are the mall , and in amongst the crowds you would think it unreasonable if you were held responsible for the actions of a total stranger who happened to be in that crowd.


They are aiding and abetting the terrorists. They do know who they are. They give them food, shelter and money. Oh, and carrying a gun in public is one easy way to identify them, especially during MASS demontrastions (You do know the meaning of the word mass don't you - that means a lot of people)
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet :

I do not accept that for a second.

Anymore than I accept that particular piece of "evidence" Facts of Israel site.which is Israel based and a VERY biassed site as being dependable or credible - it looks too much like just an instrument for delivering Israeli propoganda and examination of the poll reveals that they have been very selective in what they reported and endeavoured to report the poll findings in the worst possible light for political / propoganda purposes - that is they have not actually reported the poll entirely correctly - I've taken the trouble to follow up on this poll - it says, amongst other things that :
Quote:
 

A majority of Palestinians, 51.8 percent, believes that it is of Palestinian interest to renew and reach a ceasefire while 43.3 percent said it is not of Palestinian interest.

Peace Process
A great majority of Palestinians, 71.9 percent, have become pessimistic or very pessimistic that a peaceful settlement of the Arab-Israeli conflict would be reached, but 58.3 percent believe that the peace process is still alive—either passing through difficult times with an unknwon future or with a possibility of resuming negotiations. 


I've picked to eyeballs out of the data given therein :

Quote:
 
Q4. Do you strongly support, somewhat support, somewhat oppose, or strongly oppose the
continuation of the al-Aqsa Intifada in the West Bank and Gaza Strip?
Total West Bank Gaza
N= 1198 N= 758 N=440
Strongly support 38.7 33.6 47.5
Somewhat support 38.1 39.7 35.2
Somewhat oppose 15.3 17.8 10.9
Strongly oppose 6.4 7.7 4.3
No answer 1.5 1.2 2.1

Q5. Some believe that the Intifada is the best path to achieve our national goals and end the
occupation; others believe that the negotiations are the best way to do so. There are some who believe
that the continuation of the Intifada and the negotiations together is the method to achieve Palestinian
national goals, so in your perspective what is the best way to achieve our national goals?
Total West Bank Gaza Strip
N= 1198 N= 758 N=440
Only the Intifada 32.6 28.2 40.0
Only negotiations 13.0 16.4 7.3
Intifada and negotiations together 51.2 50.8 51.8
I don’t know 2.8 4.0 0.7
No answer 0.4 0.6 0.2


(I think this refers to resisting IDF when ever it engages in an incursion ?)

Quote:
 
Q6. In your opinion, what should be the end result of the current Intifada? Is it improving the
negotiation conditions for Palestinians? Ending occupation based on UN Resolution 242 and the
establishment of the Palestinian state? Or liberating all of historic Palestine?
Total West Bank Gaza
N= 1198 N= 758 N=440
Improve negotiation conditions for Palestinians 10.0 10.6 9.1
Ending occupation on basis of UN Resolution 242 and
establishing the Palestinian state
44.6 49.1 36.8
Liberating all of historic Palestine 43.0 37.1 53.2
Other 0.8 1.1 0.2
I don’t know 1.3 1.8 0.2
No answer 0.3 0.3 0.5


Q8. Some believe that the "Two - State Formula" is the best solution for the Israeli - Palestinian
conflict while others believe that historical Palestine cannot be divided into two states and therefore
the best solution would be a "Bi-National State" in all of Palestine where Palestinians and Israelis
enjoy equal rights, which of these two solutions would you prefer?
Total West Bank Gaza
N= 1198 N= 758 N=440
"Two – State Formula" is the best solution for the
Israeli – Palestinian
45.7 48.4 41.1
The best solution would be a "Bi-National State" in
all of Palestine
25.3 26.4 23.4
One Palestinian state with one nationality 13.3 9.8 19.3
Islamic state 3.4 3.0 4.2
Others 1.3 1.5 0.9
There is no solution 9.4 10.0 8.4
Don’t know 1.1 0.5 2.0
No answer 0.5 0.4 0.7

Q9. Do you support the resumption of the military operations against Israeli targets as a suitable
response within the current political conditions, or do you reject it and find it harmful to Palestinian
national interests?
Total West Bank Gaza
N= 1198 N= 758 N=440
A suitable response within the current political conditions 67.9 61.7 78.6
I reject it and find it harmful to Palestinian national interests 28.0 33.0 19.3
Other 1.1 1.5 0.5
I don’t know 2.7 3.3 1.6
No answer 0.3 0.5 0.0


(this one I find disturbing - then I am not experiencing the life of a Palestinian so I am will decline to make a judgement - I will point out the very small sample size and that the answers given may not be representative statistically as indicated by the variability between groups)

Quote:
 
Q11. What is your feeling towards suicide bombing operations against Israeli civilians, do you support
it or oppose it?
Total West Bank Gaza
N= 1198 N=758 N=440
Strongly support 30.5 24.0 41.6
Somewhat support 31.3 33.6 27.3
Somewhat oppose 11.4 13.5 21.8
Strongly oppose 23.5 24.4 7.7
I Don’t Know/ No opinion 2.7 3.4 1.4
No answer 0.6 1.1 0.2
but then 

Quote:
 

Q12. Do you strongly, or somewhat, support or strongly, or somewhat, oppose stopping all kind of
operations inside Israel, ?
Total West Bank Gaza
N= 1198 N=758 N=440
Strongly support 12.7 14.9 8.9
Somewhat support 26.8 32.6 16.8
Somewhat oppose 28.3 22.3 32.7
Strongly oppose 28.5 25.7 39.1
I Don’t Know/ No opinion 3.0 3.7 1.8


Q23. The Palestinian Authority has been working in recent months on implementing reform,
some find the reform serious, others do not find it serious while others see that the political
situation (re-occupation and checkpoints) obstruct the success of these reforms, what is your
opinion?
Total West Bank Gaza
N= 1198 N=758 N=440
I find it serious 13.2 12.3 14.8
I do not find it serious 35.7 35.6 35.9
Political situation (re-occupation
and siege) obstruct the success of
these reforms
48.7 50.0 46.4
No answer 2.4 2.1 2.9

Q29. Currently, there are discussions and contacts to renew the ceasefire. Do you believe that
the Palestinian interest entails reaching such a ceasefire or not?
Total West Bank Gaza
N= 1198 N=758 N=440
Yes 51.8 53.8 48.2
No 43.3 40.6 48.0
No answer 4.9 5.6 3.8


Q30. Do you believe that it is useful or not to have a third party role in the Palestinian lands to
contribute to solving the problem with Israel:
Total West Bank Gaza
N= 1198 N=758 N=440
It is useful to have a third party 49.2 46.6 53.6
It is not useful to have a third
party
18.4 20.7 14.5
it won't make any difference 28.9 29.3 28.2
No answer 3.5 3.4 3.7
No answer 0.7 0.8 0.7

Q31. Do you believe it is appropriate to have the international presence for the sake of
monitoring only or to have international presence with authorities and powers:
Total West Bank Gaza
N= 1198 N=758 N=440
International presence for
monitoring only
27.7 25.2 32.0
International presence with
authorities and powers
46.3 51.8 36.8
No answer 26.0 23.0 31.2


Q32. Do you believe that it is appropriate to have this presence limited in U.S. presence only?
UN presence? Or joint American-European presence?
Total West Bank Gaza
N= 1198 N=758 N=440
U.S. presence only 2.5 3.6 0.7
UN presence 39.3 37.1 43.2
Joint U.S.-European presence 31.0 35.2 23.6
No answer 27.2 24.1 32.5
The poll
I invite other interested readers to take a look at that site, explore it, watching out for and keeping in mind the normative elements therein - ie to justify Israeli actions.

Edit By Wichita: Somerled, since you included your personal comments within the text of your original quote, I went through and tried to pull them all out.
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Another site that appears to have the same poll

You'll need Acrobat Reader - which is free to download.

I say "appears" because I have not read the entire poll.
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Yo-Yo
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Captain
I have a time limit so i couldn't read the thread so i'm just going to state some facts.

First if this is about demolision of a strip of houses along the Gaza egyptian border to widen the security strip then you should know that first off MOST of the ohuses are and have been long abandonded. Fact. some have been occupied but to answer this let me follow up with something.

Israel demolishes homes for two main reasons. Fist illegal construction. this is done to BOTH palestinians, israelis and israeli arabs. People who build a house in a illegal zoe or in a legal zone but without a permit are immediately evicted and the house is destroyed. This has long been done to Jews too.

JPost Atrcile May 18 2004

The second reason is for security and for this there is in Varying circumstances compensation. I got all this information from my borther FIRST had you is a tank driver in the IDF. He just finished his tour of duty a week ago. All legal houses and building belonging to Palestinians are left alone with one cardinal rule: If there is an attack from the house, we demolish it, end of story, no apologies.

I spent the week end with my brother in Nitzarim, a small settlement (almost forty years old - i.e. before the PLO) that is surrounded by hostile palestinian towns. I had to take a bullet proof bus, a tramp, then a military convoy to get there. My borther's base was there and he gave me a tour.

The settlement is surrounded by conrrete barrieers to protect from snipers and it and the road into it have a 300m rule. Anyone comes within 300m of the settlement, shoot to kill, because there is no shadow of a doubt that they have hostile intentions. Every morning D9 blldozers scrape the entire 300m radius around the town to clear tens of mines planted the night before.

400 meters away were two buildings that were over 20 stories and for a while they were left alone. Then terrorists began sniping from is. So israel sent in military engineers and emolished both buildings. no apologies.

My brother is (was) a tank driver, he takes the tank into the middle of the 300m gap and they wait and gaurd from mid-day to the next early morning. One gaurd point is 20 meters away from a small arab sub-urb (which is inside the 300m zone) this is a huge security threat to the settlement and to the tank that sits so close by. However do attacks have come from there so they have left it alone. but as soon as one does, well, thats it.

Anyhoo, i have to go soon so i better check some other threads! :wave2:
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
somerled
May 17 2004, 09:28 AM
The point is that the very great majority of Palestinians have nothing to do with terrorist attack, and most do not support these actions,

If true - why is there not public out cry on the part of the Palestinian toward the terrorists? If the majority where to stop the hand full they don’t like things would go their way. I believe you overestimate the level of disapproval on the part of the every day Palestinian on the acts of the terrorists. I’m sure quite a good many of them don’t see anything wrong with it. Just like many Israel’s don’t see anything wrong with their attitude toward the Palestinians. Its all a vicious circle at this point and really not worth talking about whether the chicken or the egg came first, all that will get you is a whole lot of wasted time. The point is I don’t understand why you single the Israeli’s out as the sole wrong doers when its really both parties who are to blame.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Somerled, first, thank you for posting the entire poll. I think it supports my argument even more and frankly I fail to see how you can reject what is right before your eyes. Over 70% support or somewhat support the continuation of the Intifada. Close to half the respondents want to liberate "all of historic Palestine" You do understand that means the destruction of Israel completely right?????? Less then half want a 2 state solution. 70% support "military operations" against Israel. I noticed you skipped question 10, which asked about the resumption of military operations and if it should be within Israel, within the Occupied Territories or both. Those numbers seem to strongly support attacking in Israel. Number 11 you posted. Yet it is the strongest indicator of thier feeling. This question asks about attacking civilians with suicide attacks. Guess what - over 60% of the Palestinians support this!!!!!!!!!

Sorry. Try as you might you can't put a spin on this that supports your argument.

As for the other site, it may be partisan. But the figures on the numbers thrown out of Arab countries in 1947 and 1948 are accurate. No compensation has ever been paid to those people. Unless you also call for restitution for those people then you are being totally one sided.

And take a look at Yo-Yo's comments. It seems that those who are deserving of it do get compensation. I can't blame the government for not giving compensation to a house where a sniper was firing. Or, as in the case this very morning, where there are tunnels for smugglers of arms in the house.


Edit - I just went to the JMCC site where Somerled got the copy of the full poll. It is a site run by PALESTINIAN JOURNALISTS! Personally I commend them for thier relatively balanced approach under the circumstances. But of course this completely blows this comment by Somerled out of the water

Quote:
 
I invite other interested readers to take a look at that site, explore it, watching out for and keeping in mind the normative elements therein - ie to justify Israeli actions.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Dan:
Who's to say there isn't great concern and unhappiness on the Palestinians about the actions of what is a very small number of Palestinians who are endulging in attacks and bombings - and who are by their actions contributing to sustaining the violence.
Just because it isn't (very often) reported in western media , doesn't mean that there isn't conciderable opposition to bombings and attacks, after all the vast majority of Palestinians aren't barbarians anymore than the vast majority of jews are.
Then some of the responses in the Poll indicate that.

(We saw this on the weekend and there are from time to large rallies who demand more humane policies by the IDF and the Kannesset - it is obvious that there are many Israeli Jews who are very unhappy with their own government's and military's actions and policies.)

Yo-Yo:
Perhaps you can answer a question: What are the total areas of land that are currently occupied by the Palestinians ?

Minuet :
I noted that , and other answers that looked at the same question from a slightly different tack - the wording of questions in properly constructed polls is very important as the wording of a question can influence the response to it. This is why the same question is frequently asked from 2 or 3 different tacks in polls.

I'll refer you to Q8 and Q12 , Q29 thro Q32 are pertinent to the future of Palestine and Israel.

It is interesting that the Palestinians reject the USA as fair broker. (Q30)
And yes - the poll seemed reasonably even handed to me too, my major concern about it is that it is such a small sample , only a couple of thousand people out of 5 - 6 million Palestinians and so (some of) the answers may not be statistically valid. (This is indicated by the bimodal nature of many of the responses - depending on which subgroup of Palestinians were queried.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
I gotta hand it to you Somerled. A flipflop of Prime Ministerial or Presidental proportions. Have you considered running for political office?

Not even a "whoops, I was wrong in trying to paint this poll as Israeli propaganda"?????

As to your comments on the size of the sample. It is actually quite large for a poll of this type and it is considered accurate within 3%. That 3% would still have the majority of the Palestinian people approving suicide attacks on CIVILIANS.

As to question 8 - this shows that less then half the people are willing to accept Israel side by side with a Palestinian state. The 25% approx that want one state know that they will eventually prevail simply through a higher birth rate. If the undecideds would come out in favour of 2 States side by side then maybe you could see some movement with the majority in favour. In any case there is no way you can excuse the people who think that the only way to this solution is to murder as many Israelies as possible. You refer to question 12. Maybe you should read it again. The question asked if they are opposed to stopping operations in Israel. The numbers are small because the majority want to continue "operations" (read - terrorist attacks)

As to the other questions you refer to, I fail to see what relevence they have to this discussion.
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24thcenstfan
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
Here is a link to the Israeli raid on the refugee camp in Rafah today (Tuesday). At Least 18 Palestinians Killed in Israeli Raid

Edit: Since I posted the above article the number of casulties have changed. Updated Story

Since I am not privy to the whole story, I will only comment on this part...

First Article Quote:
Quote:
 
Israeli army chief Lt. Gen. Moshe Yaalon said Israel has no choice but to act because Palestinian militants have succeeded in smuggling rocket-propelled grenade launchers into Rafah, with the help of Iran and the Iranian-funded Hezbollah guerrilla group in Lebanon.

What if anything is Israel doing to address this problem (third party interference into the Palestinian/Israeli conflict by supplying illegal arms, etc.)? Can they do anything (what resources are at their disposal)? The neighboring Arab countries are obviously not going to do anything to help resolve this issue (by cracking down on terrorist groups, sympathizers, etc. within their own borders). The way that I see the situation right now, is that there is little hope for the Israeli/Palestinian conflict to be resolved while these third parties are interfering (providing illegal arms to these Palestinian militants).

If Israel can’t do anything about these third parties, then that leaves the US. I can’t help but think the US will eventually be drawn militarily into the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as a part of our War on Terror. Where this will send our troops next is any guess (Iran? Syria?).


PS. I don't want to take this thread off on a tangent. I just wanted to throw a few questions out there and provide an update on the general topic of the thread by providing another link.
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Admiralbill_gomec
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somerled
May 18 2004, 11:46 AM
my major concern about it is that it is such a small sample , only a couple of thousand people out of 5 - 6 million Palestinians and so (some of) the answers may not be statistically valid. (This is indicated by the bimodal nature of many of the responses - depending on which subgroup of Palestinians were queried.

Oh please... 1500 people is a valid number of samples for a population of 300 million (±3.5%), so why wouldn't a greater number be more accurate for a smaller population? (Somewhere between the second and third sigma)
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Bill:

I know something about statistics and the sample size is obviously too small (unless you are prepared to accept very wide confidence limits).

The fact that the results were bimodal (you know what that means ? and implies statistically) indicates also that the sample size was not statistically valid , the classical S shaped cummulative probably curve will result from statistically valid samples.

wrt : a sample 1500 people from 300M in the USA will only serve as a rough indicator, and that sample size is chosen only because it is cheaper than a statistically more valid sample.
Prove your confidence limits of +/- 3% , or did you lift that from somewhere.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
The 3% is mentioned by the people who took the poll or did you miss that?????

You are still wrong.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
Quote:
 
The fact that the results were bimodal (you know what that means ? and implies statistically) indicates also that the sample size was not statistically valid , the classical S shaped cummulative probably curve will result from statistically valid samples.

Somerled,

Would you elaborate on bimodality in this context? This is a term that applies to certain musics, and was central to one aspect of my dissertation. I don't know if there are any parallels, but I'd like to hear more specifically what the term means in another context.
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