Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Will they be compensated for loosing their homes ?; I wonder.
Topic Started: May 14 2004, 06:48 AM (886 Views)
somerled
Member Avatar
Admiral MacDonald RN
Anova :

:headscratch: ? :headscratch:

You realise that what you said was nonsense ?
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
ANOVA
Vice Admiral
^^^
Must be becuase your statement, that many of the homes in the Arab occupied terratories are equally nonsensical.

Palestinians can't be refugees if they are living in the domeciles of thier parents and grand parents.

ANOVA
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
somerled
May 16 2004, 08:23 AM
Anova :

:headscratch: ? :headscratch:

You realise that what you said was nonsense ?

Hmmm, he only took what you said and extrapolated that it meant that any Palestinian currently living in a home that has been in thier family for centuries cannot lay claim to land in what is currently Israel. Think about it.

And while we are on the subject of what a life is worth. Instead of demolishing homes would you rather the Israelies barge in and shoot a bunch of people in revenge? I know you think that is what I want, but it is not. I want people to live, but there has to be some repurcussions for thier actions.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Vger_art
Member Avatar
To baldly go
Minuet
May 16 2004, 09:52 AM
somerled
May 16 2004, 08:23 AM
Anova :

:headscratch: ? :headscratch:

You realise that what you said was nonsense ? Hmmm, he only took what you said and extrapolated that it meant that any Palestinian currently living in a home that has been in thier family for centuries cannot lay claim to land in what is currently Israel. Think about it.

I think you're mistaking. These demolished houses were not on israeli soil but on palestinian territory, the Gaza strip. In that sense Somerled is right, these palestinians are refugees in their own land.

Minuet
May 16 2004, 09:52 AM
somerled
May 16 2004, 08:23 AM

And while we are on the subject of what a life is worth. Instead of demolishing homes would you rather the Israelies barge in and shoot a bunch of people in revenge? I know you think that is what I want, but it is not. I want people to live, but there has to be some repurcussions for thier actions.

Who's actions? Do you really believe these repurcussions will actually harm those responsible for terrorist attacks? You shouldn't generalize palestinians like that, you wouldn't say all americans are sadists for torturing iraqi prisoners would you? All this does is create more terrorists, not less. Besides, these houses were demolished for security reasons, to widen a buffer zone, not as a direct retaliation or something.

I don't believe you have a open mind in this matter.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
ANOVA
Vice Admiral
Quote:
 
refugees in their own land.


Now there's a convoluted concept.

I live in my fathers' father's house and can claim refugee staus. HMMMMM.

I don't think so.

While I'll admit that there are Arabs who have a legitamate gripe about thier status. This gripe is not with Israel. It was their fellow Arabs that told them to leave what is now Israel.

Besides, Somerled can't have it both ways. Either these people were refugees in "temporary" housing, or they were " mud huts (that)have been family homes for centuries and stayed in the same family all that time. Destroying these is paramount to demolishing a historic building,..."

refugee A person who flees usually to another country for refuge, esp. from invasion, oppression, or persecution.

So they fled to the familial homestead. From where were they fleeing? refugees in their own land, indeed.

ANOVA
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Quote:
 
Besides, these houses were demolished for security reasons, to widen a buffer zone, not as a direct retaliation or something.


V'ger, would there be a need for a buffer zone if the Palestinians were not murdering Israelies? Sorry. Your point does not make sense. Yes, there are innocent people losing thier homes, but they are blaming the wrong people. Number one, as Anova already pointed out and as we have told Somerled many times, the refugee problem was caused when the people chose to believe thier Arab "brothers" were going to drive the Jews into the sea. Some Arabs chose to stay in Israel. They were rewarded with full citizenship and are full members of Israeli society including political representation. Those who left gave up this priviledge. By the way, Jordan took more land from what was to be Palestine then Israel has. And Israel won a war in which it was NOT the aggressor fair and square. To the winners usually go the spoils.

I have said it before and I will say it again. If the Palestinian people would stop supporting the terrorists in thier midst then they might have a chance at real peace and a homeland. If they persist in expecting to drive the Israelies into the sea then there is no chance for peace.

Quote:
 
I don't believe you have a open mind in this matter.


You are right about that, but it doesn't mean that I am wrong. And Somerled does not have an open mind either. He persists in blaming only one side for the problems.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
somerled
Member Avatar
Admiral MacDonald RN
Anova and Minuet:
There would only need to be buffer zone if the settlements weren't where they shouldn't be (this IS Palestinian territory and as such Israel has no right doing what they are doing, and it is accepted as such by the UN and most of the civilised world), and hence provoking attacks.

Quote:
 
Besides, Somerled can't have it both ways. Either these people were refugees in "temporary" housing, or they were " mud huts (that)have been family homes for centuries and stayed in the same family all that time. Destroying these is paramount to demolishing a historic building,..."
The Palestinians have been occupying that territory for a couple of millenia now - and they ARE by Israel's actions and policies refugees in THEIR own home land. The IDF's policy of collective punishment is unreasonable and totally inequitable.

Irrespective of the age , construction and permanence of these HUNDREDS of homes that have been demolished by the IDF - these are people's homes just as much as your home is , and were loved, treasured and prized by these now homeless families (including innocent men, women, children & infants) . How would you feel if someone came along with a bulldozer and told you to get out immediately , and proceeded to demolish your home and all destroy all your possessions without hope or possibility of your ever getting compensation - simply because they did not like you or your people - but wait - didn't something similar happen in Europe to your very own people - so why are you personally so bigotted and unsympathetic towards the general Palestinian population (the vast majority of whom just want to live their lives in peace and had done nothing to harm anyone) ?

Israel is simply sowing the seeds of more hatred towards them - and are too bloody minded to see it.

Quote:
 
To the winners usually go the spoils
This may be the attitude a some of your brethren, but it is not the attitude of the rest of the world or of the UN.

I'll ask - are the Jordanians persecuting the Palestinians who are living in Jordan in the same manner as the Israelis are ?
Show us how much of what used to be Palestine was annexed by Jordan.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Dandandat
Member Avatar
Time to put something here
somerled
May 17 2004, 08:22 AM
How would you feel if someone came along with a bulldozer and told you to get out immediately , and proceeded to demolish your home and all destroy all your possessions without hope or possibility of your ever getting compensation - simply because they did not like you or your people

Well - how would you feel if you got home one day only to find that your children haven’t come home yet. And then get the worst call of your life, to which you find out the reason they haven’t come home yet is because a group of Palestinians took hostage of their Bus and blow it up? I bet the calmest and most rational thought you would have would be to build a wall.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
somerled
May 17 2004, 08:22 AM
How would you feel if someone came along with a bulldozer and told you to get out immediately , and proceeded to demolish your home and all destroy all your possessions without hope or possibility of your ever getting compensation - simply because they did not like you or your people - but wait - didn't something similar happen in Europe to your very own people - so why are you personally so bigotted and unsympathetic towards the general Palestinian population


And here you go twisting facts again in your bigoted one sided manner.

You damn well know this has nothing to do with not liking Palestinians. Since you appeared to be a bit dim witted I will repeat for the 20th or 30th time THERE ARE ARABS LIVING AS FULL CITIZENS WITHIN ISRAEL PROPER. THE SO CALLED REFUGEE PROBLEM WAS SELF IMPOSED. NO ONE WAS ASKED TO LEAVE WHEN ISRAEL WAS CREATED BY THE UN.

The buffer zone is nessesary as long as the murdering of innocent Israelis continues. Why do you place more value on a Palestinian home then an Israeli life?

Drawing parallels to Nazi Germany is a favorite ploy of anti-semites. The situation is totally different. I don't see any gas chambers in the West Bank. In fact the only people being killed indiscriminately are Jews and that occurs because thier morals prevent them from taking the same approach as the terrorists.

Quote:
 
I'll ask - are the Jordanians persecuting the Palestinians who are living in Jordan in the same manner as the Israelis are ?
Show us how much of what used to be Palestine was annexed by Jordan


As a matter of fact - Yes. Many are in camps and have not been integrated into Jordanian society. I ran a quick check on google (something you could easily have done yourself) and immediately found a non partisan description of life for Palestinians on the East Bank (as opposed to West Bank)

Religion in Jordan - Palestinians

Here is a second, admittedly partisan, view of the situation.

Jordan is Palestine

Quote:
 
"Palestine and Jordan are one..." said King Abdullah in 1948.

"The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan," said King Hussein of Jordan, in 1981.


Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Now it's time for Somerled's standard reply. Something along the lines of "I'll check your sources when I have time". Then he disappears and the subject is dropped for the time being until he decides to start a new thread with dubious allegations.

Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
somerled
Member Avatar
Admiral MacDonald RN
I do not know how I would respond - I would hope I would remain reasonably calm and rational and would not do anything to exasibate the situation.

The point is that the very great majority of Palestinians have nothing to do with terrorist attack, and most do not support these actions, but they are the ones who are suffering the penalties because they can offer little or no resistance and are easy targets for vindictive revenge taking. That is what this is all about .

The Brits have/had a similar problem in Ireland , did we see them sending in the tanks and bulldozers to demolish the homes of people they thought were related to the terrorists after bombings and shootings and murders (of soldiers, police and "colaborators") ?
Even when the IRA bombed English cities and London they declined to step over that line.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
somerled
Member Avatar
Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet :

Get a grip.

From the religious site Religion in Palestine
Quote:
 
Al Karak is not representative of the impact of Palestinians on East Bank society and culture. In 1948 the population of the East Bank was about 340,000. The 1950 annexation of the West Bank increased the population by about 900,000. This increase included the West Bank population itself (around 400,000 to 450,000) and about 450,000 refugees from those areas of Palestine that became Israel in 1948. In addition, many thousands of Palestinians not classified as refugees entered Jordan after 1948. As a result of the June 1967 War, in 1967 an additional 250,000 to 300,000 West Bank Palestinians entered Jordan as refugees.

Most of the refugees, inside and outside refugee camps, continued to live in Amman and areas to the north. In 1986 UNRWA reported that 826,128 Palestinians were registered as refugees in the East Bank; of these, nearly one-fourth resided in camps. Many other refugees lived on the fringes of the economy in urban areas.

A substantial number of Palestinians had the kind of education and entrepreneurial capacity that enabled them to achieve substantial economic status. A few brought some of their wealth from Palestine. Some became large landowners or businessmen, whereas others became professionals or technicians. A number worked for the government, often in posts requiring prior training. Many Palestinians were merchants on a small or medium scale,

This sounds very different to what is happening to the Palestinians in the Palestinian Territories.

Some very interesting links there that you can be sure I'll take a squiz at.

As to Jordan is Palestine , it like the other doesn't answer the question either.

Quote:
 
Why do you place more value on a Palestinian home then an Israeli life?

Why can't I value both ?

Quote:
 
REFUGEE PROBLEM WAS SELF IMPOSED. NO ONE WAS ASKED TO LEAVE WHEN ISRAEL WAS CREATED BY THE UN.

Perhaps - can you not understand the fears these people would have had after living under the harsh rule of the Ottamans (who were to them Europeans) and with their history of invasion , colonisation, persecution over the centuries by other Europeans.
I can well understand why - after what they had seen happen in Europe why these people might not want to stick around when the first jewish settlers started arriving and after the Brits sold them out.


Quote:
 
Drawing parallels to Nazi Germany is a favorite ploy of anti-semites.
Really ? - not being or mixing with antisemites I wouldn't know.

Quote:
 
I don't see any gas chambers in the West Bank. In fact the only people being killed indiscriminately are Jews and that occurs because thier morals prevent them from taking the same approach as the terrorists.

No - no gas chambers.
Plenty of indescriminate killing (too much of it) on both sides - many more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis and jewish people.









Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Wichita
Member Avatar
The Adminstrator wRench
:headscratch: :headscratch:

Did you read the links you posted, Somerled?

Edit: I'm sorry - I should have been clearer. Your links don't seem to support your point.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Quote:
 
Minuet :

Get a grip.


Stop patronizing me

Quote:
 
Most of the refugees, inside and outside refugee camps, continued to live in Amman and areas to the north. In 1986 UNRWA reported that 826,128 Palestinians were registered as refugees in the East Bank; of these, nearly one-fourth resided in camps. Many other refugees lived on the fringes of the economy in urban areas.


The middle paragraph of what you quoted. Fringes of the economy doesn't sound very good. And 25% are in camps. Well, 100% of those who did not try to flee Israel in 1948 are full citizens. Remember, the West Bank was controlled by Jordan until 1967. Jordan created those camps.

Quote:
 
As to Jordan is Palestine , it like the other doesn't answer the question either.


Actually, if you read it critically it answers the question about the land taken by Jordan. In other words, both the East Bank and the West Bank. Israel got the West Bank later. But no one is forcing Jordan to give the East Bank up to the Palestinian people or even politely requesting it.

Quote:
 
QUOTE 
Quote:
 
Why do you place more value on a Palestinian home then an Israeli life?



Why can't I value both ?


Frankly, on this board you have not shown you value both. Why don't you prove you value both by starting a thread asking Arafat and the Palestinian Authority to compensate the families of the victims of terror? Oh, and I know I have mentioned this previously but it's been a long time, so I will mention also that when Israel was created Jews were expelled from most Arab mid East countries, without compensation. Should they be given compensation? Or maybe after so much time we should just call it even.

Quote:
 
QUOTE 
Quote:
 
Drawing parallels to Nazi Germany is a favorite ploy of anti-semites.


Really ? - not being or mixing with antisemites I wouldn't know.


You may not mix with them, but you have obviously fallen for thier online PROPAGANDA hook line and sinker.

Quote:
 
No - no gas chambers.
Plenty of indescriminate killing (too much of it) on both sides - many more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis and jewish people


This is where you are wrong. Yes, more Palestinians have died. But first you need to eliminate those who commit suicide/homicide from any list of dead Palestinians as they were not killed by Israelis. Second, the Israelis have not been indiscrimnate. They have been very discriminating. Funny, you were the one upset with targetted assasinations by Israel, however this is as discriminating as it gets and helps to protect the innocent. Third, the Palestinian terrorists need to stop hiding in crowds of "innocents". Or are they really innocent? Those who choose to hide and shelter terrorists do not deserve the title of "innocent" If the majority really do not support terror then why have they not risen against the terrorists and thrown them out of thier midst? And why does the Palestinian Authority and other mid East governments continue to financially compensate the families of homicide bombers?

Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
somerled
Member Avatar
Admiral MacDonald RN
OK here's the dimension of this problem :
Quote:
 
12,600 Rafah Palestinians have been made homeless by the destruction of homes by Israeli forces since an uprising began in 2000.
fromPalestinians Flee Gaza Homes; Qurie Appeals to U.S. That's an appalling outcome.

That's a lot of people made homeless in a country who has no means of providing public funded housing for these people after they loose their homes and all their possessions.

Anywhere else and that scale of disaster would attract immediate international relief and outrage.

How would everyone in a crowded street be expected to know there is criminal amongst them ? - They aren't exactly carrying a sign in big indelible flashing letters saying I am a terrorist - now are they ?
ie when you are the mall , and in amongst the crowds you would think it unreasonable if you were held responsible for the actions of a total stranger who happened to be in that crowd.

So when the IDF engages in missile attacks from helicopters firing into crowded streets in the hope they might take out an terrorist and killing or maiming innocent bystanders as well as maybe the target - that looks very indescriminate to me.

I'll stop patronising you when you earn it. It cuts both ways.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Fully Featured & Customizable Free Forums
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Politics and World Events Forum · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Tweet
comments powered by Disqus