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| Japan, Germany, WWII | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 12 2004, 11:39 AM (264 Views) | |
| Dandandat | May 12 2004, 11:39 AM Post #1 |
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Time to put something here
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:offtopic:
Why did Truman believe it was the right idea to go a head with this? Was it so that the Russians wouldn’t take Japan first? Was Hiroshima and Nagasaki the first casualties of the cold war? |
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| Fesarius | May 12 2004, 11:46 AM Post #2 |
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Admiral
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^^^ I don't know for certain. But, through a curious set of oddly circuitous circumstances, Russia was our ally at this time. (Some might say it's an example of politics making strange bedfellows. In this case, stopping Hitler at all costs.) Your comment about the Cold War casualties could be correct, but I've never thought of the Cold War as having begun that early. Again, since we were allies with Russia, that would not have occurred to me. |
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| ds9074 | May 12 2004, 11:50 AM Post #3 |
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Admiral
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Well a conventional invasion of a heavily defended island was going to be very costly in lives and take time. A Japanese surrender was much more desirable. Its just sad that so many people had to die, but in that war a lot of civilians died as it was a different kind of warfare (look at Dresden where more people died). As far as I am aware 1945 was the last time any nuclear weapon was fired in anger and I would like to keep it that way. We were the ones saying Saddams WMD posed a threat to the region, the last thing we need to do is use our own WMD on the region. |
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| Fesarius | May 12 2004, 11:55 AM Post #4 |
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Admiral
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DS, I don't believe the weapon was fired in anger. Heck, we had nearly four years to think about it (Pearl Harbor, 1941; Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Aug. 1945). But, it may have been the last time any nuclear weapon was fired on a live target. (I know I'm going to be called on this! ;)) |
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| Dwayne | May 12 2004, 11:55 AM Post #5 |
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Profanity deleted by Hoss
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Yes ... the Soviets were a huge factor in the decision to nuke Japan. http://www.webster.sk.ca/greenwich/hiro2bmb.htm |
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| Fesarius | May 12 2004, 12:00 PM Post #6 |
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Admiral
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[Sorry to be off-topic again. Perhaps we need a WWII thread?] Dandandat, I just read some of the link. This bit was salient: "On July 24th, I casually mentioned to Stalin that we had a new weapon of special destructive force. The Russian Premier showed no unusual interest. All he said was that he was glad to hear it and hoped we would make 'good use of it' against the Japanese. Truman was annoyed that the Russians, having pushed the Nazis from the USSR al[l] the way back to Germany, were now in Berlin; that their influence from the war would grow in Europe. He wanted a Sword of Damocles to hang over Russia's head. It was too late to show them the bomb in use against Germany." |
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| Dr. Noah | May 12 2004, 12:00 PM Post #7 |
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Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
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Actually this off topic discussion is really interesting. When I was student teaching, we had a critical thinking project about the bombing of Japan. If I recall there were three possible actions 1. Nuke Japan 2. Invade with ground troops 3. Set up a blockade and wait for Japan to crumble from within. Most students took option 3 because it meant less loss of life and Japan would at the same time be defeated without colonial petroleum to sustain it. Who knows how that would've turned out, but as I understand it, part of the reason for the bombing was to strike fear into the Soviet heart that we had the ultimate weapon. |
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| Dandandat | May 12 2004, 12:00 PM Post #8 |
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Time to put something here
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The seeds of the cold war where sown during WWII. Yes they where our allies but that was a shaky alliance. We were friends only because we had a common enemy. But there was much tension between the west as the Russians. And there was much strategy set (on both sides) to limit the control each had on newly liberated territory. The way it worked was that who ever moved into a territory first would be in control of it and would be responsible to build back the governments of that territory. So Territory liberated by the Russians would undoubtedly be pressured into becoming communist and ally them selves with Russia. While Territory liberated by the west would become republics beholden to the west. Nether side wanted the other to get to much Territory. One of the big reasons (I believe) that Truman wanted to end the war as fast as possible (with the A-bomes) was so that Russia would have no hand in defeating Japan (and out lining territories) and so would have no claim in its reconstruction. Which would be a decisive victory in the not yet coined cold war. |
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| Fesarius | May 12 2004, 12:04 PM Post #9 |
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Admiral
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Dandandat, Well, I did say "But, through a curious set of oddly circuitous circumstances...".
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| Fesarius | May 12 2004, 12:09 PM Post #10 |
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Admiral
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Dandandat, Thanks. Now, what were you saying about Japan and the U.S. being allies during WWII?
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| doctortobe | May 12 2004, 12:24 PM Post #11 |
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Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
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Let's look at the three possible scenarios for the defeat of Japan. 1. Nuke Japan We've already seen the consequences of this so we'll skip it. 2. Invade with ground troops This would have been incredibly bloody. The Japanese believed that you must fight to the death. After the war was over, many pamphlets were discovered telling civilians how to fight. They included many gruesome lies about what would happen to them if caught. Remember, many Japanese civilians threw themselves off of cliffs rather then be captured on many of the islands we fought on. 3. Set up a blockade and wait for Japan to crumble from within. Not likely to work. The Japanese Air Force was already decimated, they had no real armored divisions. The majority of their remaining strength was in their infantry. This needs no oil to maintain. Japan had more then enough agricultural resources to outlast any blockade. There is a more deadly reason why the blockade would not have worked. Japan had recently acquired not only plans for German jets, but even a working model of the engine. The Japanese were in the process of creating massive factories in mountainsides and were even planning to construct mountainside hangers. As a matter of fact, a test model of a Japanese built fet fighter was air tested DAYS before the atomic attacks. Do you know how much havoc jet fighters would play on our mostly unescorted B-29's? Do you know what jets could have done to the Pacific Fleet? Atomic bombing was the only viable solution. Fesarius- I am calling you out on your atomic bombs on live subjects post. The US tested frequently on pigs and sheep. The Chinese actually had soldiers on horses charge into the first blast they set off. They were all wearing gas masks so I'm sure they all survived just fine. |
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| Fesarius | May 12 2004, 12:29 PM Post #12 |
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Admiral
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Doctortobe, Yes, I knew I should have said something like 'humans' when I referred to live subjects.
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| Dr. Noah | May 12 2004, 12:31 PM Post #13 |
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Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
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Doc, you know you can't run jets without petroleum either right? |
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| doctortobe | May 12 2004, 12:37 PM Post #14 |
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Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
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Yes, however do you believe that Japanese petroleum reserves would just magically disappear? Unlike Germany, Japan did not have to fly over Western Europe to strike their targets, theirs were right off the coast. You would be surprised at how much gas you save when you only need to fly a couple hundred miles. |
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| Dr. Noah | May 12 2004, 12:45 PM Post #15 |
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Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
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So you think a few prototype jets and petroleum reserve was enough to take out the US blockade? And justify nuking people? A lot of people in hindsight think it wasn't necessary to nuke Japan. Japan was defeated, their colonies liberated, thier Emporer shamed, thier resources dwindling, there is little they could've done, if anything. Part of the reason I'm sure had something to do with heavy casualties in the Pacific theater and to scare the bejeezus out of Stalin. I'm not saying it wasn't necessary, it just seems a little excessive in hindsight. But then again, I have the luxury of looking back on a situation rather than being in the middle of it. |
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9:12 AM Jul 11