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Reaction to the Nick Berg outrage
Topic Started: May 12 2004, 12:50 AM (1,728 Views)
ImpulseEngine
Admiral
I haven't yet read this whole thread so I apologize in advance if it doesn't fit right or repeats what has already been said. I'm short on time - it's been a very busy day.

I read more than half of the posts and I see suggestions that amount to shooting guilty Muslims on sight, dropping an A-bomb equivalent, tearing down and rebuilding Islam, or killing as many Muslims as possible with no regard for woman, children, or innocents.

I realize people are angry and rightly so. I ended up watching the video despite not really wanting to. I watched it because what I read about it on the internet didn't fit together with what I heard about it on TV and radio and I decided I wanted to know what really happened. Quite frankly, I wish I had stuck to my original intention of not watching it. I don't think I'll ever get that image out of my head. I watched it last night and was nauseous for the rest of the evening. I still feel quite sickened and outraged by it today.

I quite understand the anger that is being expressed in this thread.

But I don't agree with the solutions that some have offered.

We must not resort to indiscriminate killings. That would be like any of us being killed for what our government, religious leaders, or bosses are guilty of. That would just be plain wrong. Period. I don't even like the killing on sight suggestion. This week we have a report that 70-90% of arrests have been made in error. What if all those people had been killed on sight...

I can't go along with advocating the same kind of barbarism that these animals are guilty of. The horror of that slaying just underscores that point. If there is one thing that is obvious about that video it's that it is not ok EVER FOR ANY REASON.

So what do we do...?

The truth about the Nazi's is that a great many of them were sheep. I don't excuse any of them for what they did because they let their own conscience be dictated by fear, pride, social pressures, and any number of other inexcusable reasons. But under different leadership, I believe those same sheep would have behaved as completely different people. Studies have been done on this. People who are normally good can become animals in similar environments.

IMO, we need to get at the root of the problem to fix it and not just start aiming blindly at anything that even remotely might be guilty. The root lies with its leaders and organizers. Take down the leaders and organizers and put better leaders in their places and most of the rest will follow. Once a better overall society is in place, the remaining extremists can be dealt with by that better society and its method of enforcing laws.

And many of those same people who would be dead under some of the other suggestions here - good people, innocent people - will still be alive.
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Intrepid2002
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UNGH!
doctortobe
May 12 2004, 01:32 PM
DS, you are so full of it. The Islamic religion is no different then the Nazis and Bushido Japan. Who were we to take them down? Just because they attacked us? Couldn't we have just tried to make peace with the Nazis? You remind me of PM Chamberlain you know that?

And BTW, FDR was strongly on the left side of the spectrum but he agreed that only total war would bring down the forces of fascism. That means that your ability to go the distance needed to take down your enemy does not lie in your political allignment, it lies in your INTESTINAL FORTITUDE.

Why does Islam get the PC protection when Nazism and Bushido did not? Bushido was just as much a religion as Islam is. Oh, and BTW, how often do Jews and Christians drag the bodies of dead soldiers through the streets and decapitate civilians? If they were doing stuff like that, I would be advocating their downfall as well.

Quote:
 

The Islamic religion is no different then the Nazis and Bushido Japan


Quantify that. Do you mean all people who practice Islam or Islamic extremists?
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Sgt. Jaggs
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How about a Voyager Movie
My apologies and condolences on the suffering that you endured throughout that Mad Max Thunderdome abortion. Wanna hear Tina Turner and 'We don't need another Hero' anytime soon? Next time you might do better with a Richard Simmons Vid and a swift kick to the family jewels. That is about how I feel about the film. Captain Proton could not really be a man, or she would hate that movie too! :lol: :lol: Ok Ok only tyint togethor past threads, calm down.


If we are at war, then lets make some mushroom clouds. Daisy Cutters for now, I still do not think that Nukes should be used. If we do not have the tolerance for this brutal nonsense of lopping off peoples domes and humiliating people, dog bitings and the like, we should run home, hide under a blankie and cry.
It must be all or nothing militarily. Bush and Rummy can spin all they need to in the Beltway and Edward Kennedy can be as outraged as he wants.
Overwhelming force is required here.
Overwhelming Commitment.
My reaction to Nick's execution? Many more nice kind Muslims prepare to be filled with hot lead. Lets see if we can reduce that 1 billion number. Lofty goal eh?
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Intrepid2002
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UNGH!
The Sisko
May 12 2004, 02:47 PM
All Muslims support Al Qaeda? Sorry doc, you're wrong about that. You really think all the Muslims in America support terrorism? You think everybody in Turkey supported 9/11? The Chinese in Xinjiang providence? Not all Muslims are alike. Not all Muslims support terrorism. It's really unfortunate that you think that. I really hope there arn't a lot of people who feel that way. I fear for Muslims in America.

Funny you should mention that. I was listening to our local talk radio today and of course there was all the rhetoric you hear from right wing talk radio. It was a
lot of anger and "let's finish them all" rhetoric. Nuke em, kill em, fry em etc. etc.
What scared me was listening to a man who said that he and his friends wanted to avenge the death of Nick Berg and wouldn't mind if a Muslim was beheaded. It was they almost wanted to go out and find the first middle eastern looking person they could find and behead them. I know it's a lot of venting but what if it all get's out of hand?

So we wipe out Iraq and it's people off the face of the planet. What do we do with the Muslims in Afghanistan? Pakistan? Syria? Saudi Arabia? England? Singapore? Philippines? and oh yes, the United States? What then? Others have implied that Muslims don't deserve to be civilized. The rhetoric is sickening.

Scary stuff Sisko, scary stuff.

Right now, I'm so saddened by what has happened to Nick Berg. Is it true that one of the last things he said was that he was Jewish? I just heard that and don't know if it's true. Do the Jewish faithful have martyrs? If he was Catholic, he could be one. It's so so so sad. :no: :no:
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
I'm not advocating the genocide of every Muslem on earth, I am saying that we cannot allow Islam to continue in its present form. The way we are doing things now, we are only delaying the inevitable by putting people who listen blindly to clerics in charge of their government. They will never exercise their free will. If their clerics told them to vote for George Bush, guess who would be the next president of Iraq?

Before we can have any hope of having democracy and peace in the Middle East, we have to drive a wedge between Islam and government. We have to make it so that people will actually exercise their free will and not just follow lockstep with their faction. To do this, we need to ween them from the clerics. To do this, we need to control the clerics. To do this, we must gain power over the region. To do this requires war. Not the go in stay a month and come out war, not the laser missle hitting only one building war, but TOTAL WAR.

We need the Muslems to fear us. This means large scale attacks on cities, not just military targets. When we just take out the military and leave the civilians alone, they need only bide their time until we leave then revert things back to normal. We must go in, take control, indoctrinate, then move on. Leave a garrison force in the cities that will maintain iron rule until the war is over, then dictate how the Muslems will form their governments. This may sound barbaric, but it is nothing different then what we did 60 years ago.

I have seen the question, how does that make us different from the terrorists? The answer is simple. If we were to totally back out of the Middle East and halt all attacks, the Muslems would still attack us. If the Muslems would cease their attacks on us, we would live in peace with them.

I have also been asked to explain what I mean by Islam being like Bushido and Nazism. By that I mean that a few people exert COMPLETE control over all the members. Both the fanatics and the clerics have their own people brainwashed to their line of thinking. Like the Nazis and the Japanese, the average Muslem may not be the type to spontaneously strap a bomb to his chest and blow people up, but he is so ingrained with the fanatic's philosophy, that he need only receive the order and he will do so.

He will either do this out of fear, loyalty, or peer pressure. Islam is his life, if he turns his back on Islam, then he is effectively disowned by his society. This makes every Muslem citizen, like those of Bushido Japan, a de facto enemy who should be treated as such. Want proof? Who are the people attacking soldiers in Iraq? They are Iraqis either willingly fighting to kill Americans or pressed into service to kill Americans. Either way they are still enemies. There may be those who would refuse to fight in any case, but how do you identify them? Do they walk around with a "I'm not going to kill you" sticker on their head? I think not.

I have also seen a thread saying that we should isolate ourselves from the Muslems. That is an interesting idea seeing as how that is what Isreal is attempting to do right now. However, that is only going to put off the problem for a future generation to deal with. Is the rest of the world going to move forward while the Middle East still sits in the 13th century? No, we have to act now.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Doc:
Quote:
 
Really, I do realize that the majority of the Muslem population does not hold the same ideals as the fanatics. Hell, the majority of the Germans probably didn't have the same views as the SS. But, like the Germans, the Muslems support the fanatics. They do so because their clerics tell them to do so. ALL the Germans in WWII were targets due to the fact that they supported Hitler's war effort. Why shouldn't all Muslems be targets due to their support of OBL?

And don't give me any lies about how only a few Muslems support OBL. There was celebration throughout the streets of cities in the Middle East after 9/11. I have yet to hear a real anti Al Quida sentiment from mainstream Muslem society. Only a few academics have said that Muslems don't support Al Quida, but that is like one man saying that conservatives want gun legislation.


First point - have you considered that they may fear for their very lives if they - in those areas where hard-liners hold sway - come out against these very hard-liners ?
Not all Germans supported Hitler and his henchmen, but they were forced to join the Nazi party in order to survive, and not all Japanese supported the militurists in the Japanese high command or government , but again they had to keep their mouths shut or else.

Second point - you can't have been watching or listening too hard , there have been many very strong condemnations of ABL and Al-Quaeda , and their associated groups by Islamic clerics and Islamic diplomats.
Ever heard the term - rent a crowd - many of the demonstrations you see are likely unemployed people who have been given a few dollars or shakels or pounds or dracmar or what ever they call money - to make a demostration. A bit like the demonstration of happiness put on when Saddam's statue was toppled.
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Swidden
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Adm. Gadfly-at-large; Provisional wRench-fly at large
I realize I am coming in late on this one and this thread has already wandered off in it's own unique direction.

I cannot say that I am completely surprised by this development following the events reported from the Iraqi prison. That it was posted on the Net in all its gory detail clearly shows the barbarism that these terrorists are capable of commiting.

Frankly, I don't see this altering substantially our methods in fighting the war in Iraq. I can only hope that we will be able to finally track down this Zawaqiri (?sp.) bastard and help arrange his introduction to Allah with all due haste.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Intrepid:
Quote:
 
Is it true that one of the last things he said was that he was Jewish? I just heard that and don't know if it's true. Do the Jewish faithful have martyrs? If he was Catholic, he could be one. It's so so so sad. 

Is that right - or is it just a rumour ?

None-the-less he did not die because of his religious leanings - he died because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. How does that make him anything other than unlucky ?
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
I'm not sure of the exact question here. Berg was Jewish, but I don't know if that was the last thing he said.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
Off-topic--

Quote:
 
Do the Jewish faithful have martyrs?

I don't know. The fall of Masada, however, is one of the most moving stories in all of history. I don't know if the Jews that died there considered themselves martyrs or not. But the courage demonstrated there is IMO unparalleled.
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Minuet
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I just did a quick search of stories on Mr. Berg and he was Jewish.

As to Somerled's question on whether or not being Jewish has a bearing on what happened to him, the answer could well be yes. Just look what happened to Daniel Pearl. There have been many kidnappings in Iraq, including some Canadians who have been released after negotiations. We may not be hearing much about it but I am sure there are other hostages right now. Berg may well have been chosen for this "demonstration" because he was both American and Jewish.

As to whether he is a martyr in the Jewish religion to be honest I haven't seen that term used much in modern times (there are martyrs in the bible). We don't call everyone a martyr in the same way that Muslims do. I will have to do a bit more research on the topic before giving a definitive answer.


Edit - By the way Somerled - have you read my answer to your comments earlier in this thread. You owe me an apology for stating that I have said things that I did not.
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somerled
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Minuet:

OK , I'll take your word for it if you say he was jewish , and I concede that could have made him a target . (But isn't every westerner in Iraq a target now ?)

The question now is - did his murderers know he was jewish when they abducted him , did they target him specifically or just abduct him in a random oppitunistic manner , and did they find out somehow about his ethnicity before they butchered him ?

As to the earlier post - Do I ? Prove your allegation.
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Intrepid2002
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UNGH!
somerled
May 13 2004, 02:32 AM
Intrepid:
Quote:
 
Is it true that one of the last things he said was that he was Jewish? I just heard that and don't know if it's true. Do the Jewish faithful have martyrs? If he was Catholic, he could be one. It's so so so sad.  

Is that right - or is it just a rumour ?

None-the-less he did not die because of his religious leanings - he died because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. How does that make him anything other than unlucky ?

It was just something I heard over talk radio so I'm saying rumor. You can't believe everything you hear on talk radio. I just heard it in passing and wondered if it was true. I haven't had to time or the guts to delve more deeply into the details of his death.

What you say is absolutely true. The man was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm sure the Abu Ghraib fiasco didn't help his circumstances any but again, it has been said he would of died anyway and the Iraqi prisoner fiasco was just an excuse to kill another innocent American with tinges of anti-jewish propoganda. If it was true, why in the heck would they make him say that? Things can get so twisted. :no:

It's a sorry time for America.
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Minuet
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somerled
May 13 2004, 09:41 AM
Minuet:

Do I ?

Prove your allegation.

WTF are you going on about? I have to prove that I didn't say what you said I said. What a crock of BS!!!!!!!!!

You stated that I advocated nuking Palestinians - who were not even a part of this discussion - when in fact I did not advocate nuking anyone. I only noted that nuking Hiroshima helped bring an end to WWII.

You are totally unbelievable. :realmad: :realmad:
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Minuet
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Intrepid2002
May 13 2004, 09:41 AM
somerled
May 13 2004, 02:32 AM
Intrepid:
Quote:
 
Is it true that one of the last things he said was that he was Jewish? I just heard that and don't know if it's true. Do the Jewish faithful have martyrs? If he was Catholic, he could be one. It's so so so sad.  

Is that right - or is it just a rumour ?

None-the-less he did not die because of his religious leanings - he died because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. How does that make him anything other than unlucky ?

It was just something I heard over talk radio so I'm saying rumor. You can't believe everything you hear on talk radio. I just heard it in passing and wondered if it was true. I haven't had to time or the guts to delve more deeply into the details of his death.

What you say is absolutely true. The man was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm sure the Abu Ghraib fiasco didn't help his circumstances any but again, it has been said he would of died anyway and the Iraqi prisoner fiasco was just an excuse to kill another innocent American with tinges of anti-jewish propoganda. If it was true, why in the heck would they make him say that? Things can get so twisted. :no:

It's a sorry time for America.

Intrepid, go back and read my comments.

I forgot to add that the Canadians that were released told stories of thier captors trying to force them to say they were spying for Israel. These kidnap victims were Muslim!

Being Jewish probably did have a bearing on his being chosen to be beheaded.

Edit - Somerled - they probably didn't know when they kidnapped him, but as I stated they do interrogate and torture thier prisoners and try to force false confessions out of them, so it is likely that during this process they did find out he was Jewish. The article I read also quoted his father as saying he carried a prayer shawl with him. That would have identified his religion very quickly.
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