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Reaction to the Nick Berg outrage
Topic Started: May 12 2004, 12:50 AM (1,729 Views)
doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
But their motives are not materialistic like the conquistadors, they were religious. Islam as a religion has turned into a religion of hate. They refuse to come out of the Middle Ages. Whereas Christians finally had a reformation and started to pursue more enlightened goals, Islam has been militeristic for its entire existance. Even if many of the terrorists don't follow the tenents of Islam, they are admired by the Islamic people. Are the suicide bombers forced to carry out their missions? No, they are promised rewards in heaven and their families are paid a small fortune. Do the people in Somalia and Iraq forced to shoot at us? No, they do it of their own free will and they damn well enjoy when they kill someone.
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
ds9074
May 12 2004, 11:19 AM
Who the hell are we to take down Islam and rebuild it? We have no right to do so. Imagine if someone on this board was suggesting taking down Jewish society or Christian society by force and rebuilding it. Its a good job that your not in charge doctortobe as you make President Bush look like a moderate.

Who are we, and what right do we have? We are "Western Civilization" and we were attacked by radical elements of Islam.

This war is not just about defeating terrorism, but is also (and I've said this before) about preserving Western Civilization, which is being destroyed from within by people and organizations like Islamofascism.
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somerled
Member Avatar
Admiral MacDonald RN
Doc :
It was my father - not my grandfather - who fought the both the Japanese and the Germans (the Afrika Korps) in WWII and was fortunate enough join the very best AIF division that Australia fielded in WWII and had skilled officers in charge (all Australian - including the commanding general).

Despite the autrocities of the Japanese against POWs (and the locals) , and the AIF knew what was going on (as some POWs managed to escape and make it back to friendly territory - and that my uncle on mum's side who was in the AIF 8th Div which was ordered by the poms to surrender in Singapore and who experienced great deprivations and was virtually starved and worked to death at Hell Fire Pass , and NEVER fully recovered from his treatment even til he died in the late 1980's - spending his life on invalid and TPI (Army) pensions. Mum and dad were engaged early in WWII.

The AIF DID NOT take retributions against the Japanese POWs during the war or immediately after despite despising the inhumane treatment they meeted out to POWs (and the natives), I can not speak for the attitude and actions of the American troop though, others here are better placed to do that.

Your comparison to the Imperial Japanese Army (who were also brutal to their own) is not valid - they were a formal national army , not a bunch of fanatics under the leadership of some diabolically nasty and ruthless nationless warlords, who can blend into the community (a bit like the Viet Cong did in that other quagmire that the Yanks dragged us into).

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I am saying that we cannot win the war on terror until Muslem society is taken down to its foundations and rebuilt. In the path that we are going now, Iraq is doomed to go the path of all the other nations that we tried to mold in our image indirectly.

Why ?

Islamic culture has it's place, and to the most part is benign and civilised.

We are not dealing with another Japan or Germany, the cutures are completely different and maybe western secular democracy will never work in these cultures.
Doesn't the military train it's future officers in cultural awareness ? DS is right , the west has ABSOLUTELY no right or authority to destroy islamic culture just because it's hard for American's to understand and deal with it.

Minuet :
So how is
Quote:
 
Actually it is not Holocaust 2 he is advocating, it is Hiroshima 2.
in your own words any less unwaranted ? crazy ?
And I suspect that if the USA actually did as Doc advocated it would certainly result in global war (not just a few mad bombers here and there) on a scale any sane person dares not contemplate and a holocaust that would make what happened in europe look like a picnic.

You can't possibly be supportive of such an action - even if these people are islamic.

Now you want to nuke the Palestinians , and the Iraqis as well , so who's next on your hit list (apart from me ) ?



The Sisko:
The christians survived only because they were sneeky in the early days, and eventually a Roman Emperor decided he liked Christianity and well that was that - and this decision resulted in the weakening of the Roman Empire and it's ultimate demise.

Fesarius:
The Japanese surrendered only after two A-bombs destroyed outright two cities and after their Emperor decided to save his nation from what must have looked like total extermination if he ordered the Japanese people to fight and never surrender. The Japanese high command did not know that the USA at that time only had two A bombs ready to use. (And only after MacArthur guaranteed his personal safety and immunity from prosecution - ie he saved his own devine arse.)
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
Actually, the Japanese surrender was a month after the A-bombs were dropped.
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
Quote:
 
Your comparison to the Imperial Japanese Army (who were also brutal to their own) is not valid - they were a formal national army , not a bunch of fanatics under the leadership of some diabolically nasty and ruthless nationless warlords.


The Japanese military WAS a bunch of fanatics under the leadership of some diabolically nasty and ruthless warlords. The fact that they had national backing had nothing to do with it.

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Islamic culture has it's place, and to the most part is benign and civilised.


Yes, the Middle Easterners who were celebrating in the streets after 9/11 and the people of Mogadishu were the very model of civility. The people who will only apologize if they can also say that he deserved it are the most compassionate people that I know.

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We are not dealing with another Japan or Germany, the cutures are completely different and maybe western secular democracy will never work in these cultures.


You would have said the same thing about Japan, we made it work anyway.

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Doesn't the military train it's future officers in cultural awareness ?
Why yes we are, but the best teachers about a culture is the culture itself. When you escort children to school only to have their parents shoot at you that same day, it is very hard to look at them in a good light.

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DS is right , the west has ABSOLUTELY no right or authority to destroy islamic culture just because it's hard for American's to under it.


They attacked us, they have done nothing but espouse hatred for us. What further justification do we need? Do they need to destroy the White House? Do they need to nuke a city? Tell me somerland, how many people do the Muslems have to kill before they make their intentions clear?

Oh, and BTW, we are in a global war right now. We have people who want to kill anybody who does not submit to Islam. Tell me, how far down the list do you think Austrailia is?
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Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
Doc, you know that Islamic fundamentalists and fanatics are the minority of Muslim society? There are millions of good honest hardworking compassioate Muslim people. I really hate it when people make blanket statements about millions of people based on a fanatical minority.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
Thanks to all for the corrections. :)
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
Really, I do realize that the majority of the Muslem population does not hold the same ideals as the fanatics. Hell, the majority of the Germans probably didn't have the same views as the SS. But, like the Germans, the Muslems support the fanatics. They do so because their clerics tell them to do so. ALL the Germans in WWII were targets due to the fact that they supported Hitler's war effort. Why shouldn't all Muslems be targets due to their support of OBL?

And don't give me any lies about how only a few Muslems support OBL. There was celebration throughout the streets of cities in the Middle East after 9/11. I have yet to hear a real anti Al Quida sentiment from mainstream Muslem society. Only a few academics have said that Muslems don't support Al Quida, but that is like one man saying that conservatives want gun legislation.
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Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
All Muslims support Al Qaeda? Sorry doc, you're wrong about that. You really think all the Muslims in America support terrorism? You think everybody in Turkey supported 9/11? The Chinese in Xinjiang providence? Not all Muslims are alike. Not all Muslims support terrorism. It's really unfortunate that you think that. I really hope there arn't a lot of people who feel that way. I fear for Muslims in America.
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Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
somerled
May 12 2004, 02:09 PM
Minuet :
So how is
Quote:
 
Actually it is not Holocaust 2 he is advocating, it is Hiroshima 2.
in your own words any less unwaranted ? crazy ?
And I suspect that if the USA actually did as Doc advocated it would certainly result in global war (not just a few mad bombers here and there) on a scale any sane person dares not contemplate and a holocaust that would make what happened in europe look like a picnic.

You can't possibly be supportive of such an action - even if these people are islamic.

Now you want to nuke the Palestinians , and the Iraqis as well , so who's next on your hit list (apart from me ) ?




Twisting my words once again are we.

Is it any wonder that you have no credibility left on this boards.

I did not offer any opinion, I simply clarified what I thought Doctortobe was saying and threw out something for everyone to think about. It has sparked quite a bit of good discussion IMO.

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Now you want to nuke the Palestinians


Show me where I said this, liar! :realmad: :realmad: :realmad:
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
The Sisko
May 12 2004, 01:47 PM
All Muslims support Al Qaeda? Sorry doc, you're wrong about that. You really think all the Muslims in America support terrorism? You think everybody in Turkey supported 9/11? The Chinese in Xinjiang providence? Not all Muslims are alike. Not all Muslims support terrorism. It's really unfortunate that you think that. I really hope there arn't a lot of people who feel that way. I fear for Muslims in America.

If there are a few exceptions to the rule, they sure have been silent on the matter. Where are the protesters against Osama's actions. Why is it that when Osama attacks Middle Eastern targets, that Muslems shift the blame to Americans? Why is it that the beheading of Nick Berg has been almost completely surpressed in Islamic newspapers? I can give you dozens of examples of how the VAST MAJORITY of Muslems support Al Quida's actions. Can you give me examples of how they don't? If you can't, then I must assume that you are merely making your comments because they are PC and they make you feel good, not because they are true in the real world.
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Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
Most Muslims immigrants in America were all for the invasion of Iraq because they came to America to escape dictatorial Middle East regimes. I suspect that Muslims are lying low during these times to reduce attacks and paranoia against them. As it is, several have been detained and arrested on suspicion for supporting Al Qaeda because they sent money back home to families or supported Islamic charities. It's easy for you to call me PC and judge millions on the actions of a few. That's your perrogative. But it's much more difficult to look at the situation with logic and compassion rather than fear and anger.
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
Really, so the Muslems in America are the ones that speak for the Muslems of the world? I would think that Muslem Americans would be in a bit of a minority. Also, you are so right. I remember the numerous Muslem Americans that came out and spoke against 9/11. I also remember that there have been no Muslem clerics in America calling for more killings of soldiers in Iraq.

And really, you have to get it through your mind that I am not just judging the actions of a few, I am judging the mindset of almost all. And really, you must also understand that you have yet to tell me where my logic is flawed. And also, bear with me on this because I really consider this important, you have yet to show me how your logic is true.
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Vger_art
Member Avatar
To baldly go
Doctortobe, I'm sure there is nothing anybody here could say that would change your mind. That's why it's called blind hatred. Perhaps you care to explain to us the difference between your kind of thinking and that of the terrorists?
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ds9074
Member Avatar
Admiral
POINT 1. On 11 September 2001 the United States was attacked by a group of fanatics called al-Qaeda claiming to act in the name of Islam. It was NOT attacked by Islam.

POINT 2. You cannot hope to beat a religion the scale of Islam out of people. This is the second biggest religion worldwide. If you try and deny people their beliefs many will simply cling to them harder and/or be drawn to the more extreme groups.
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