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| Nick Berg - Rest in Peace | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 11 2004, 02:22 PM (994 Views) | |
| Admiralbill_gomec | May 12 2004, 10:25 AM Post #61 |
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UberAdmiral
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By the way, we've gone way off topic for this thread. My condolences to Nick Berg's family. |
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| Dwayne | May 12 2004, 12:17 PM Post #62 |
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Profanity deleted by Hoss
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From what I understand, voting in Australia is mandated by law. |
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| Admiralbill_gomec | May 12 2004, 01:24 PM Post #63 |
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UberAdmiral
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I just looked it up. Well, whaddaya know, Australia FORCES people to vote. Well that sure is democratic of them! Stuff about compulsory voting This from the link above (underlined comments are mine): One of the most well-known compulsory voting systems is in Australia. All Australian citizens over the age of 18 (except those of unsound mind or those convicted of serious crimes) must be registered to vote and show up at the poll on election day. Australians who do not vote are subject to fines although those who were ill or otherwise incapable of voting on election day can have their fines waved. Compulsory voting in Australia was adopted in the state of Queensland in 1915 and subsequently adopted nationwide in 1924. With Australia's compulsory voting system comes additional flexibility for the voter - elections are held on Saturdays, absent voters can vote in any state polling place, and voters in remote areas can vote before an election (at pre-poll voting centers) or via mail. Voter turnout of those registered to vote in Australia was as low as 47% prior to the 1924 compulsory voting law. In the decades since 1924, voter turnout has hovered around 94-96%. In 1924, Australian officials felt that compulsory voting would eliminate voter apathy... "Compulsory voting would cause in a short time...a wonderful improvement in the political knowledge of the people" (Jaensch, 20) However, compulsory voting now has its detractors... "Compulsory voting has not contributed to the serious political education of the electorate; it may have even discouraged it." (Jaensch, 20) In their Fact Sheet on Voting, the Australian Electoral Commission provides some arguments in favor and against compulsory voting. Arguments used in favor of compulsory voting: Voting is a civic duty comparable to other duties citizens perform (e.g. taxation, compulsory education, or jury duty). (This doesn't mean it should be compulsory.) Parliament reflects more accurately the "will of the electorate." (No, it doesn't. If the will is to "not vote" then the electorate is not being reflected) Governments must consider the total electorate in policy formulation and management. (Maybe this is in the Australian constitution) Candidates can concentrate their campaigning energies on issues rather than encouraging voters to attend the poll. (Candidates concentrate their energies on getting voters to vote for them, not to go vote.) The voter isn’t actually compelled to vote for anyone because voting is by secret ballot. (Do they have a "None of the above" option?) Arguments used against compulsory voting: It is undemocratic to force people to vote - an infringement of liberty. The "ignorant" and those with little interest in politics are forced to the polls. It may increase the number of "donkey votes" (bad votes that don't get counted). It may increase the number of informal votes (ballot papers which are not marked according to the rules for voting). It increases the number of safe, single-member electorates - political parties then concentrate on the more marginal electorates. (This works either way) Resources must be allocated to determine whether those who failed to vote have "valid and sufficient" reasons. (Not necessarily, unless they were to levy fines) |
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| somerled | May 13 2004, 01:49 AM Post #64 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Well - no one forces us (you wont go to goal, or be haulled up in front of a magistrate, or get a criminal record - if you choose not to vote - you just need to make sure you have attended a polling station and had your name ticked off, otherwize you can expect a fine in the mail a few weeks later from the electorial office payable to consolidated revenue in your state (about $150 I think unless you have a very good excuse for not "voting" - ie out of the area for the day, sick, working all day (9am - 6pm)). It works - and at least our democracy is a democracy. Most democracies have compulsory voting - look at those in the EU for instance. |
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| Admiralbill_gomec | May 13 2004, 07:05 AM Post #65 |
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UberAdmiral
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How does this make yours a democracy? If it were a Democracy, you wouldn't be voting for representatives. Expect a fine in the mail? No thanks! That's just short of communism. |
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| ANOVA | May 13 2004, 07:44 PM Post #66 |
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Vice Admiral
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Fine for not voting? Sort of a reverse poll tax. Too bad Australia had no agents of freedom to practice civil disobedience when that law was first enacted. To you really want someone deciding the fate of your nation out of legal necessity? I had the following coversation with a former coworker Them: "My family has always voted Democrat, their for the little people" Me: "But Clinton isn't for anyone but himself, heck he was basically blackmailed while govenor of Arkansas by the women he cheated with" Them: "Every politician cheats on their wives. ME: "Who was Reagans mistress, besides Clinton bowed to his mistresses demands and gave her a job the was going to go to a more qualified black women. So much for being for the li....." Them: "Oh I don't get into the politics of it" Me (redfaced) "then Don't vote" Imagine, if I had had a similar conversation, I could be arrested for inciting someone to break the law. ANOVA |
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| somerled | May 14 2004, 01:04 AM Post #67 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Questions : Why were the FBI investigating Berg ? Is there in truth in the reports that he had been responsible for a pipe-bombing ? CIA identifies Berg's killer , not to mention connections with 911 <= that makes him sound very unsavoury to me . Why did he risk himself by going to Iraq when the place is a war-zone despite repeated formal warnings since the place has been a very very dangerous place for westerners (even those in the company of heavily armed soldiers !) and even for Iraqis as well for over a year now ? |
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| somerled | May 14 2004, 01:10 AM Post #68 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Bill : I'll take my democracy over your "so called democracy" any-day - at least nearly everyone here casts their vote , even if the preferential system corrupts the outcome sometimes.What's so wrong with communism ? (Not that our economic system is communist - Howard and his mob of cronnies are far from communist !!) ![]() Anova : Voting here is an obligation, a right and a privilege - I don't think too many of my countrymen regard compulsory voting in the way you think ie . You only cop the fine if you forget , or don't have a good reason for not voting. All my children have looked forward to being able to enroll to vote at their 18th birthdays and have been keen to have their say - by voting in local , state and federal elections and referenda. It's a traditional right of passage from childhood to adulthood, and pretty important to them. A bit like jury-duty - which is also compulsory here (well showing up on the appointed day at the nominated court (magristrate's , lower or higher court) and meeting a mob of total strangers and being marked off on roll like school kids , can be pain in the arse when you get onto "the List" for a few years. (I've not been asked to do jury for about 15 years now - I've never once made it onto a jury). Just part of being a contributing citisen. In both cases I think we accepted the system adopted in the UK by tradition , as have all other (?) Commonwealth Nations. |
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| ANOVA | May 14 2004, 05:45 AM Post #69 |
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Vice Admiral
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rights and privelages are NOT compulsary. I have the right to free speech, I am not compelled to use it. I have the privelege to drive a car, the law does not compell me. Jury duty is not a right or a privelege. It is necessary to maintian my right to a trial by a jury of my peers. Being compelled to vote does not maintain democracy. Since the uninformed and uninterested go to the polls, your representaion lacks the will of the people. ANOVA |
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| somerled | May 14 2004, 06:30 AM Post #70 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Works here. |
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| Dwayne | May 14 2004, 06:33 AM Post #71 |
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Profanity deleted by Hoss
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Sick anti-American scum are now claiming the CIA killed Nick Berg. |
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| somerled | May 14 2004, 07:32 AM Post #72 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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'Beheading' website shut down <== for the best I think , not reasonable to allow people (of any age to be able view this out of some kind of goulish curiousity or for some kind of pecular fetish). |
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| Minuet | May 14 2004, 08:14 AM Post #73 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Somerled, only you would be insensitive enough to post allegations of wrongdoing against this man on his Rest in Peace thread. If he was helping the insurgents why would they murder him???? Just sounds like the anti-American press trying to justify this man's murder. |
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| Dwayne | May 15 2004, 03:46 AM Post #74 |
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Profanity deleted by Hoss
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It feels good to have a chance to agree with someone that is arguable on the left. |
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| somerled | May 15 2004, 10:14 AM Post #75 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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ANOVA:
So how is what passes for democracy in the USA better than we have here ? Minuet: That was what was reported here - seems he may not have been such a saint after all , and these things need to be aired - not swept under the carpet.
The source is AP. Do you really that ? Was he helping the insurgents ? - where does it say that ? Mind you the FBI wouldn't interview or detain someone if they didn't have reasonable cause - or would they ? Dwayne: Are they ? Who might that be ? The CIA has done some nasty things in the past - but ..... ? And get a grip. |
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I'll take my democracy over your "so called democracy" any-day - at least nearly everyone here casts their vote , even if the preferential system corrupts the outcome sometimes.
9:12 AM Jul 11