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| Secular Iraq and Rummies' Time line | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 10 2004, 07:05 PM (287 Views) | |
| ANOVA | May 10 2004, 07:05 PM Post #1 |
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Vice Admiral
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Been thinking and two things have struck me over the last week First, proponents of the war effort have on occasion pointed to the fact that Saddam Hussien was a secular dicatator and as such the road to a democratic state is started. Yet, since Saddam's downfall we find that he was using state funds to finance two extremely large mosques. Furthermore, it was illegal to preach christianity in Iraq. A preacher could face a six year prison sentence. This coupled with the fact that the one minority not represented in the provisional council is the christian bloch, and we see that a fundamental premise of the free and democratic state is missing. Religious freedom. The other thing that has been stincking in the front of my mind for a while is Rumsfeld's testimony. I didn't get to see all of it, so maybe one of you can enlighten me. Cencom made public, the accusations of abuse of prisoners months ago. "Sixty Minutes" was asked not to go public with the pictures only a few weeks ago. Who asked "Sixty Minutes" not to air the pictures. Whom ever thought that these pictures were toxic, should have adised Rumsfeld of the political danger. This first cancelled airing would have been the perfect time to tell both the president and congress of the problem. This piece doesn't fit well to me. Too hot to be aired not hot enough to advise the executive in chief. Who made that choice? ANOVA spreading hate and discontent since 6:45 pm central time |
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| Sgt. Jaggs | May 10 2004, 07:13 PM Post #2 |
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How about a Voyager Movie
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I thought someone said it was General Meyers that asked for the delay. Your religious freedom remark does not make sense, you just said Christianity was not allowed to be propogated. I know you must not be coming through clear to me. Sorry. Keep spreading the hate and discontent though, you are amusing! |
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| ANOVA | May 11 2004, 05:31 AM Post #3 |
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Vice Admiral
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^^^ My point is that religious freedom was of paramount concern when the founders of the US constitution was being penned. Not true with the Iraqi governing council, who as far as I can tell has no christian representation. The laws under Sadam make his regime no more secular than the Caliphates of old. I doubt a democratic state will thrive under such situations. ANOVA |
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| ds9074 | May 11 2004, 07:05 AM Post #4 |
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Admiral
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We've done OK here with a religious AND democratic state, but I think that may be the exception. One of the biggest problems I can see is that the people of Iraq may elect an Islamic party which will then take Iraq in that direction. I also want to know what happens if the Government that is elected had made a commitment to getting coaliton troops out of Iraq. If the new Iraqi Government asks us to leave do we go? I think the handing over of Soveriegty is going to be a little false, at least to start with. A soveriegn nation would have veto over all military operations within its borders. Is the new authority after June going to have veto over US operations? |
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| Dr. Noah | May 11 2004, 12:02 PM Post #5 |
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Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
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Unfortunately, the concept of a theocracy in Iraq is a very attractive prospect for much of the population, especially the Shiites who suffered oppression under Hussein. The majority of Iraq are very religious despite the former regime was non-secular. This kind of reminds me of the Iranian Shah we supported that was torn down by the population and replaced with Ayatollah Kommeini (probably misspelled) The worst thing that can happen is the country being split by ethnic/religious divisions and erupting into civil war. It is a possibility. Sunni vs. Shiite vs. Kurd, they all have a lot of reasons not to trust each other, especially if one faction gains the majority of power in Iraq. Again, this is not a good situation, and there's no solid plan yet. |
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| Admiralbill_gomec | May 12 2004, 10:30 AM Post #6 |
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UberAdmiral
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Yup, just like Iran all over again. Usually a theocracy rises out of ignorance, but not this time. This time it would be deliberate. This is why it must not be allowed to happen. |
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| ds9074 | May 12 2004, 10:41 AM Post #7 |
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Admiral
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So Iraqis will have democracy and freedom to choose their Government provided they make the right choice of Government? Sounds like the kind of Democracy that prefixes (or did do) the names of communist state. The Democratic Peoples Republic of X allows all its citizens to vote, provided they vote Communist! The Democratic Republic of Iraq allows all its people to vote, provided they dont vote for Islamic Clergy. |
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| Dr. Noah | May 12 2004, 11:26 AM Post #8 |
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Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
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Well, I suppose they can have whatever democracy they want, as long as it meets with our approval.
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| Dandandat | May 12 2004, 11:46 AM Post #9 |
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Time to put something here
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Why spend all this time and effort and lives, to turn around and let it happen all again? |
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| Dr. Noah | May 12 2004, 11:48 AM Post #10 |
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Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
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Your point is well taken but it's not really a democracy if it's not the people's choice is it? A government that a foreign power puts together is called a puppet regime. |
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| ds9074 | May 12 2004, 11:53 AM Post #11 |
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Admiral
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Exactly. I am not trying to make a point one way or another. I am saying it is a difficult problem. We want Iraq to have a permanent democracy and yet we also want Iraq to have a true democracy. We may have to trust the Iraqi people. |
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| doctortobe | May 12 2004, 12:04 PM Post #12 |
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Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
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Just in case others don't see the reply I made to you in the "outrage over Nick Berg" thread, we didn't exactly allow Germany and Japan to choose their own governments either and they turned out just fine. In fact, it is the nations that WERE allowed to set up their own government that were most likely to go to pot. |
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| Admiralbill_gomec | May 12 2004, 01:27 PM Post #13 |
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UberAdmiral
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So, you'd prefer another Iran? Look DS, we didn't let the Germans select National Socialism, or the Japanese select a military government. Their people are now free. What is wrong with this? A theocracy is just WRONG. |
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| Dr. Noah | May 12 2004, 01:33 PM Post #14 |
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Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
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But Iran had a US approved government to begin with, and the people tore it down and created a theocracy, probably out of spite for US intervention. Don't you see a parallel here? |
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| Admiralbill_gomec | May 12 2004, 01:44 PM Post #15 |
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UberAdmiral
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Iran had been crumbling for years, mostly because the Shah had gone off the reservation and done things like creating the Savak (secret police who made the NKVD or Gestapo look like cub scouts). There are few parallels. The Shah deported the Ayatollah to Paris and he came back after the Shah left. The Iranian imams were actually surprised that they assumed power so easily. This action was fomented by university students sick of the Shah. Oddly, many of them fled to Canada and the US within 2 years after the theocratic takeover. I also think we learn from our mistakes. |
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9:12 AM Jul 11