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Iraq Prison Torture
Topic Started: Apr 30 2004, 10:02 AM (1,643 Views)
ImpulseEngine
Admiral
Dwayne
May 7 2004, 01:31 AM
The thing lost on America haters world wide is the fact that the media did not break this story, then forced the military to respond, but the military had been investigating these alligation since November of 2003.

Actually the mistreatment occurred in November and December 2003 and it's been under investigation since January 2004. (Just a minor technicality.)

Also, I agree with you. I've been avoiding the term "torture" because I haven't seen anything that I find to clearly fall under that term. I see possible torture, but what can you tell from still pictures? :shrug: I don't know where the torture allegation comes from exactly.
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ds9074
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Admiral
The torture allegation comes from the accounts of some of the people, accounts which appear to be backed up by the photos.
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
DS,
Which people are saying this and what are they saying? Do you have any links by any chance? I haven't heard anything yet that sounds like torture to me. Abuse yes, torture no. So any info you have would be appreciated.
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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
I don't get it wichita ... I didn't post a picture, but provided a link. And why wasn't the first link removed if both pictures illustrate torture?
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Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
I read in the paper the other day that some university did a psychology study about prisons and found that the people playing the guards perfromed similar atrocities against the students playing the prisoners. The students playing prisoners ended up having an emotional breakdown due to similar sexual humiliation and abuse. I'm not saying what was done was okay, but when you are living somewhere where people are trying to kill you everyday, you tend to get a little rattled. As Yoda says, fear leads to anger anger leads to hatred and hatred leads to suffering. My grandfather was totally racist toward Japanese people, but I never confronted him, partly out of respect for my elders, but also because I don't know what it's like to have to live through people trying to kill you for months or even years on end.
Since the students in this study resorted to similar sexual domination without having their lives in danger, it's not a big surprise something like this could happen without the proper discipline and monitoring.
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Dwayne
May 7 2004, 07:17 PM
I don't get it wichita ... I didn't post a picture, but provided a link. And why wasn't the first link removed if both pictures illustrate torture?

Dwayne, I'm going to send you a PM on this. There's always the possibility of mistake and if I have made one, I will be glad to restore the link and apologize.
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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
Wichita
May 7 2004, 05:59 PM
Dwayne
May 7 2004, 07:17 PM
I don't get it wichita ... I didn't post a picture, but provided a link. And why wasn't the first link removed if both pictures illustrate torture?

Dwayne, I'm going to send you a PM on this. There's always the possibility of mistake and if I have made one, I will be glad to restore the link and apologize.

I replied to your PM.
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
I've been doing some personal research on the matter. The more I get into this, the more it seems that Military Intelligence was behind this. The reasoning behind this is mostly common sense.

First off, why would soldiers, some of whom were going through college, be stupid enough to take pictures of themselves in the act of something that could be taken as a war crime? If there is one thing that any soldier from private to general is good at, it is covering their @$$ in as many ways as possible.

It is also strange that there was only ONE person (I believe) that was trying to report this up the chain of command. While there would be some pressure to keep quiet, I would think that there would be others who would think that it was wrong.

Finally, a GENERAL was effectively banned from certain areas of the camp she COMMANDED. This is not something that the guards could do obviously. It would take somebody with a whole lot of weight to throw around, both in seniority and politically, to tell a Brigadier General what to do.

I'm almost certain that the Military Police command wouldn't be behind this. It isn't their job to interrogate prisoners and they certainly don't have any kind of secrecy to keep this from getting out. However, Military Intellgence has both of these aspects. The more I think about it, the more I think that these MPs were put up to this. Whether or not they are in the wrong for going along with it will depend on what kind of pressure was put on them.
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Sgt. Jaggs
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How about a Voyager Movie
Sounds like what Savage said about it being an intentional lea to stir the pot.
I gather that military and political goals are often varied.
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
Not really that, it is because the goals of certain military branches are different and sometimes come into conflict. For instance, if the Field Artillary were to devote all their cannons to firing on targets that the Infantry calls in, the Infantry's job would be much easier. Why assault a bunker when you can call in some high angle hell?

However, the larger guns of Field Artillary divisions will almost never be used for Infantry support. Why? Because enemy radar is able to track the trajectory of their shells and pinpoint their location for counterattack. Therefore, the Field Artillary will almost never give Infantry platoons access to the heavy stuff. Instead, you MIGHT get access to some morters.

Let's say there are two armor divisions, one is activated while the other is still in reserve. Some of the vehicles in the activated unit are not fit for combat as they are still waiting for certain parts to come in for maintenance and overhauls. Before a night has passed, those vehicles will be ready for combat. The parts will have mysteriously disappeared from the reserve unit.

What I am saying is that the Army will work as a team, but they will usually put their loyalties to their own company/platoon/squad. As such, if the Military Intelligence has been up to something fishy. It wouldn't surprise me that the Military Police could have gotten set up for this.

I think that this might be a case of some MI higher ups getting a little too zealous in accomplishing their mission. The soldiers were used because they were the most convenient to get ahold of and also because they could shift the blame from MI.
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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
So Wichita, can I repost the links that show the difference between those humiliating photos of Iraqi's and the photos what was actually torturous?

Better yet, can I post the photos themselves?
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Swidden
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Adm. Gadfly-at-large; Provisional wRench-fly at large
^^^
Dwayne, I think that given the nature of the photos in question and the potential nature of photos that depict worse torture results it would not be appropriate to post the actual photos here. Links? If it is permitted, some kind of a disclaimer or warning would be appropriate.

I agree that as far as torture goes, what we have seen so far is rather mild physically. Psychologically, though, these are pretty bad. Particularly when you couple this with the idea that we came in with the intended perception to be that we are better than what was there before.

I guess what has pushed my buttons on this issue, particularly when some try to use the idea that this was part of a process to wear down resistance and achieve cooperation in interrogation, is the fact of the presence of our soldiers in the pictures. The implication that, from their smiles and other conduct, that they are enjoying carrying out these actions.

We are not supposed to delight in the suffering of others. How is the delight that these soldiers present any different from images of people dancing in the streets in parts of the Middle East following the WTC bombing? If we want the world to believe we are better than that then we have to walk the walk to match our claims!

On the personal side: Over the past couple of days I have watched a copy of Kenneth Branagh's "Henry V". There are a couple of scenes in that play/movie that apply here. I don't have the precise text in front of me so I will paraphrase as best I can.

Following the part where King Henry has his old friend Bardolph hanged for steraling from a church, he tells his soldiers to treat the French better. He says: "For when lenity and cruelty play for a kingdom, the gentler gamester is the soonest winner."

Then there is the camp fire scene (played out in an episode of TNG, with the Romulan defector, by Data). The disguised King shares a conversation with some of his soldiers. They claim, at first, that their obedience to the king washes any crime for any of their own criminal actions. The king reminds them that no army has ever put to the field with "all unspotted men".
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Dwayne
May 8 2004, 06:33 PM
So Wichita, can I repost the links that show the difference between those humiliating photos of Iraqi's and the photos what was actually torturous?

Better yet, can I post the photos themselves?

Post the links. I gave it a lot of consideration because I do understand your point, but don't feel comfortable because of some of the reasons that Swidden posted.
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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
Ok, here it is.

This is humiliating - this is torture.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
So Dwayne , psychological torture is quite OK ?

Why are you trying to down play the seriousness of these autrocities ?

As to woman in the first photo - I don't know how she could show her face in public after what she's been up to. Maybe she is too stupid to appreciate what the world thinks of her - and it's not complimentary.

I repeat - Rumsfeld and Bush Jr have known about this for several months but have sat on it (hoping it would not see the light of day - at least until after the election - I would guess) - they are ultimately accountable and must be indited and prosecuted over these war crimes.
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