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Iraq Prison Torture
Topic Started: Apr 30 2004, 10:02 AM (1,645 Views)
Swidden
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Adm. Gadfly-at-large; Provisional wRench-fly at large
Ngagh, I respectfully disagree with your recommendation for neutral regulators in the Iraqi POW camps. Compliance with Geneva Conventions, yes. The harshest of punishments available under UCMJ to the offending soldiers, absolutley! Make it loud a clear to all soldiers that this will not be tolerated, but somewhere, someday, some army will do something like this again- or worse. It's a given...

The US Supreme Court is taking testimony regarding the Guantanomo/A-Qaeda prisoners (2 cases involving US citizens and 2 cases of non-citizens), I suspect that clarification will be coming very soon.
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ANOVA
Vice Admiral
IE

Quote:
 
Saddam is also a prisoner of war and should never be charged or tried...


Yes Saddam is a POW, yes he can be charged and tried for War Crimes. Legal and Historical precedence exsists due to the Nuremburg trials. There is no duplicity in holding someone as a POW and accusing them of crimes against humanity.

There is no ambiguity in detaining an enemy combatant without charging them as in Gitmo.

These facts don't exsist as part of American civil or criminal law. They exist as part of international law.

The US government must be harsh on the law breakers in the present situation or we could find a internationalist, liberal president handing over US troops to the Hague.

ANOVA

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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
ANOVA
May 1 2004, 06:49 PM
Yes Saddam is a POW, yes he can be charged and tried for War Crimes. Legal and Historical precedence exsists due to the Nuremburg trials. There is no duplicity in holding someone as a POW and accusing them of crimes against humanity.

I agree both that he is a POW and that he should be charged and tried (see my reply to Somerled's post above). It is because he has broken international law.

I raised the point though because it contradicts the idea that the prisoners in Guantanamo shouldn't be charged or tried because they are just POW's. They are held there presumably because they are or have ties to terrorists and are therefore supposedly just as guilty of breaking international law.

I also agree that people guilty of mistreating prisoners in Iraq need to be dealt with harshly.
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Intrepid2002
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UNGH!
I happen to come across this article. Torture at Abu Ghraib

I just want to warn you it's a little graphic. Thought you all might find it an interesting read.
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fireh8er
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I'm Captain Kirk!
Thanks Intrepid! Just read the article and it's was truly shocking! Those individuals are a disgrace to their uniforms and our country. Have no fear, I believe they will severely punished for their actions! The bad thing is that it gives the United States a black eye.
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gvok
Unregistered

I heard that Rush defended the humiliation as "softening the prisoners up" for interrogation. Any truth to this?
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ANOVA
Vice Admiral
I heard some of a Rush program. The gist of it was.

He heard the term "pictures of torture" wasn't sure if he wanted to see them.
When he did see them he thought that it was more humiliation then torture. Compared what he saw to college hazings. Stated that he wasn't trying to justify what he saw in the pictures, just that it didn't rise to the standard of his definition of torture.

He also said that there were some questions of autenticity that needed to be adressed.

ANOVA
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Swidden
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Adm. Gadfly-at-large; Provisional wRench-fly at large
While the level of this indignity may not seem as severe as the tortures conceived by the Hussein Regime, what makes this so bad, and something for us Americans to be ashamed of, is the fact that our people should have known better.
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ANOVA
Vice Admiral
^^^

Agreed.

ANOVA
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
Swidden
May 5 2004, 04:08 PM
While the level of this indignity may not seem as severe as the tortures conceived by the Hussein Regime, what makes this so bad, and something for us Americans to be ashamed of, is the fact that our people should have known better.

Here's one difference. We, as Americans, actually feel shame for these incidents. I seem to remember just a few weeks ago when Iraqis were jumping up and down with joy after killing, burning, mutiliating, and displaying dead Americans.

WHERE WAS THE OUTRAGE?

One thing I do understand is that the humiliation toward the Iraqis was part of something called "psychological warfare." This is to get prisoners to confess without resorting to physical or chemical means. A popular method is sleep deprivation, and another is cultural disgust.

I'm sorry that Americans had to resort to this, but does anyone think this will scar them for life? Hell, hazing at our fine military academies was far worse than this (even in my day).

Here's another point... where were these same outraged people when Saddam Hussein was feeding people into plastic shredders (either headfirst or feetfirst), cutting their heads off, pushing them off of five story buildings, feeding them to lions in his zoo, or hanging them up and spraying acid at them?
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ANOVA
Vice Admiral
Skipper,

I understand interogation methods. We were trained on them in the Mairines. we were also trained on the laws of warfare.

Some of thses pictures show a sadistic enjoyment, not a professional attempt to break the prisoners will.

A simple culture busterwould be to feed the prisoners an anamed meat and ask them how they like pork (of course the meat isint pork)

Accuse the family or clan of having jewish ties.

good cop/bad cop combined with sleep deprivation does wonders on a persons.

The invisible torture. The bloody implements are left out as a lifeless form is dragged past the prisoner. (the blood is not real and the lifeless form is one of your own acting.

The death injection. The prisoner is given a strong (but slow acting) sedative and told that it is a leathal drug. The real effects of the drug a described in detail with the phrase "and death soon follows" tacked on the end. As the prisoner feels the effects of the drug they are shown the "antidote" and told that if they talk, they will be cured. If they fail to disclose any information. They are allowed to go to sleep taken to a cell after they succumb. Any reference about the incident by the prisoner is met with confused looks. obviously the prisoner is going nuts.

My point is, this could have been done in ways that did not portray our troops as sadistic. When, Skipper, when did you ever here of a professional interogator posing for his/her work and smiling. Simply making the men shower in front of and take orders from women should have been enough of a cultural shock.

ANOVA
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Swidden
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Adm. Gadfly-at-large; Provisional wRench-fly at large
Admiral,

Anova nails it pretty well. I can also tell from your replies on this you are clearly not taking any delight in this incident. As far as the outrage over the crimes committed by the Hussein Regime, well some of us had it all along.

In regard to any lingering effects on the Iraqis in the photos, I expect that any physical scars will heal. One interview I saw with a man who claimed to be one of the hooded prisoners (on CBS Evening News last night) pointed out how he was among those who were happy to see Saddam go, still is grateful to the Americans for liberating Iraq, but according to his beliefs he would have preferred to have been executed.

You're right about the difference in our response to this occurrence versus the response of Iraqis in places like Fallujah and Najaf to the murder of American civilians. We don't hate them the way they hate us.

It may not seem like it to some, but it looks like we crossed a line in this. Frankly, of all the things that have happened throughout this conflict this is one that has really gotten my hackles up.
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Vger_art
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To baldly go
Admiralbill_gomec
May 5 2004, 06:21 PM
Here's one difference. We, as Americans, actually feel shame for these incidents. I seem to remember just a few weeks ago when Iraqis were jumping up and down with joy after killing, burning, mutiliating, and displaying dead Americans.

WHERE WAS THE OUTRAGE?

On the iraqi side you mean? Don't know for sure but I'm not an american and I am sure you didn't catch any of my outrage either. Yet after Fallujah I immediately vented my anger and disgust (on the Internet a.o.) and there was plenty of outrage where I live. Maybe some things don't make it into the media? Heck, maybe most iraqi's didn't even know, there is no free press overthere.

Admiralbill_gomec
May 5 2004, 06:21 PM

One thing I do understand is that the humiliation toward the Iraqis was part of something called "psychological warfare." This is to get prisoners to confess without resorting to physical or chemical means. A popular method is sleep deprivation, and another is cultural disgust.

I'm sorry that Americans had to resort to this, but does anyone think this will scar them for life? Hell, hazing at our fine military academies was far worse than this (even in my day).

Admiral, all of this you mention is in violation of the Geneva Conventions.
Obviously you looked at the pictures but have you read the article as well?

Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; punched a detainee in the chest so hard that the detainee almost went into cardiac arrest; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick; using military working dogs to ... and in one instance actually biting a detainee;

The outrage isn't about just the humiliation. You are not doing the reputation of the U.S. Military any favors by trying to downplay this or deny the facts.
I would be more concerned with their statements they were encouraged and even ordered to do this.

The body of one iraqi prisoner who didn't survive his treatment had to be smuggled out, his imprisonment was kept out of the records. Strange as it may sound, I think that's actually a good sign. It means there were enough officers left for which they had to hide their behaviour. Then again, the medics played along just like that and they got away with it for at least 6 months. I hope they get to the bottom of this. I heard on the news today they are now investigating 25 cases of iraqi prisoners turning up dead, in 2 cases murder was proven.

Admiralbill_gomec
May 5 2004, 06:21 PM
Here's another point... where were these same outraged people when Saddam Hussein was feeding people into plastic shredders (either headfirst or feetfirst), cutting their heads off, pushing them off of five story buildings, feeding them to lions in his zoo, or hanging them up and spraying acid at them?
Well, I don't know where the others were after the first gulf war but according to U.S. officials between 30,000 and 60,000 protesters were killed, bombed and shelled by the iraqi airforce using military helicopters.
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
Saddam Hussein killed over THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND Iraqis during his era of terror.

That was my question regarding outrage. Where is the rest of the world condemning THOSE atrocities?

Actually, interrogation is NOT against the Geneva Conventions. I have read them, and in fact I was instructed on them.

I am not trying to downplay ANYTHING. I have said before that the accused should be tried under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and if found guilty, sentenced to the maximum.

I don't think you are reading the entire thread before accusing me.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
However torture is ?

And what does it say about the culture of the USA's occupying forces when people think this kind of behaviour is OK , and even take happy snaps of themselves in the process ?

What little credibility the USA had in world has evaporated as a result (why else do you think Bush Jr has been compelled to appologise to the world ?).
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