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Iraq Prison Torture
Topic Started: Apr 30 2004, 10:02 AM (1,646 Views)
Swidden
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Adm. Gadfly-at-large; Provisional wRench-fly at large
Anova,

I think there remains some ambiguity about the precise definition of the prisoners in Guantanamo. This is probably intentional, but I do believe that they are best considered P.O.W.'s. This may mean they get to go home when the war on terror is over...
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
I don't agree that they are prisoners of war. If that was true then Saddam is also a prisoner of war and should never be charged or tried... Terrorists are criminals and SHOULD be charged and tried - as Saddam should be.

That said, I haven't heard an actual classification given for the prisoners in Guantanamo so I don't know how they actually ARE being classified.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Sounds very much to me like the wars in both Iraq and Afganistan are not finished by a long shot from what I have seen and read in the news.

Therefore the prisoners are until all hostilities and miltiary actions cease, and peace prevails everywhere in these countries are POWs (that includes the people held illegally in Guantanamo , and even Saddam , despite what Bush Jr and Rumsfeld say).
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captain_proton_au
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A Robot in Disguise

Just saw this on the news. WTF??

What a bunch of low lifes, this will do a great deal of damage to the US reputation.

One of the main reasons for going into Iraq after WMD's was that Saddam suppressed and tortured some of his citizens. Now the world sees this stuff???

A few idiots, no , idiots is not a strong enough word a few @@@@@ have unravelled a lot of good work done by the majority.

If I was a family member of one of the fallen in Iraq, I'd be mighty PO'ed now!!

Oh , great , and as Im writing this there was a news update on British Soldiers humiliating an Iraqi prisoner, although the pictures didnt really give much away.
What is going on??
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
CPA a family member of one of the soldiers being charged described the mess as "youthful pranks". :rolleyes:
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captain_proton_au
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A Robot in Disguise

Wichita
May 1 2004, 05:46 AM
CPA a family member of one of the soldiers being charged described the mess as "youthful pranks". :rolleyes:

So its a matter of questionable parentage then. :sick:
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Intrepid2002
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UNGH!
Quoting from the Guardian article:

"The scandal has also brought to light the growing and largely unregulated role of private contractors in the interrogation of detainees."

Were any of the six "soldiers" being charged privately contracted to work in Iraq? If so, by whom?

Can anyone clarify this for me?
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
From what I have read, they are all members of a military police reserve/guard unit from western Maryland. (I may have the state wrong.)

I don't understand the relationship the contractors have to the running of the prison.
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ds9074
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Admiral
It gets worse :no: Now it looks like British troops may also have been mistreating Iraq citizens. We really have made a mess of this whole business. How could so much planning go into the military campaign and that be so successful, yet so little planning take place about the aftermath and such a poor job be made?

As for those in Guantanamo, either charge them with crimes and bring them before a court of law, grant them the rights of Prisoners of War under the Geneva conventions or let them go free. STOP holding them unlawfully.
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ANOVA
Vice Admiral
Quote:
 
As for those in Guantanamo, either charge them with crimes and bring them before a court of law, grant them the rights of Prisoners of War under the Geneva conventions or let them go free. STOP holding them unlawfully.


They are being held in accordance with the Geneva convention. This has been true since thier detention began. Hence, there is nothing unlawful about their capture.

Cheney stated as much months ago. The media has been slow to accept this fact.


If the US were to few this as a possible 'war crimes" situation, and televise the hearings so that Iraqis understand that the "might makes right" mentallity does not hold in our country, it would go a long way to repairing the damage these people did. War crime would also allow contractors to be tried, since one does not need to be a memeber of the military to be charged.

THe base/facility commander needs to be charged, yet as I hear it, the Army is considering a letter of repremand. Limp wristed half measures will not salve the situation.

Quote:
 
CPA a family member of one of the soldiers being charged described the mess as "youthful pranks".


That "youthful prank" has given aid and comfort to the enemy cuase, and endangered the safety of captured Americans. Nice of the family to rationalize criminal activity. Hope they can rationalize the increased terrorist recruiting that will result from it all.



ANOVA
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
somerled
May 1 2004, 03:34 AM
Therefore the prisoners are until all hostilities and miltiary actions cease, and peace prevails everywhere in these countries are POWs (that includes the people held illegally in Guantanamo , and even Saddam , despite what Bush Jr and Rumsfeld say).

You realize the war on terrorism will never be over...

Does anyone else believe Saddam is a POW? Actually, in most ways that makes sense since there was at least a war in the usual sense of the word in Iraq. However, then why the talk of a trial? It's because he is also considered an international criminal for violating international laws (not to mention how the Iraqi citizens would classify him). And the same is true of the prisoners in Guantanamo - they are both POW's AND criminals (assuming they are guilty).
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ImpulseEngine
Admiral
ANOVA
May 1 2004, 08:26 AM
THe base/facility commander needs to be charged, yet as I hear it, the Army is considering a letter of repremand.

I heard this also. :realmad:
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Swidden
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Adm. Gadfly-at-large; Provisional wRench-fly at large
The sad fact of the matter is that regardless of their country of origin, and this in no way excuses the conduct, this is not that unusual that these incidents still occur. It's probably been a part of war since the first competing tribes decided to fight over a mammoth heard millenia ago. How we ever put a complete end to it is anybody's guess, but a start would be to hold these "soldiers" accountable in the severest way possible.

On the point of one of the soldiers family member's using any terminology similar to "youthful prank", I wonder what they would say if the positions were reveresed and it were their son/daughter on screen as a victim? I dare say we'd hear some truly self-righteous indignation then...
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
somerled
May 1 2004, 01:34 AM
Sounds very much to me like the wars in both Iraq and Afganistan are not finished by a long shot from what I have seen and read in the news.

Therefore the prisoners are until all hostilities and miltiary actions cease, and peace prevails everywhere in these countries are POWs (that includes the people held illegally in Guantanamo , and even Saddam , despite what Bush Jr and Rumsfeld say).

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

The "wars" are long over. This is the restructuring and reorganization.

People are NOT being held illegally. They are being held IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS. When will you figure that out?

As for mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners, there is no excuse for this. If it has been proven that prisoners were actually tortured (not just humiliated as viewed by their culture), then any MILITARY personnel should be court martialed under an Article 93 (Cruelty and Maltreatment: Any person subject to this chapter who is guilty of cruelty toward, or oppression or maltreatment of, any person subject to his orders shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.) This is usually used for superiors mistreating subordinates, but could be stretched. If it is a civilian problem, both they and military personnel can be charged under the provisions of the Geneva Convention of 1949 (probably Chapter I, Article 3).
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Ngagh
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Huh?
This act just blows any creditbility that the Coalition had in Iraq. Remember when the US was pissed off when the former Iraqi government showed off its American prisoners on T.V.? That was bad, that was gloating. This is just wrong. Iraq needs neutral regulators in all its POW camps, so crap like this never happens again.

Just to clarify, the prisoners held in Cuba, and illegal combatants, the reason they aren't POW's are because they were not party of a recognised army, or something like that.
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