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UN still irrellevant?; Bush asks for irrellevant assistance
Topic Started: Apr 19 2004, 01:43 PM (968 Views)
Intrepid2002
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UNGH!
24thcenstfan
Apr 19 2004, 06:31 PM


Seems you're mistaken dan.   :whistle:

The Sisko, the source you are quoting was taken from statements Ari Fleischer made in his October 3, 2002 press briefing...not a direct Bush quote.


[/QUOTE]
Very true!

But still, he is/was the president's official spokesperson. Right?
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Intrepid2002
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UNGH!
Dandandat
Apr 21 2004, 09:43 AM
Quote:
 
Come on folks, does the man literally have to say, “THE UN IS IRRELEVANT?. What does it mean when you stick your middle finger up to a world body like the UN? What is he trying to say?


If you are going to stand there and accuse some one of flip-flopping then yes. There is a big difference between "I believe the UN IS irrelevant” and “I believe the UN MAY become irrelevant”. We aren’t asking for the definition of is, we are pointing out that there is a difference between IS and MAY in the English language. The two worlds are used to convey two different ideas.

If Bush said that the UN IS irrelevant then the Sisko would be right in saying Bush is contradicting himself

If Bush said that the UN MAY become irrelevant, his recent actions can be seen in two ways, one) Bush’s fears did not come to pass (that is acceptable) and the UN escaped the clutches of irrelevance. Or Two) Bush still fears the idea and in an attempted to make sure the UN doesn’t become irrelevant is trying to involve them. Lets not for get, he tried to involve them before the war.

:banghead:

We've moved up in the world. Now we're debating the meaning of 2 words, IS and MAY ;)

What can I say, sometimes actions speak louder than words. No matter how much time we waste bandying about the meaning of the word IS or MAY, as far as I'm concerned, the president was making his stance. I respect that. What I can't stand is hiding behind the word MAY. If the man thinks the UN is irrelevant then D@MN IT, he should say it outright to remove any doubt in anyone's mind so we can get past these debates on grammar. :whistle:

Then he should go on with his business and not look back. That's the path he set for himself and as the president, for this country. I may not LIKE the politics of this man but I am an American first. I'm trying my hardest to immerse myself in his politics, I'm trying hard to listen but I what I hear is awfully frightening.

Is it still "d@mned if you do, d@mned if you don't, d@mned if you question" around here?

Until the next time, PEACE. :kiss: :rotfl: :beam:
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
President Bush wasn't making a stance. He was asking a question. How can you state a position when you are asking a question?
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24thcenstfan
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
Quote:
 
Intrepid2002
Apr 22 2004, 09:01 AM
24thcenstfan
Apr 19 2004, 06:31 PM


Seems you're mistaken dan.   :whistle:

The Sisko, the source you are quoting was taken from statements Ari Fleischer made in his October 3, 2002 press briefing...not a direct Bush quote.



Very true!

But still, he is/was the president's official spokesperson. Right?

Yes he is. :yes: But the point I was making was The Sisko didn’t take the time to clarify and properly connect the dots between a White House correspondent’s account of what Bush said, and what Bush may have actually said, before he posted this thread.

By going straight to the source (www.whitehouse.gov), it took me 15 minutes to locate the speech to the UN GA and the Press Briefing from October 3, 2002 (it would have only taken me 10 minutes, but The Sisko stated the wrong month for the speech so I had to quickly go through the surrounding months). After all, The Sisko was quoting a White House correspondent. They primarily get their information from the Press Secretary and the President. Since the source The Sisko provided did not include a direct quote from Bush (from a speech/presidential news conference), the correspondent most likely heard it somewhere else (from the Press Secretary). So, The Sisko should have done a quick search to see what the President actually said that day, and then moved on to the Press Briefings from Oct. 3, 2002 (the same date of the source he cited).

If The Sisko had done all of this himself, it would have given a lot more credence to his post. By not doing so, and posting a second-hand (third-hand) account of what Bush said, he spent half his time defending the semantics of his issue, instead of the issue itself.

But yes Intrepid, you are absolutely right when you say the Press Secretary is the official spokesperson (which is a direct link to the Presidents views, opinions, etc.). However, The Sisko didn't even know (or at least reveal to us) that the comments were made by Fleischer (a credible source...but a distinction none the less).
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Intrepid2002
Apr 22 2004, 09:25 AM
We've moved up in the world.  Now we're debating the meaning of 2 words, IS and MAY  ;)

What can I say, sometimes actions speak louder than words.  No matter how much time we waste bandying about the meaning of the word IS or MAY,  as far as I'm concerned, the president was making his stance.  I respect that.  What I can't stand is hiding behind the word MAY.  If the man thinks the UN is irrelevant then D@MN IT, he should say it outright to remove any doubt in anyone's mind so we can get past these debates on grammar.  :whistle:

Then he should go on with his business and not look back.  That's the path he set for himself and as the president, for this country.  I may not LIKE the politics of this man but I am an American first.  I'm trying my hardest to immerse myself in his politics,  I'm trying hard to listen but I what I hear is awfully frightening.

Is it still "d@mned if you do, d@mned if you don't, d@mned if you question" around here?

Until the next time, PEACE.  :kiss:    :rotfl:  :beam:

I think you have missed the point the. I am not debating the words is and may as they already have a meaning that is set in stone. I am saying you can not ever be right because you want the word may to invoke the same meaning as the word is, which can not be done. The president is not hiding behind any word, all he is doing is say that you are wrong for twisting his words.


Quote:
 
Until the next time, PEACE.   :kiss:    :rotfl:  :beam:
Oh you want to fight hu? well then lets fight, I can kick you ass any day. - Oh by the way just incase you aren’t aware, today I have changed the meaning of the word peace to mean fight. and so you are clearly picking a fight with me when you say this. :kiss:

------------------------editted
May- Used to indicate a certain measure of likelihood or possibility

Is- To exist in actuality

No matter how you slice it

The "UN is irrelevant" and the "UN may become irrelevant" mean two different things.


Further let assume that is can be interchangeable with the word may with out changing the meaning of the idea. And so lest assume the president does think the UN may irrelevant. What is wrong with him asking for their help? As it can be also seen that in doing so he is trying to rebuild its relevance.
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Intrepid2002
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UNGH!
:shrug:

Pardon me but I have to read your posts twice, thrice.

"I am saying you can not ever be right because you want the word may to invoke the same meaning as the word is, which can not be done"

No sir, I'm past the meaning of the word "is" and "may". I'm saying his actions speak louder than his words, and that's my opinion. I'm saying why leave room for doubt? If he feels the UN is irrelevant, then he should say it, none of this "may be irrelevant" crap. Again, that is my opinion. Contrary to what you might think, I DO get your point. It's MY point YOU are not getting.

"The president is not hiding behind any word, all he is doing is say that you are wrong for twisting his words."


Please convey to the president my apologies. When you speak to him again, please tell him I didn't mean to twist his words. It would be nice if the actions matched the words but maybe that's too much to ask.

"Oh you want to fight hu? well then lets fight, I can kick you ass any day. - Oh by the way just incase you aren’t aware, today I have changed the meaning of the word peace to mean fight. and so you are clearly picking a fight with me when you say this. :kiss:"

Where's all this hostility coming from? :P You see, this is where I get confused. Is there a language barrier between Republicans and Democrats or is it just my imagination? No where did I mention fight, and sorry I wasn't aware the word Peace meant fight. *sigh* Hey, try and kick my ass anytime. They taught me how to watch my ass in the military. They couldn't do it in the service, I doubt anyone can do it here even if I am just a "gurl".

So I say to you again, PEACE.

You should try having an open mind once in a while. It wouldn't hurt.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Intrepid2002
Apr 22 2004, 12:38 PM
No sir, I'm past the meaning of the word "is" and "may".  I'm saying his actions speak louder than his words, and that's my opinion.  I'm saying why leave room for doubt?  If he feels the UN is irrelevant, then he should say it, none of this "may be irrelevant" crap.  Again, that is my opinion.  Contrary to what you might think, I DO get your point.  It's MY point YOU are not getting.

we are not talking about the present we are talking about the past. What the president said before the war. He can’t go back in time and change what he said can he? And he side maybe at that time because he didn’t know what would happen to the UN, he only felt that if they didn’t take action they would be dangerously close and may become irrelevant.

Quote:
 
Please convey to the president my apologies. When you speak to him again, please tell him I didn't mean to twist his words.
I have never talked to the president – and I doubt I ever will.

Quote:
 
It would be nice if the actions matched the words but maybe that's too much to ask
what actions do not mach what words?


Quote:
 
Where's all this hostility coming from?   :P  You see, this is where I get confused. Is there is a language barrier between Republicans and Democrats or is it just my imagination?  No where did I mention fight, and sorry I wasn't aware the word Peace meant fight.  *sigh*  Hey, try and kick my ass anytime.  They taught me how to watch my ass in the military.  They couldn't do it in the service, I doubt anyone can do it here even if I am just a "gurl".
I’m sorry it was a bad joke. I was trying to show how you cant just change the meanings of words, that’s why I added the kiss at the end to show I was not being serious. I guess It didn’t come off right. No real hostilities meant. Oh by the way I am not a republican.


Quote:
 
You should try having an open mind once in a while.  It wouldn't hurt.
I am assuming this has to do with my joke, so I will not take offence to it. But just for the record I do have a very open mind.
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Intrepid2002
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UNGH!
Dandandat
Apr 22 2004, 11:49 AM
Intrepid2002
Apr 22 2004, 12:38 PM
No sir, I'm past the meaning of the word "is" and "may".  I'm saying his actions speak louder than his words, and that's my opinion.  I'm saying why leave room for doubt?  If he feels the UN is irrelevant, then he should say it, none of this "may be irrelevant" crap.  Again, that is my opinion.  Contrary to what you might think, I DO get your point.  It's MY point YOU are not getting.

we are not talking about the present we are talking about the past. What the president said before the war. He can’t go back in time and change what he said can he? And he side maybe at that time because he didn’t know what would happen to the UN, he only felt that if they didn’t take action they would be dangerously close and may become irrelevant.

Quote:
 
Please convey to the president my apologies. When you speak to him again, please tell him I didn't mean to twist his words.
I have never talked to the president – and I doubt I ever will.

Quote:
 
It would be nice if the actions matched the words but maybe that's too much to ask
what actions do not mach what words?


Quote:
 
Where's all this hostility coming from?   :P  You see, this is where I get confused. Is there is a language barrier between Republicans and Democrats or is it just my imagination?  No where did I mention fight, and sorry I wasn't aware the word Peace meant fight.  *sigh*  Hey, try and kick my ass anytime.  They taught me how to watch my ass in the military.  They couldn't do it in the service, I doubt anyone can do it here even if I am just a "gurl".
I’m sorry it was a bad joke. I was trying to show how you cant just change the meanings of words, that’s why I added the kiss at the end to show I was not being serious. I guess It didn’t come off right. No real hostilities meant. Oh by the way I am not a republican.


Quote:
 
You should try having an open mind once in a while.  It wouldn't hurt.
I am assuming this has to do with my joke, so I will not take offence to it. But just for the record I do have a very open mind.

I RESPECT and appreciate your last post and I'll leave it at that. Okay, enough with the kissing. People are going to think there's something going on between the two of us. *injected humor people*

:wave2:
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Intrepid2002
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UNGH!
Intrepid2002
Apr 22 2004, 12:18 PM

Oh by the way I am not a republican.


I never like beating a dead horse but I just like to know where people are coming from. After reading Wichita's campaign thread and seeing all the BUSH CHENEY campaign material addressed to you, can I safely assume you are not a registered Republican who tows the party line and just are on their mailing list asking you to have neighborhood parties and the like?

Just curious.
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Intrepid2002
Apr 23 2004, 01:58 PM
Intrepid2002
Apr 22 2004, 12:18 PM

Oh by the way I am not a republican.


I never like beating a dead horse but I just like to know where people are coming from. After reading Wichita's campaign thread and seeing all the BUSH CHENEY campaign material addressed to you, can I safely assume you are not a registered Republican who tows the party line and just are on their mailing list asking you to have neighborhood parties and the like?

Just curious.

^^

Just a clarification. It's not "my" campaign post. I also started one for Kerry and Nader.
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Admiralbill_gomec
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Intrepid2002
Apr 23 2004, 08:58 AM
Intrepid2002
Apr 22 2004, 12:18 PM

Oh by the way I am not a republican.


I never like beating a dead horse but I just like to know where people are coming from. After reading Wichita's campaign thread and seeing all the BUSH CHENEY campaign material addressed to you, can I safely assume you are not a registered Republican who tows the party line and just are on their mailing list asking you to have neighborhood parties and the like?

Just curious.

I believe Dante supports George Bush in this election, but he is not a registered Republican.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Intrepid2002
Apr 23 2004, 09:58 AM
Intrepid2002
Apr 22 2004, 12:18 PM

Oh by the way I am not a republican.


I never like beating a dead horse but I just like to know where people are coming from. After reading Wichita's campaign thread and seeing all the BUSH CHENEY campaign material addressed to you, can I safely assume you are not a registered Republican who tows the party line and just are on their mailing list asking you to have neighborhood parties and the like?

Just curious.

AB is correct, I do support the reelection of our president, as I believe he is the best man for the job. I think he has done an outstanding job in the last four hard going years, even if they have been controversial. I believe he is a good man, even if people think he is evil. He might not be a rocket scientist, he might not be a good speaker, but he is a man that says what he thinks, and does what he says and I respect that. In my opinion at this point in time our country needs strong leadership not some one who goes along to get along internationally. I also believe our society has gotten to liberal for its own good and we need to take a few steps back, and that requires a republican not a demarcate. Now by no means does this mean that I love that my only chose is Bush, he has his problems, and unfortunately the real people in this world that should be president never make it far enough to make a presidential run. But given the chose between Bush and the guys the DNC put up this time, Bush for the reasons I have given wins no matter how I look at it.

Now this does not make me a republican as I particular dislike the party system in our country and I believe partisanship is the reason we never get good legislation on important topics. For as long as I live I will never join ether the democratic or republican parts nor will I toe ether of their party lines as you put it. Now my beliefs and theirs may over lap at times, but that is just how life falls.

Also as far as liberalism and conservatism (in the purest science of the words) goes, I like to fancy my self a staunch centrist. This does not mean I take the middle point on all issues, it just means that taken all the issues you will find me all over the board. For example I am atheistic but I do not stand with those who want to take every facet of god out of our country. I do agree that a “family” (yes a family not just a woman) has a right to choice, but I believe in our society the choice has been made to easy to make, and call for reform. I agree with the right for gay people to do what ever they want with their life, but I recent the way they have gone about wining those rights (side stepping the political system, and exploiting loop holes). Ect ect.

As a staunch centrist I will vote for any woman/man who I feel is best for the job no matter what party they belong to. This is why (as seen in the “Kerry has no message post”) I have a big problem with the fact (in my opinion of cores) that Kerry doesn’t seem to have a message. Not that I want to use that fact as a rally cry to reelect president Bush, but because he is not leaving me with a choice. By default form where I am staining at this point in time (maybe things will change as we get closer to Nov) I only have one chose in the up coming election and that is to vote for Bush. Yes I am glad I like Bush because it makes this fact easier to swallow. But I much rather prefer the ability to look at two candidates and run them side by side and see who I like the best. I really do wish that Kerry will tell me soon why I should vote for him (and not why I shouldn’t vote for Bush)

Sorry that my answer is so long, I started with a short answer but it kept leading to more information. I hope you understand now how I support our president, and yet I am not a republican.
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ANOVA
Vice Admiral
Dante, you running dog centrist you.

You know Intrepid you gotta take a persons word for some things.

Let's see.

Dante is:

Happily married.
A political centrist.
An atheist.
A whiz at computers, websites and networking.
An all round nice guy.

How do I know these things? Becuase Dante has given me no reason to doubt his claims. He has even supported some of these claims (he doesn't make the nice guy claim, I do) through his posts and actions.

ANOVA




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ANOVA
Vice Admiral
Quote:
 
I never like beating a dead horse but...


Linquistic logic states the the use of the word "but" negates all that procedes. It seems that the use of such logic and the fact that you flog the dead horse despite your supposed dislike of the action indicates that you actually like such beatings.

Wow, your right, when actions and words don't match, an individual looks hypocritical. But, what do I know?

ANOVA

Besides the UN is irrelevent.
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Intrepid2002
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UNGH!
Dandandat
Apr 24 2004, 12:31 AM
Intrepid2002
Apr 23 2004, 09:58 AM
Intrepid2002
Apr 22 2004, 12:18 PM

Oh by the way I am not a republican.


I never like beating a dead horse but I just like to know where people are coming from. After reading Wichita's campaign thread and seeing all the BUSH CHENEY campaign material addressed to you, can I safely assume you are not a registered Republican who tows the party line and just are on their mailing list asking you to have neighborhood parties and the like?

Just curious.

AB is correct, I do support the reelection of our president, as I believe he is the best man for the job. I think he has done an outstanding job in the last four hard going years, even if they have been controversial. I believe he is a good man, even if people think he is evil. He might not be a rocket scientist, he might not be a good speaker, but he is a man that says what he thinks, and does what he says and I respect that. In my opinion at this point in time our country needs strong leadership not some one who goes along to get along internationally. I also believe our society has gotten to liberal for its own good and we need to take a few steps back, and that requires a republican not a demarcate. Now by no means does this mean that I love that my only chose is Bush, he has his problems, and unfortunately the real people in this world that should be president never make it far enough to make a presidential run. But given the chose between Bush and the guys the DNC put up this time, Bush for the reasons I have given wins no matter how I look at it.

Now this does not make me a republican as I particular dislike the party system in our country and I believe partisanship is the reason we never get good legislation on important topics. For as long as I live I will never join ether the democratic or republican parts nor will I toe ether of their party lines as you put it. Now my beliefs and theirs may over lap at times, but that is just how life falls.

Also as far as liberalism and conservatism (in the purest science of the words) goes, I like to fancy my self a staunch centrist. This does not mean I take the middle point on all issues, it just means that taken all the issues you will find me all over the board. For example I am atheistic but I do not stand with those who want to take every facet of god out of our country. I do agree that a “family” (yes a family not just a woman) has a right to choice, but I believe in our society the choice has been made to easy to make, and call for reform. I agree with the right for gay people to do what ever they want with their life, but I recent the way they have gone about wining those rights (side stepping the political system, and exploiting loop holes). Ect ect.

As a staunch centrist I will vote for any woman/man who I feel is best for the job no matter what party they belong to. This is why (as seen in the “Kerry has no message post”) I have a big problem with the fact (in my opinion of cores) that Kerry doesn’t seem to have a message. Not that I want to use that fact as a rally cry to reelect president Bush, but because he is not leaving me with a choice. By default form where I am staining at this point in time (maybe things will change as we get closer to Nov) I only have one chose in the up coming election and that is to vote for Bush. Yes I am glad I like Bush because it makes this fact easier to swallow. But I much rather prefer the ability to look at two candidates and run them side by side and see who I like the best. I really do wish that Kerry will tell me soon why I should vote for him (and not why I shouldn’t vote for Bush)

Sorry that my answer is so long, I started with a short answer but it kept leading to more information. I hope you understand now how I support our president, and yet I am not a republican.

No not too long at all. If you're going to explain where you're coming from then best you do it well regardless of how long it takes. :D

It sometimes amazes me how people polarize each other with political labels yet in actuality are similar in many, many ways.



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