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Another extrajudicial killing by the IDF; Another to come ?
Topic Started: Apr 17 2004, 10:19 PM (1,823 Views)
Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Wow, I don't have to say a word.

Yo-Yo, Doctortobe, Admiralbill, Anova, and even The Sisko have done my work for me this time. Thanks guys!

Intrepid2002 - My username was picked because it combined my love of music with a Star Trek character (Riker's holodeck lover) I'm not french, but as a Canadian I learned a bit at school. Unfortunately I can't hold a conversation in french.
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Yo-Yo
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Your welcome Minuet and my plesure.

I learned French until 9th grade in Toronto then dropped it the most i can say coheriently are kindergarden bitties like "Bonjour, comment tappel tu?" and "Je ne parle pas Francais!" :P

Vive le Quebec! :lol:
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Yo-Yo
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I found an interesting article i should put things on the IDF side into more persepective:

http://www.warchronicle.com/israel/2002/bethlehem.htm
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Yo Yo :
Quote:
 
Now you think its practical to try and stun an entire city for a couple of seconds to drive into the middle of it
why would want to stun an entire city , when all need is maybe a few buildings in walled enclosure ? And to use of covert operations (in the dark - easily to cut off electricity - ie EMP generators or just cutting the cables).

None-the-less , what the Russian's did in the theatre (with improved agents) could achieve that (sorting out the medical issues which the Russian security forces botched).

I read the links I posted.

Nice propoganda piece you posted. Sure most the front line IDF personnel don't want to be where they are (no one denies that) , but my understanding is most are compulsorily conscripted.
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Minuet
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Somerled, I have a question for you. Have you got any first hand military experience whatsoever?

I admit that I don't which is why I have had the brains to stay out of this part of the conversation. You should consider the fact that Admiralbill has extensive military experience and Doctortobe is currently receiving military training. Both of them have first hand training and experience in these types of situations and yet you persist in ignoring what they are telling you about what it is like to actually be in the thick of things.

And your comments about what happened in the theatre in Russia just show more of your ignorance. What proof do you have that this could have been done safely? Do you have any background in medicine at all? I will give you my small experience based on a number of years doing medical underwriting for insurance. That experience tells me that there are no medications that don't affect some people differently then others. They all have unexpected side effects on a small number of people. I don't think that you could develop a gas that would work as expected on everyone. That is why people die when they try to use gas.

It must be nice to sit in your ivory tower and pass judgement on things you know nothing about.
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
somerland, to ensure the safety of a patient while under the influence of gas, an anesthesiologist must have constant information on their vital signs while constantly changing the flow to keep the patient from either becoming conscious, or slipping into a coma. You really can't expect a team of anesthesiologists to barge in after the gas has taken effect and then constantly either waft gas towards or away from people while taking their pulse.

The reason why you must take into account the whole population of the town is the fact that the whole male population of the town is a militia armed with AK-47s and RPG-9s. If any word of the assault got out, if one guard were able to spread the alarm about the attack, then your team is as good as dead.

I beleive that I have found out the major flaw in your thought process however. As an engineer, you must realize that the more simplistic the design of a machine, the less likely something on it will break down. The same mindset applies to military strategy. The more complex the manuver is, the more likely you will end up dead. In fact, almost all of the American Army's tactics revolve around the simple action of suppressing and flanking for this very reason.

You have also decided to take the best case scenario and work from it. You are assuming that your plan should work, therefore it will work. This is a dangerous way of thinking on the battlefield. A military leader must be a horrible pessimist when planning operations. If it can go wrong, it will go wrong. Murphy and his law are best buddies of any general. Why? Because the more you see the things that can go wrong with your plan, the more you can change it so that your soldiers won't die.

War is not like engineering somerland, you cannot just write a mathematical equation and say "The laws of physics support my findings so therefore this will work". Battlefields have so many variables that it defies any chance of prediction. You cannot find out how the minds of dozens of humans are going to think, nor can you forsee the malfunction of weapons or a sudden change in the weather.
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captain_proton_au
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A Robot in Disguise

Ay, Ay Ay

How did this thread get to 6 pages already?

I would bother reading it, but I can already pretty much guess what has been going on.

Spongebath shooting his mouth off again before his brain has time to catch up?
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ANOVA
Vice Admiral
Quote:
 
Yo-Yo, Doctortobe, Admiralbill, Anova, and even The Sisko have done my work for me this time. Thanks guys!


*tips cowboy hat* my pleasure ma'am

Somerled,

I really don't care if you accept historical fact or not. The Jews cannot and should not rely on any nation for their protection. Look at the rise of anti-sematism in France. Only the continued exsistance of a zionist state can guaranetee the survival of the Jewish people. No state, including the USA, is immortal, When a nation falls or falters should the Jewish people fall with it?

Quote:
 
What you seem to be advocating is an ethnically apartide Jewish state


Would seem so, except Israel does allow Arab Israelis to enjoy full rights. Would a purely jewish state be immoral? Try immigrating to Japan or Suadi Arabia. Of course persons with Israeli pasports need not apply for so much as a visa for Saudi.

It would only be an apartied if and only if: another group is allowed in the state and those people were not allowed the full exercise of rights allowed by the ruling (and here comes the key word) minority.

Quote:
 
Also if they (Hamas and their offshoots) are not a military organisation, then they are criminals (viewed from the Israeli perspective), so should be treated as such if you follow Israeli and accept logic.


I dont accept the logic of Israeli government. I already stated that Hamas in particualr, and terrrorists in general,should be treated as spies and sabotuers.

ANOVA
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Doc:
That wasn't done in the Moscow (Nord-Ost) theatre incident (granted people died, but that was because the security forces refused entry for the ambulence personnel for an extended period because they were not sure if the agent they had used had knocked out all the bad guys and this delayed unnecessarily the assistance needed by many of the more susceptable hostages (I believe if my memory serves me , 90 out of > 750 hostages which was better than all them dying (I guess) but all 34 heavily armed and well trained terrorists (who had the advantage) were overcome ).

The lungs are a very efficient means of transporting many chemical agents to the blood system, so , it should not be difficult to develop a means of delivering the antidote by a gaseous or colliodal form that the unconscious innocents or bestanders can simply breath in.

We are not talking about putting people under so far as is necessary for surgery here, they just need to be made very groggy, or very calm or stoned (so they wont care if they observe "enemy soldiers moving in"), or made temporarily unconscious.

There are always knock-out darts as an alternative.

Minuet:
Military experience ? - no - no personal adult military service. How is that question relevant ?
Medical training ?- well first aid training (part of gas and disaster rescue teams at BHP) and three sisters who are nurses - does that count ? I read widely and have all my life.

Proton:
Do you have anything relevant to add to this discussion or is it that you just wanted to earn some more browny points ?
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Yo Yo :
re where Jew's live , I was curious so I have checked your assertion.

This is what I have found (and it seems credible and up to date)
Where are jewish people to be found : Posted Image
Quote:
 

United States 5,700,000
Israel 5,000,000
France 600,000
Canada 365,000
Russia 300,000
United Kingdom 280,000
Argentina 200,000
Ukraine 180,000
Brazil 110,000
Australia 100,000
Germany 100,000
South Africa 80,000
Hungary 60,000
Mexico 41,000
Belgium 33,000
Belarus 30,000
Italy 30,000
Netherlands 28,000
Uruguay 25,000
Venezuela 22,000
Chile 21,000
Turkey 20,000
Iran 18,000
Switzerland 18,000
Sweden 16,000
Moldova 15,000
Uzbekistan 15,000
Spain 14,000
Romania 12,000
Austria  10,000
Azerbaijan 10,000
Kazakhstan 10,000
Latvia 10,000
Georgia 9,000
Denmark 8,000
Hawaii, USA 7,000
Panama 7,000
Morocco 6,000
Poland 5,000
Czech Republic 5,000
India 5,000
Lithuania 5,000
Slovakia 5,000
Colombia 5,000
New Zealand 5,000
Greece 4,500
Bulgaria 3,000
Peru 3,000
Kyrgyzstan 2,500
Estonia 2,500
Puerto Rico 2,500
Costa Rica 2,500
Yugoslavia (Serbia)  2,500
Croatia 2,000
Hong Kong 2,000
Japan 1,500
Tunisia 1,500
Tajikistan 1,500
Norway 1,500
Finland 1,200
Ireland 1,200
Guatemala 1,000
Turkmenistan 1,000
Ecuador 1,000
Paraguay 900
Zimbabwe 900
Portugal 800
Monaco 800
Gibraltar 650
Luxembourg 600
Cuba 600
Ethiopia 500
Bolivia 500
Bosnia-Herzegovina 400
Kenya 400
Netherlands Antilles 400
US Virgin Islands 300
Jamaica 300
Singapore 300
Bahamas 300
Thailand 250
Curacao & Aruva 200
Yemen 200
Suriname 200
Congo (Zaire) 150
Dominican Republic 150
South Korea 150
El Salvador 120
Armenia 120
Philippines 100
Syria 100
Iraq 100
Tahiti 100

Sum = 13,593,990

of which :
United States which has 5,700,000
Israel which has 5,000,000
France which has 600,000
Canada which has 365,000
Russia which has 300,000
United Kingdom 280,000
Argentina which has 200,000
Ukraine which has 180,000
Brazil which has 110,000
Australia which has 100,000
Germany which 100,000

representing 95% of all jewery.

The USA and Canada together are still significantly larger jewish communities than Israel and are likely to remain the dominant homes for jewry for a long time to come.
Check for yourself if you like World Jewry

So why are so few people in the USA ( < 2% of 293 million ) so influential in USA international policy making (does this have something to do with the geographic location of USA's jewish communities ) or their accumulated wealth (are they disproportionately wealthy and powerful cf the rest of the USA's population) or is something else coming into play ?

Please don't be offended , but to an outsider it seems very much like a case of the tail wagging the dog (in the USA) and that that USA jewry perhaps receives super-preferential treatment . This is a serious question and is not meant as an attack .
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Minuet
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somerled
Apr 22 2004, 01:31 AM
Minuet:
Military experience ? - no - no personal adult military service. How is that question relevant ?
Medical training ?- well first aid training (part of gas and disaster rescue teams at BHP) and three sisters who are nurses - does that count ? I read widely and have all my life.


Military experience is very relevant to this conversation in that you have the gall to suggest military tactics to those who actually do have experience.

The same thing goes for your medical experience. Like you I am widely read on the subject due to personal interest, and professional need as a medical insurance underwriter. But neither you nor I are trained professionally. And having relatives who are does not increase your knowlege one bit. My cousin is a doctor, that doesn't give me any relevant knowledge. Only someone to ask questions of.

And I think you need to CAREFULLY reread Doctortobe's words

Quote:
 
You have also decided to take the best case scenario and work from it. You are assuming that your plan should work, therefore it will work. This is a dangerous way of thinking on the battlefield. A military leader must be a horrible pessimist when planning operations. If it can go wrong, it will go wrong. Murphy and his law are best buddies of any general. Why? Because the more you see the things that can go wrong with your plan, the more you can change it so that your soldiers won't die.

War is not like engineering somerland, you cannot just write a mathematical equation and say "The laws of physics support my findings so therefore this will work". Battlefields have so many variables that it defies any chance of prediction. You cannot find out how the minds of dozens of humans are going to think, nor can you forsee the malfunction of weapons or a sudden change in the weather.


One final note - the gas idea can only work in an enclosed space. It cannot work outdoors. Therefore it still requires the ability of the military personel delivering it to be able to get near the building. As already shown, this is a dangerous and difficult thing to do in the territories.
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Minuet
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somerled
Apr 22 2004, 02:23 AM
The USA and Canada together are still significantly larger jewish communities than Israel and are likely to remain the dominant homes for jewry for a long time to come.
Check for yourself if you like

I wouldn't use the word "significantly" in describing the slightly larger population then Israel has.

And the Jewish population is still a minority in those countries. I would like to remind you of another country where the Jews thought they were safe and comfortable. They were educated, had good jobs, and well assimilated into the larger society. What country am I talking about?

Germany.

Enough said on that.

As for Jewish influence on politics, it is not nearly as large as you seem to think it is. I see the U.S. policy on Israel coming from this. They actually seem to understand the history of the Jewish people, and based on the fundamental principals on which the U.S. is founded they honestly believe that they are doing the right thing. BTW, the U.S. has not adbandoned the Arabs in that region either. They have spent much time and energy trying to build peace. It gets thrown back in thier face every time. I have a question for you. If 2 of your sisters had a major fight and you tried to be the peacemaker how would you feel if one of your sisters said "yes, I would love to reconcile with my sister" but the other said "You are not helping at all. You always take her side. Get lost, I don't want to talk to you either" That is the position the U.S. is in. The Arabs have not given an inch.

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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet :

Point taken on the German connection - however that was an aburration.

On the matter of using a non-lethal gas or colliodal reagent in suspension in assalts - these can readily be designed so that they are effective in outside deployments (one needs to design the gas with the right density - ie CO , I'm not advocating the use of CO however it could be used non-lethally if the concentration was right , has a density slightly greater than air and so tends to pool in depressions and streetscapes can be regarded as a walled-in depressions - in fact one can actually be exthixiated by CO in the open if the concentration is high enough - anyone with gas-watcher or gas-rescue training knows that.

wrt interference comments - well in my family - I maintain a personal policy in that if my siblings are fighting, I stay out of it unless I'm responsible in which case I accept the blame and try to make things right.
Taking sides in family arguments only leads to others in the family similarly taking sides and the end result is a polarised family - that's bad news.
Well that's how I do things, but my wife sees it differently when it comes to her family and tends to side with her mother in all cases (even if she is obviously in the wrong), my policy with her family is they are her family and not mine so - so long as what they do has no deliterious impact on my household , I'm not interested in their petty disputes.

Maybe you do things differently in your household.

As to USA's international policies (and interference) and their beliefs and morality - I shall have to give it more thought .
There was an interesting interview with an Philosophy Professor (an Australian I think) who is currently teaching at a major US university on LATELINE which dealt with the philosophy of the current administration wrt its foreign policy. (Transcript there tomorrow I should think - interesting things said.)
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Admiralbill_gomec
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Of course he doesn't realize that 90+ percent of academics are far-leftists... so can we expect anything NEW aside from the usual Bush bashing?
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Bill - are you rejecting his comments without actually reviewing it . That's very arrogent .
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