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Another extrajudicial killing by the IDF; Another to come ?
Topic Started: Apr 17 2004, 10:19 PM (1,824 Views)
Yo-Yo
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Captain
My interent is down i'm typing from a library! :ZZZZZ:

Sooo how many effective non-lethal weapons have they come up with? :headscratch:
Israel employs on civilian riots tear gas and in sever cases rubber bullets. And oyu know what? in long run it doesn't work. I'm not saying shoot civilians, HECK NO! But all tat happened is the crowd disperesed, with some people injured and the media puts a negative light on it. and then they just came back the next day. (These are in refrence to the 'intafada')

With regards to removal of terrorist leaders with non-lethal weapons. Unless you have something that will render a city unconscious waht exatly do you have in mind that will enable a squad of special forces to get into a desnely poopulated and heavily armed (yes that do not have tanks but they have PLENTY of ak-47s, shotguns, m-16s, rpg, mines, mortars, and kassam rockets) hostile city with out any deaths or injuries on bith sides?

In operation defensive sheild two years ago, IDF opted for a house to housesearch instead of just blowing up suspected buildings. This is EXTREMELY dangerous but a risk the IDF decided to take to minimize civilian casualties. Becasue of this soldiers died. One of which was 14 of your desired special forces who got led to a house by an palestinian boy only to ambushed in a alley way with remote detonated mines, and rpg and machine gun fire from all sides. All 14 died and on of my Rabbis (who taught me in highschool in Canada where i live) had to fly back to israel for the funerals because he was a commonader of that unit.

I dont think anymore need be said urban warfare is the deadliest form of combat and to go into the heart of a hostil armed city to extract a heavily gaurded terrorist leader is nothing by suicidal and stupid :angry:
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
First, the reason that religion and brotherly love has not allowed the Palistinians to come to a peaceful resolution is the fact that the religion and the government is actively trying to STOP the peace process. If the clerics and government and the terrorists were silenced, it is my belief that the attacks would stop. There would probably still be hatred of the Jews by the Palistinians, but they would be much more loath to act without being directly attacked by the Isrealis.

The Isrealis, on the other hand, attack only when they believe that they can weaken Palistinian terror groups' ability to conduct bombings.

Second, the reason that the international community will NEVER become involved in this conflict is because they know that Palistine is in the wrong, but they do not want to support Isreal or else they will draw the ire of terrorist groups and the major oil producing nations of the world. Any kind of UN intervention would end up killing more Palestinians then Jews because the Isrealis would be content to let the UN protect them while the Palestinians would still be trying to bomb Isreali targets. This intervention would probably make the UN a target as well.

Third, gas would not be a viable option for suppressing guards and civilians. As the use of gas in the Moscow theatre showed us, it can be fatal to both young, sick, or elderly people. Tranq. darts take time to take effect so guards would still be able to raise the alarm. Tazers usually make people scream at the top of their lungs (again raising the alarm) and are ill suited towards large numbers of people due to their low firing rate.

I do not know of any instances in WWII where non-lethal force was used in SpecOps missions. A knife to the throat is the most effective way to silence an enemy with little or no noise.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
Quote:
 
My interent is down i'm typing from a library!

Then you're in the right place. :)
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Yo-Yo
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Captain
Its back up again! :woohoo:
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Fesarius
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Admiral
^^^
Darn. Does this mean that you don't like libraries? ;(
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
somerled
Apr 20 2004, 08:28 AM
Time for some philosophising : (Filled in an hour flying back to Williamtown RAAF base / Newcastle Airport).

The Prisoner’s Dilemma (never heard of it - look it up - an good example was MAD) applies to the Israeli/Palestinian troubles in that both groups are actually behaving rationally individually from their own viewpoints and the result is a continuing collective disaster because as a group the behaviour is actually completely irrational and stupid.

The Prisoner's Dilemma will not work in this case. You have to have cooperation for it to work. The Israelis have tried. The Palestinians have blown up restaurants and any other place where Israelis might congregate.

In the prisoner's Dilemma, each side has two choices. You can either cooperate, or you can act in your own interest. So, you have a Win-Win, a Win-Lose, a Lose-Win, or a Lose-Lose. Mutual altruism works, but in only 25% of the options. In the other 75% chances either one or both sides loses. Those odds are not very good.

The Israelis, under Ehud Barak, offered to give up more than 90 percent of the West Bank (the final number was 95%), all of Gaza, and a presence in east Jerusalem. The Palestinians, under Yasser "That's My Baby" Arafat, said, "Sorry, not good enough." Then they blew up a pizzeria.

You simply CAN NOT reason with a group whose charter calls for your destruction. Forget the tasers and the rubber bullets. You have a nation to protect, and singing Kumbaya and offering white doves ain't gonna do it.

I don't know how much easier I can make this for Somerled to understand, but I know he simply refuses to accept it because Israel is an American ally.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
Quote:
 
You simply CAN NOT reason with a group whose charter calls for your destruction. Forget the tasers and the rubber bullets. You have a nation to protect, and singing Kumbaya and offering white doves ain't gonna do it.

If true, and I believe that this is, then one's options become extremely limited. I also believe that our current option is a viable one, and that in time, it will work out for the best.
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Dr. Noah
Sistertrek's Asian Correspondant
I realize a lot of you know me as the bleeding heart, but I gotta say that assasination of leaders who encourage terrorism is okay by me. If this Sadr guy ended up with a sniper shot through his temple, this heart wouldn't bleed for him I can tell you that.
I think that this is the type of strategy that should be used in the war on terror. Instead of taking over nations and trying to bring democracy to a place that never had it is a far more complicated task, and quite frankly, isn't our responsibility. If we were to simply assasinate Hussein and other dictators, that would be cool with me. I realize that this isn't always easy or even possible, but with global spy satellites and guided bombs that can hit within 10ft. of thier target from a mile up, it's at least something to consider.
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Yo-Yo
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Captain
Nah my chiar at home is just more comfy!
Posted Image
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Intrepid2002
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UNGH!
Minuet
Apr 19 2004, 05:36 PM
No need to be sorry. :D

Dwayne is a little "out of the box" too! I just like picking on Somerled. :whistle:

Minuet..... your name sounds french :wow: :D ;)

I still love these smilies....
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Yo Yo :
Some non-lethal military weaponry links :
Quote:
 
Nonlethal technologies such as polymer, calmative, and chemical agents, are being developed into antipersonnel and antimaterial weapons that can minimize and/or eliminate casualties and collateral damage. The DOD should exploit the development and use of nonlethal weapons and adapt them to military police missions

from Nonlethal Weapons and Their Role in Military Police Missions

Non-Lethal Weapons which includes info on:
Vehicle-Mounted Active Denial System (V-MADS)
Quote:
 
Active Denial Technology is a breakthrough non-lethal technology that uses millimeter-wave electromagnetic energy to stop, deter and turn back an advancing adversary from relatively long range. It is expected to save countless lives by providing a way to stop individuals without causing injury, before a deadly confrontation develops.

High-power microwave (HPM) / E-Bomb
Quote:
 
High-power microwave (HPM) sources have been under investigation for several years as potential weapons for a variety of combat, sabotage, and terrorist applications.

Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) and High Powered Microwave (HMP) Weapons offer a significant capability against electronic equipment susceptible to damage by transient power surges. ....... Would fry the electronics in the bad-guy's vehicles and radios and telephones so they can't call for more support or get away in their cars)


M5 Modular Crowd Control Munition
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The M5 Modular Crowd Control Munition (MCCM) is a non-lethal munition used to incapacitate large group of personnel with the Flash Bang and Impact of rubber balls. It can be deployed by mounted or dismounted troops and provides a visual deterrent due to similarity in appearance to the M18A1 Claymore munition. The MCCM can be fired singularly or in a group and has an effective range of 5 to 30 meters with a 60 degree coverage.


M84 Stun Grenade
Quote:
 
The XM84 Stun Grenade is a non-fragmentation, non-lethal "Flash And Bang" stun grenade that is intended to provide a reliable, effective non-lethal means of neutralizing & disorienting enemy personnel.

The M84 non-lethal stun grenade is a non-lethal, low hazard, non-shrapnel producing explosive device intended to confuse, disorient or momentarily distract potential threat personnel. The device produces a temporary incapacitation to threat personnel or innocent by standers. This device will be used by military personnel in hostage rescue situations and in the capture of criminals, terrorists or other adversaries. It provides commanders a non-lethal capability to increase the flexibility in the application of force during military operations


Mobility Denial System (MDS)
Quote:
 
The Mobility Denial System (MDS) is a USMC Lead program. The MDS (formerly known as the Non-Lethal Slippery Foam Program) Development Team completed a Systems Requirements Analysis (SRA) and a Systems Requirements Review (SRR) in October 2001 . The requirements analysis determined that a man-pack is needed to seal in and around buildings which would deny access through doors, hallways, and windows. It was also determined that a vehicle mounted could apply large quantities of Anti-Traction Material (ATM) to streets, intersections, and open areas as needed. The Tailored Executive Analysis (TEA), Market Surveys, Laboratory and Field Assessments have identified an ATM that the MDS Development Team is pursuing. Both dispensers will use the same material, a combination of Drilling Mud Additive, Flocculent and water. Once applied, the material will degrade or impair the adversary's ability to move. For Interior applications it can be applied to flat, smooth, non-porous surfaces such as linoleum, tile, wood floors or staircases. Exterior applications include sloped, rough, porous surfaces such as concrete, asphalt, and grassy areas.


Pulsed Energy Projectile (PEP)
Quote:
 
The object of the Pulsed Energy Projectile (PEP) program is to develop and demonstrate the technology necessary to produce a crew served, counter personnel non-lethal directed energy weapon providing controllable bio-effects to deter, disable, and distract individuals. The device directs an invisible induced plasma pulse at a target that will create a flash-bang near the intended target

This counterpersonnel capability projects a beam that creates a plasma pulse at the target. When the plasma pulse strikes an individual, it results in a flash-bang effect that startles and distracts, and it also has a kinetic effect on the individual's nerve sensors.



and War Without Death.(nonlethal weapons) by USAMC

and heaps more for you to follow up on if you have the time and inclination
Etc etc etc
I like this one : Sticky Shocker® Posted Image
Quote:
 
The Sticky Shocker® idea evolved in response to the need for a nonlethal weapon bridging the gap between kinetic rounds (e.g., rubber bullets, beanbags, wooden batons) and devices designed for use at close-in range, such as electric stun devices with darts and pepper spray (effective only within 5 m) or stun guns (arms-length range). The Sticky Shocker® concept puts stun gun technology on a wireless self-contained projectile, allowing temporary incapacitation of a human target at safe, stand-off distance, using a widely accepted 40 mm or 37 mm projectile configuration and conventional launchers. The Sticky Shocker® can extend the range of electrical stun technology out to 10 m and potentially further. The projectile contains a battery pack and associated electronics that will impart a short burst of high-voltage pulses. Pulse amplitudes are near 50 kV with pulse widths of a few microseconds and repetition rate between 10 to 15 pulses per second. The pulse characteristics are similar to those of commercial stun guns. The pulses are not lethal but will disable a human target temporarily, with full recovery from impact within a few minutes

would not be a pleasant sensation !

and Not-so-deadly force: the search for a kinder, gentler knockout punch.(development of nonlethal weapons for military and civilian use)

Calming chemical agents that can be dispersed as gases or vapours - the Russians were on the right track .

Bill :
wrt the Prisoners Dilemma , I do not think you understand it, actually it comes down to
1 . External Cohersion option where if either of the "prisoners" cooperates he winds up gettng concrete boots when he is released, so the penalty for cooperation is worst to that person than the penalty for not cooperating (ie the nuclear arms race , where USA and old USSR remained armed because they don't trust each other).
Need someone or an organisation both fear and consequences too terrible to contemplate to force the issue to get the "prisoners" (Israelis and Palestinians) to be forced to live peacefully.
2. "MAD" option - well that is self explanatory I think. (It creates external cohersion without a 3rd party involvement).
3. Internal Cohersion - where the "prisoners" are forced to take the philosophical equivalent to a "morality pill" which makes them cooperate.

There are only 3 options , all based on how the "prisoners" are cohersed to cooperate or not.
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ANOVA
Vice Admiral
Hamas is nat a nation, nor is it an agant of a state. If it were such an entity, then the path would be simple. Destroy Hamas, becuase they are at war with Israel. The destruction of Hamas' command and control apparatus would be a legitimate military target.

But wait it is a war. The state of Israel is threatened by this group. Somerled conveniently views terrorsits as law breakers, who diserve a day in court. Hamas is a paramilitary force that diserves the same consideration as sabotuers, wartime spies, and other combatants who are out of uniform. Shot on sight unless they surrender, in which case thay are held until the end of the conflict.

Israel must activley destroy its existential enimies. Only a Zionist state can guarentee the continued exitence of thw Jewish people.

ANOVA

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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Only a Zionist state can guarentee the continued exitence of thw Jewish people.
- sorry but I do not accept that argument as being entirely valid or reasonable.

There are many more Jewish people happily living in the USA than there will ever be living in Israel, and sizeable groups in many other countries who are thriving and living happily and peacefully and freely (such as in Canada, Australia, France, and the list is long).

What you seem to be advocating is an ethnically apartide Jewish state - this is not acceptable.

Also if they (Hamas and their offshoots) are not a military organisation, then they are criminals (viewed from the Israeli perspective), so should be treated as such if you follow Israeli and accept logic.
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Yo-Yo
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Captain
First off the population difference today between USA and Israel is only a couple hundred thousand. Also Israel experiences a high level of immigration from Jewish communities around the world, the USA and Russia being the leaders.

In response to the post before about non-lethal weapons i am convinced that you just randomly search "non-lethal weapons" on google and posted a bunch of links. Did you read the stuff?

1) Most of them deal with a one-person-at-a-time basis (or a few) kinda difficult to use when facing a hostile CITY.

2) Almost all of the weapons (especially those for large groups as targets) are stun ordinances of various sorts, they stun! Temporarily! A bunch of the articles mention a couple of seconds. Now you think its practical to try and stun an entire city for a couple of seconds to drive into the middle of it, get the bad guy, and drive out? Seriously? :huh:

3) Alot of the articals mention discomforting gases, pepper spray, and rubber bullets. Well guess what? when it there are riots, Israel DOES use those things. But there is a HUGE difference between riots and enters an armed hostile city!

4) Most of the non-lethal weapons mentioned are said to be UNDER DEVELOPEMENT. As in does not yet exist to be used, so what was the point of posting them? :shrug:
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
So should we instead go out and arrest all of Al Quida? No, it would be too dangerous for the people going out after them. When criminal organizations get large enough and try to kill you, you have no choice but to kill them back. This is what a paramilitary organization is. They are not just going to give up and go quietly. There are just some instances where the criminals REFUSE to allow a peaceful outcome somerland. It may not sound like the idealistic world you would like earth to be, but that is just the way things happen sometimes.

Also, non-lethal equipment is only effective when used in large amounts when crowds are present. The amount used depends on the crowd and upon your ability to project the desire to disperse upon them. If the whole city has assault rifles and RPGs, they are not going to stop because a few people are stunned, they are going to keep coming after you until you are dead for the simple reason that they need only kill you while you must continue dealing with them as they recover from the effects of the stunning.

Notice how your article reads that the military is looking at these things for POLICE actions? The only reason that is happening is so that it will be easier for us to subdue a relatively small number of people. If a large number of armed people start to threaten soldiers, then it is no longer a police action but rather a react to contact. In that case, lethal force will ALWAYS be used. To expect anything else would be illogical. I am starting to wonder whether you live a very sheltered life somerland. Either that, or your bias is so strong that your logic is slanted to the point that your view of the world is something very different then the way the world actually works.

So in other words: no, your non-lethal raid to arrest Hamas leaders would still not work and the Isreali assassination is still the best way to stop his threat to innocent lives with the fewest number of lives lost.
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