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| Another extrajudicial killing by the IDF; Another to come ? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 17 2004, 10:19 PM (1,825 Views) | |
| Admiralbill_gomec | Apr 19 2004, 02:04 PM Post #46 |
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UberAdmiral
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A little food for thought from the Wall Street Journal: The Israel Defense Forces has a list of Hamas attacks since September 2000. There have been 425 of them, which killed 377 Israelis and wounded 2,076--the equivalent, if you adjust for population, to roughly 17,100 Americans killed and 94,000 injured. The death toll is the equivalent of nearly six Sept. 11s. |
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| Intrepid2002 | Apr 19 2004, 05:11 PM Post #47 |
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UNGH!
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Yup... has it really gotten to the point where we don't care about the dead or who dies anymore? Really? What a waste of time. Why don't we all just obliterate each other and save some time? We don't want it to get to that point where there is one man left standing. Isn't the point of this all to save life, regardless of who it belongs to ?
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| Intrepid2002 | Apr 19 2004, 05:23 PM Post #48 |
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UNGH!
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Je suis désolé for fear of being called a Tokyo rose.......
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| Minuet | Apr 19 2004, 05:36 PM Post #49 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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No need to be sorry.
Dwayne is a little "out of the box" too! I just like picking on Somerled.
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| Dwayne | Apr 19 2004, 05:56 PM Post #50 |
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Profanity deleted by Hoss
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If box = closet ... Yeah you're right. |
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| doctortobe | Apr 19 2004, 06:30 PM Post #51 |
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Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
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We are trying to save lives. Hamas forces a difficult decision on Isreal. They must either strike back at the few people that wish all Isrealis dead, or they must sit by idly while more citizens are killed. The actions that Isreal is taking is the choice that will in the long run will save more lives. If a man is going to kill your family, and will continue to kill your family until they are all dead. What will you do? He refuses to negotiate with you, the police (other countries) don't wish to intervene because the man has many powerful friends that could cause the city to fall into chaos. You cannot just go and tie this man up as he has many guards. You do however see an opportunity to kill the man. Since you cannot solve this issue peacefully, you have two choices. You can either kill or be killed. If you were the only person affected, and your dislike of death were enough, you could run away, but your family is also a target. So do you save their lives, or forfeit them to this man? The above story is the Isreali conflice in a nutshell. One could argue that the family could apply to either Isreal or Palistine, but there is one major difference between the two. Isreal would gladly cease any attacks into Palistine if the attacks into their country stopped. However, while many Palistinians would be glad to stop attacking Isreal should a chance for peace arise, the leaders of Palistine would not. It would be detrimental for the leaders to let peace come as conflict makes the people look to threats outside their borders instead of problems within. If peace comes, the leaders of Palistine will be unable to control their people as completely as they do now. |
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| Minuet | Apr 19 2004, 07:29 PM Post #52 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Box does not equal closet. In truth I had forgotten that you had previously said you were gay. I do not normally dwell on matters like that. By out of the box I assumed that Intrepid was refering to being a bit on the radical side to the point of making unpopular statements. You and Somerled come from different sides of the political spectrum, but can both go a bit overboard with your comments. That is all that I meant. |
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| somerled | Apr 19 2004, 09:28 PM Post #53 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Doc: Israel could use the IDF equivalent of what we in Australia call the SAS to capture these Hamas leaders or they could use non-lethal force (and there are a range of weapons available for use against individuals and crowds) to do the job. I am not advocating going in in force with armour and engaging in a fire-fight to capture these people. Minuet: A clarification - I am anti-Bush (jr), I have nothing in particular against Americans, any more than I have anything against Canadians (even if they happen to be somewhat odd or strange - must have something to do with the long cold winters). |
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| Minuet | Apr 19 2004, 09:40 PM Post #54 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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You are calling Canadians odd & strange??????? ![]() |
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| somerled | Apr 19 2004, 10:20 PM Post #55 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Ah Lady Minuet : I thought you'd get a laugth out of that (Canadian comment) - ps what is with Kenny aways being killed ? Must dash - I am being flown at government expense to Canberra for my ASIS interview (for the job of "spy") this afternoon, and psychometric (idiot) testing. That'll be a hoot ! They're going to love me - I make a very unlikely patriot. I really don't want the job - they money is lousey and I am not one to take orders or to tow the government line. |
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| doctortobe | Apr 19 2004, 10:51 PM Post #56 |
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Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
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The problem with this is the aforementioned bodyguards. It would be very hard for any kind of Special Forces unit, be they Isreali, American, Austrailian, or Swiss, to sneak into an enclosed compound in the middle of a city full of hostile people. Life rarely emulates James Bond movies or Tom Clancy novels (and in the line of work you are getting into, I'm sure you'll find this out). Even if they were to get in, it would most certainly be impossible to get out. You would need only one guard to sound the alarm and the whole city would be on the alert. And finally, if you merely sent them in to kill the man, that would merely put a squad of men in danger when it would be much easier to blow the man up with missles from a helicopter (which coincidently is exactly what they did). You see, a mission like that has too many variables to be successful. |
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| Dwayne | Apr 19 2004, 11:23 PM Post #57 |
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Profanity deleted by Hoss
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I'm only radical about defeating Islamists, becaus if they had their way, I know what they have in store for homosexual. |
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| Adrian | Apr 20 2004, 01:59 AM Post #58 |
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Lieutenant Commander
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Pretty much the same that fundementalist christian would. Does that mean you feel the same way about christians? |
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| Dwayne | Apr 20 2004, 03:21 AM Post #59 |
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Profanity deleted by Hoss
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Oh really now... How many gay men in the United States have had a wall pushed over on them as punishment for being gay. Typically this is a death sentence, but if somehow you survive, you're free to go. Under the Taliban, that was the punishment in Afghanistan for engaging in homosexuality. As far as I know, no one in the United States is advocating anything like that. Frankly, I find it quite sickening that you'd even try to draw the comparison. It's an insult to Christains and cheapens the acts committed by the Taliban and al Qaeda. |
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| somerled | Apr 20 2004, 08:28 AM Post #60 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Time for some philosophising : (Filled in an hour flying back to Williamtown RAAF base / Newcastle Airport). The Prisoner’s Dilemma (never heard of it - look it up - an good example was MAD) applies to the Israeli/Palestinian troubles in that both groups are actually behaving rationally individually from their own viewpoints and the result is a continuing collective disaster because as a group the behaviour is actually completely irrational and stupid. It is a fallacy that these two groups are behaving irrationally (stupidly) because the individuals in the two opposing groups are behaving stupidly. Internal coersion (religion, morality and brotherly love) has not been able to drive the two peoples to develop a mutually acceptable solution to end the problems. This means that the ONLY way a resolution to the conflict will ever be reached will be if a powerful body (or collection of bodies) with the means to enforce the resolution tells both sides to get along OR ELSE and that both sides know that the intervening body MEANS BUSINESS and the result of not complying is too terrible for them (on both sides) to contemplate. The penalty for non-compliance I’ll leave to your own vivid imagination. I would suggest that a coalition comprising powerful military and police elements provided by the USA, Russia, Pakestan (despite it’s warts) and China would be logical coersive peacekeepers in this instance who would necessarily be under the military control of and answerable directly to the UN security council (since we have nothing better available) and the international court of justice. It’s time that the dog stopped the tail from wagging it. ASIS interview - just got home (was going to stay overnignt but couldn't see the point - Canberra is a dump and dead on Tuesday nights) - what a bunch of wankers - I walked out before before the interview was complete - was clear that they were not interested in independent thinkers and they refused to recognise my already substantial experience (ie the money on offer was rat-shit and not worth my bother). Nor was at all interested in working overseas for months at a time and away from the family. Proton - maybe it's a job that would suit you - your politics is right for them too. Doc: I didn't say it would be easy. However it is possible when a smart approach is used (ie mass tranquilisation by way of dispersed vapours or gases, or using darts , or using Tasors or something similar to disable or immobile opposing forces - I know for a fact the Brits and USA and ADF are actively researching even more effective mass action non-lethal weapons). It was done regularly in WWII in both theatres - however quiet dead force was the preferred modus operandi then in the times of total war. |
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because the solution seems so stupidly simple yet we can't attain it.


2:12 PM Jul 11