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Another extrajudicial killing by the IDF; Another to come ?
Topic Started: Apr 17 2004, 10:19 PM (1,826 Views)
Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
somerled
Apr 18 2004, 06:30 AM
Dwayne:

ead my lips dummy -
Quote:
 
It was, to paraphrase someone else
QUOTE 
unlawful, unjustified and counterproductive

ie a war crime.
no matter how it's done.

As the War on Terror - OK - it's a bit like the War on Drugs - more an idea than anything else in that has the potential to keep the current incombent in the Whitehouse in his job and it gives dills like you a focus and someone to hate.

And that's bullsh!t.

No where does it state in the Geneva Conventions that the military leaders are off limits.
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Yo-Yo
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Captain
I'm sorry i missed this thread.

Quote:
 
If we kill a leader, dosen't he become a martyr, a cause to rally behind?


Yes he does but they are quickly forgotten and only come up now and them. Yassin is a good example. There was a huge outcry for blood but relative quiet with little extreme attacks. Thats because Hamas followers are confused and
scared and enraged - i.e. disorganized. And they new leader is spending time finding a whole because he knows he is next. Also a dead terrorist may create an outcry but a terrorist in jail lasts much longer and promotes hostages along with killings. When in jail movement are created lobbying for his release which promotes more terrorism.

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Like I said before - arrest the man and allow due process. What I am opposed to is extra-judicial or non-combat killing. There is only one word for these - murder.


Quote:
 
Once incarcerated and in maximum security prison (assuming found guilty by the law of the land or in some international court) , why should they ever be released ?



Refer to the quote above and also....

1) Do you know how many Israeli lives would be lost if they tried to waltz in with soldiers to arrest him?! Are you crazy? Urban warfare is one of the deadliest forms of combat and every window of Gaza cities can be bristling with AK-47's and RPGs. In 2001, instead of carpet bombing towns to killing terrorist, the IDF sent men in to do house to house searches for weapons caches and terrorists. Thats how 14 IDF specials forces got slaughtered when they walked into a urban trap. I know alot about this my Rabbi in my last year of high school was and exchange Rabbi from Israel and those 14 dead were soldiers from the unit he commanded, he flew back to Israel for the funerals. That is why surgical missle strikes are used by the IDF. Its to dangeous to go in and get him, and too heartless to bomb a city block.

2) Like said before terrorists in jail just cause more problems. If you dont know your history then i hope you know your current events. in the middle of last year Israel negotiated the release of 400 terrorists for the release of one Israeli business man and three DEAD Israeli soldiers. Some of which was responsible for Dolphinarium bombing which killed tens of teens, and when he got home he was celebrated as a hero that boosted terrorist moral. Boy its suuuuuurre looks like jailing terrorist pays off! :banghead:

Bye the way, this system has been going on for a while, and let me tell it works! The west bank used to be teeming with Hamas some years ago when the IDF began assasinating its leadership. Now the WB is pretty much clean of Hamas. the Gaza is more difficult simply because of the much much denser population. :shrug:
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Yo-Yo, you should also check out Somerled's comments in the thread Death of Hamas Leader

Talking to him really is like :banghead:
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
Somerland, Hamas is not a legitimate military organization, so perhaps the argument that killing their leaders is just like war between armies will not hold. However, it is PERFECTLY LEGAL to respond to civilian attacks with equal force. Given this, and given Hamas' previous actions, Israel is perfectly in the clear to use their MILITARY to take out hostile civilian targets that have in the past killed Israeli civilians and soldiers.

Somerland, I want you to answer me something. It is a simple question that has two possible answers. Would you rather see a terrorist and a criminal killed with minimal civilian casualties (only Rantisi and his bodyguards were killed BTW), or would you rather see a ground force go into the city to arrest the man with a high liklihood of provoking the population into violence and the possibility of a large scale firefight in which the loss of life would be much greater? Could you think of another way they could get to him? A sniper, while able to kill Rantisi without killing anybody else, would probably not escape alive.

So what are the alternatives?

Adrian- while it may be that prisoners are a possible source of intelligence, one must weigh in the risks and benefits of taking the person prisoner vs, killing them. Would the loss of life for both Palistinians and Israelis be worth the information gathered? Given the fact that these suicide attacks are easy to set up, it would be simple for Hamas leadership to change their targets.
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Intrepid2002
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UNGH!
Minuet
Apr 18 2004, 09:17 AM
Intrepid2002 I would like to direct you to one paragraph in your link

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The August 88 Charter declared that all Palestine is Islamic trust land, can never be surrendered to non-Muslims and  is an integral part of Muslim world. It cites the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion as legitimate documents, declares that negotiations and international conferences are a waste of time, and blames 'Zionists' for the French and Russian revolutions.



This is what Israel is dealing with. Hamas does not want to negotiate. They want to murder.

Here is a little bit of information about Rantisi

Hamas' Master of Hatred

Just so you know, this headline was printed by a newspaper known for it's liberal views, and which has been critisized by the Jewish community in Toronto for it's pro Palestinan stance.

a quote from the article.

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Rantisi rejected any accommodation with Israel, following strict Hamas ideology that called for destruction of the Jewish state in the Middle East.


A quote from Rantisi

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"I swear we will not leave one Jew in Palestine."


Tell me, how do you negotiate with these types of people? That is why Israel is eliminating them. Hopefully, once these extremists are gone, they will be able to negotiate with those who truely seek peace.

I read the WHOLE thing thus the :banghead:

I don't defend or condone the actions of HAMAS. I just feel uncomfortable saying someone "deserves" to die. I'm a emergency room nurse, I see it all the time and I see no dignity in death when a life is ended uselessly. IMHO, when HAMAS and it's leaders make statements such as those quoted, they are asking for it. It just so happens they're asking it from one of the best armies in the world, Israel's.

I just don't see a solution to this because each death will just feed another death. They will kill each other until there is one man standing and even that person will have a bomb tied around his neck or wrapped around his body. Who knows what their tolerance level for pain is. They feed on the hate they've created for each other. You can wrap your mind around the situation between Israel and the Palestinians and you'll just :shrug: because the solution seems so stupidly simple
yet we can't attain it.

Hopefully, thousands of lives don't have to be wasted before they finally reach their saturation point and finally decide they want peace. If ya ask me, it's probably a bad case of ego. You can pick every leader off and there will be a replacement every time. We need to keep negotiating the peace albeit with a big stick.

But that's just my opinion. :)
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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
Quote:
 
I just don't see a solution to this because each death will just feed another death. They will kill each other until there is one man standing and even that person will have a bomb tied around his neck or wrapped around his body.  Who knows what their tolerance level for pain is.  They feed on the hate they've created for each other.  You can wrap your mind around the situation between Israel and the Palestinians and you'll just  :shrug: because the solution seems so stupidly simple yet we can't attain it.

Everyone dies, all life leads to death, so the issue of the dead is a moot point.

It will never go until the point where two men are left standing - Jews will either be driven from the region or Muslims will finally capitulate and allow Jews to remain.

It really is that simple.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Well - I'm in good company Killing of Hamas leader condemned (by every one except the USA)

It's everyone else who is :banghead: .

Quote:
 
In Washington, US national security adviser Condoleezza Rice avoided joining the international condemnation of the assassination, while insisting Washington knew nothing of Israel's plans.
B-S! That woman couldn't even lie straight in bed.

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Minuet
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Intrepid2002
Apr 18 2004, 09:16 PM
I don't defend or condone the actions of HAMAS. I just feel uncomfortable saying someone "deserves" to die. I'm a emergency room nurse, I see it all the time and I see no dignity in death when a life is ended uselessly. IMHO, when HAMAS and it's leaders make statements such as those quoted, they are asking for it. It just so happens they're asking it from one of the best armies in the world, Israel's.


Just to clarify, I understand your statement that you are uncomfortable saying someone deserves to die, and I agree with it.

I just feel that if it is going to be Rantisi or a busload of Israeli children, I would rather it be Rantisi.

If these people would just change thier charter to include Israel's right to exist and then come and negotiate in good faith then the killing on both sides could stop. Israel does not want to kill Arabs. If that was what they wanted they could have nuked the Palestinians out of existence long ago. They only want to defend thier borders, and they have every right to do so.
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
So what are you saying somerland? Should we just leave Hamas leaders alone and assume they will take the hint and live happily side by side with Israel? These are people that have masterminded countless suicide attacks. They are guilty of not only killing Israelis, but of killing their own people by strapping bombs to them.

The Isrealis can't just start sending troops into Palestine to arrest these people as they usually have small armies of bodyguards. Instead, they have chosen the path of least resistance and destroyed this murderer in a way that did not harm innocent civilians. Perhaps by doing this the plans of Hamas will be disrupted. Perhaps it will be for a day, perhaps for months, but in any case that is one more day, month, or year that innocent people are not blown up.

So I guess you just have to ask yourself, is the life of one evil man worth the loss of life of the civilians that are killed by his orders? Somehow I doubt you will respond to this as you seem to just ignore me when I bring up these questions. But perhaps it will at least make you think.
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Adrian
Lieutenant Commander
Doctortobe,
You bring up an excellent point. Like many things, we must choose the lesser of two evils. There are very few black and white issues and many times we are forced to take a grey area.
Right now, however, I feel that the passions are running too high and I think both sides are taking assasination and suicide attacks as knee jerk reactions, heedless of the cost.
As to Israeli soldiers, I have found one link which gives fairly recent figures. Israelis face most of their danger from the suicide attacks (this would be expected). But very few casualties come catagories that the armored raids the have been performing. In other words, armoured Iraeli raids on targets (as in an arrest raid) are relatively safe (this does make sense as the Palestnians have few weapons that could, say take out a modern tank).
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Adrian, first, I can't open your link. Second I don't really need to because I think you missed part of Doctortobe's point. It is not the Israeli soldiers that would get killed in an armed raid. It is the civilians that these "leaders" surround themselves with that get harmed. The missile was very tightly targeted and took out Rantisi's car with only 3 lives lost total. An armed invasion would possibly have brought hundreds of PALESTINIANS out on the streets and many of these PALESTINIANS could have been hurt or killed.

As I stated earlier - if the Israeli's wanted to murder Arabs they have the means. This is simply not what they want. All they want is secure borders and peace.
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Minuet
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doctortobe
Apr 18 2004, 11:16 PM
Somehow I doubt you will respond to this as you seem to just ignore me when I bring up these questions. But perhaps it will at least make you think.

:lol: :lol:

Somerled won't respond to you because he knows that as a trainee in the US army you actually are learning the facts of armed combat. He doesn't want to hear facts. It's so much easier to get pumped up over propaganda.
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Intrepid2002
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UNGH!
Dwayne
Apr 18 2004, 12:46 AM
As far as I'm concerned, somerled is a modern day incarnation of Tokyo Rose.

:rotfl:

If that statement wasn't so funny, it would be insulting....

geeeezzzus oh man, state an opinion out of the BOX and you're deemed a traiterous *bleep*

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Intrepid2002
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UNGH!
Minuet
Apr 18 2004, 10:09 PM
Intrepid2002
Apr 18 2004, 09:16 PM
I don't defend or condone the actions of HAMAS.  I just feel uncomfortable saying someone "deserves" to die.  I'm a emergency room nurse, I see it all the time and I see no dignity in death when a life is ended uselessly.  IMHO, when HAMAS and it's leaders make statements such as those quoted, they are asking for it.  It just so happens they're asking it from one of the best armies in the world, Israel's.


Just to clarify, I understand your statement that you are uncomfortable saying someone deserves to die, and I agree with it.

I just feel that if it is going to be Rantisi or a busload of Israeli children, I would rather it be Rantisi.

If these people would just change thier charter to include Israel's right to exist and then come and negotiate in good faith then the killing on both sides could stop. Israel does not want to kill Arabs. If that was what they wanted they could have nuked the Palestinians out of existence long ago. They only want to defend thier borders, and they have every right to do so.

I agree! :D

Now if only the people in the middle east would eh? ;)

They should let women do some decision making over there......
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Minuet
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Intrepid2002
Apr 19 2004, 01:21 PM
Dwayne
Apr 18 2004, 12:46 AM
As far as I'm concerned, somerled is a modern day incarnation of Tokyo Rose.

:rotfl:

If that statement wasn't so funny, it would be insulting....

geeeezzzus oh man, state an opinion out of the BOX and you're deemed a traiterous *bleep*

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Intrepid, stick around awhile and you will see why so many people are on Somerled's back. His opinions are more then "out of the box".

BTW he is Australian, so you can't really consider him a traitor to the U.S. He is just plain anti-American. And you are hearing this comment from a Canadian.
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