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| Another extrajudicial killing by the IDF; Another to come ? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 17 2004, 10:19 PM (1,826 Views) | |
| Dwayne | Apr 18 2004, 01:39 PM Post #31 |
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Profanity deleted by Hoss
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And that's bullsh!t. No where does it state in the Geneva Conventions that the military leaders are off limits. |
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| Yo-Yo | Apr 18 2004, 04:49 PM Post #32 |
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Captain
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I'm sorry i missed this thread.
Yes he does but they are quickly forgotten and only come up now and them. Yassin is a good example. There was a huge outcry for blood but relative quiet with little extreme attacks. Thats because Hamas followers are confused and scared and enraged - i.e. disorganized. And they new leader is spending time finding a whole because he knows he is next. Also a dead terrorist may create an outcry but a terrorist in jail lasts much longer and promotes hostages along with killings. When in jail movement are created lobbying for his release which promotes more terrorism.
Refer to the quote above and also.... 1) Do you know how many Israeli lives would be lost if they tried to waltz in with soldiers to arrest him?! Are you crazy? Urban warfare is one of the deadliest forms of combat and every window of Gaza cities can be bristling with AK-47's and RPGs. In 2001, instead of carpet bombing towns to killing terrorist, the IDF sent men in to do house to house searches for weapons caches and terrorists. Thats how 14 IDF specials forces got slaughtered when they walked into a urban trap. I know alot about this my Rabbi in my last year of high school was and exchange Rabbi from Israel and those 14 dead were soldiers from the unit he commanded, he flew back to Israel for the funerals. That is why surgical missle strikes are used by the IDF. Its to dangeous to go in and get him, and too heartless to bomb a city block. 2) Like said before terrorists in jail just cause more problems. If you dont know your history then i hope you know your current events. in the middle of last year Israel negotiated the release of 400 terrorists for the release of one Israeli business man and three DEAD Israeli soldiers. Some of which was responsible for Dolphinarium bombing which killed tens of teens, and when he got home he was celebrated as a hero that boosted terrorist moral. Boy its suuuuuurre looks like jailing terrorist pays off! Bye the way, this system has been going on for a while, and let me tell it works! The west bank used to be teeming with Hamas some years ago when the IDF began assasinating its leadership. Now the WB is pretty much clean of Hamas. the Gaza is more difficult simply because of the much much denser population.
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| Minuet | Apr 18 2004, 06:09 PM Post #33 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Yo-Yo, you should also check out Somerled's comments in the thread Death of Hamas Leader Talking to him really is like
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| doctortobe | Apr 18 2004, 06:52 PM Post #34 |
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Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
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Somerland, Hamas is not a legitimate military organization, so perhaps the argument that killing their leaders is just like war between armies will not hold. However, it is PERFECTLY LEGAL to respond to civilian attacks with equal force. Given this, and given Hamas' previous actions, Israel is perfectly in the clear to use their MILITARY to take out hostile civilian targets that have in the past killed Israeli civilians and soldiers. Somerland, I want you to answer me something. It is a simple question that has two possible answers. Would you rather see a terrorist and a criminal killed with minimal civilian casualties (only Rantisi and his bodyguards were killed BTW), or would you rather see a ground force go into the city to arrest the man with a high liklihood of provoking the population into violence and the possibility of a large scale firefight in which the loss of life would be much greater? Could you think of another way they could get to him? A sniper, while able to kill Rantisi without killing anybody else, would probably not escape alive. So what are the alternatives? Adrian- while it may be that prisoners are a possible source of intelligence, one must weigh in the risks and benefits of taking the person prisoner vs, killing them. Would the loss of life for both Palistinians and Israelis be worth the information gathered? Given the fact that these suicide attacks are easy to set up, it would be simple for Hamas leadership to change their targets. |
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| Intrepid2002 | Apr 18 2004, 08:16 PM Post #35 |
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UNGH!
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I read the WHOLE thing thus the I don't defend or condone the actions of HAMAS. I just feel uncomfortable saying someone "deserves" to die. I'm a emergency room nurse, I see it all the time and I see no dignity in death when a life is ended uselessly. IMHO, when HAMAS and it's leaders make statements such as those quoted, they are asking for it. It just so happens they're asking it from one of the best armies in the world, Israel's. I just don't see a solution to this because each death will just feed another death. They will kill each other until there is one man standing and even that person will have a bomb tied around his neck or wrapped around his body. Who knows what their tolerance level for pain is. They feed on the hate they've created for each other. You can wrap your mind around the situation between Israel and the Palestinians and you'll just because the solution seems so stupidly simpleyet we can't attain it. Hopefully, thousands of lives don't have to be wasted before they finally reach their saturation point and finally decide they want peace. If ya ask me, it's probably a bad case of ego. You can pick every leader off and there will be a replacement every time. We need to keep negotiating the peace albeit with a big stick. But that's just my opinion.
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| Dwayne | Apr 18 2004, 09:38 PM Post #36 |
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Profanity deleted by Hoss
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Everyone dies, all life leads to death, so the issue of the dead is a moot point. It will never go until the point where two men are left standing - Jews will either be driven from the region or Muslims will finally capitulate and allow Jews to remain. It really is that simple. |
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| somerled | Apr 18 2004, 09:50 PM Post #37 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Well - I'm in good company Killing of Hamas leader condemned (by every one except the USA) It's everyone else who is .B-S! That woman couldn't even lie straight in bed. |
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| Minuet | Apr 18 2004, 10:09 PM Post #38 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Just to clarify, I understand your statement that you are uncomfortable saying someone deserves to die, and I agree with it. I just feel that if it is going to be Rantisi or a busload of Israeli children, I would rather it be Rantisi. If these people would just change thier charter to include Israel's right to exist and then come and negotiate in good faith then the killing on both sides could stop. Israel does not want to kill Arabs. If that was what they wanted they could have nuked the Palestinians out of existence long ago. They only want to defend thier borders, and they have every right to do so. |
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| doctortobe | Apr 18 2004, 10:16 PM Post #39 |
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Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
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So what are you saying somerland? Should we just leave Hamas leaders alone and assume they will take the hint and live happily side by side with Israel? These are people that have masterminded countless suicide attacks. They are guilty of not only killing Israelis, but of killing their own people by strapping bombs to them. The Isrealis can't just start sending troops into Palestine to arrest these people as they usually have small armies of bodyguards. Instead, they have chosen the path of least resistance and destroyed this murderer in a way that did not harm innocent civilians. Perhaps by doing this the plans of Hamas will be disrupted. Perhaps it will be for a day, perhaps for months, but in any case that is one more day, month, or year that innocent people are not blown up. So I guess you just have to ask yourself, is the life of one evil man worth the loss of life of the civilians that are killed by his orders? Somehow I doubt you will respond to this as you seem to just ignore me when I bring up these questions. But perhaps it will at least make you think. |
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| Adrian | Apr 18 2004, 11:35 PM Post #40 |
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Lieutenant Commander
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Doctortobe, You bring up an excellent point. Like many things, we must choose the lesser of two evils. There are very few black and white issues and many times we are forced to take a grey area. Right now, however, I feel that the passions are running too high and I think both sides are taking assasination and suicide attacks as knee jerk reactions, heedless of the cost. As to Israeli soldiers, I have found one link which gives fairly recent figures. Israelis face most of their danger from the suicide attacks (this would be expected). But very few casualties come catagories that the armored raids the have been performing. In other words, armoured Iraeli raids on targets (as in an arrest raid) are relatively safe (this does make sense as the Palestnians have few weapons that could, say take out a modern tank). |
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| Minuet | Apr 19 2004, 08:42 AM Post #41 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Adrian, first, I can't open your link. Second I don't really need to because I think you missed part of Doctortobe's point. It is not the Israeli soldiers that would get killed in an armed raid. It is the civilians that these "leaders" surround themselves with that get harmed. The missile was very tightly targeted and took out Rantisi's car with only 3 lives lost total. An armed invasion would possibly have brought hundreds of PALESTINIANS out on the streets and many of these PALESTINIANS could have been hurt or killed. As I stated earlier - if the Israeli's wanted to murder Arabs they have the means. This is simply not what they want. All they want is secure borders and peace. |
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| Minuet | Apr 19 2004, 08:46 AM Post #42 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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:lol: :lol: Somerled won't respond to you because he knows that as a trainee in the US army you actually are learning the facts of armed combat. He doesn't want to hear facts. It's so much easier to get pumped up over propaganda. |
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| Intrepid2002 | Apr 19 2004, 12:21 PM Post #43 |
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UNGH!
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If that statement wasn't so funny, it would be insulting.... geeeezzzus oh man, state an opinion out of the BOX and you're deemed a traiterous *bleep*
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| Intrepid2002 | Apr 19 2004, 12:23 PM Post #44 |
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UNGH!
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I agree! Now if only the people in the middle east would eh? They should let women do some decision making over there...... |
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| Minuet | Apr 19 2004, 01:50 PM Post #45 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Intrepid, stick around awhile and you will see why so many people are on Somerled's back. His opinions are more then "out of the box". BTW he is Australian, so you can't really consider him a traitor to the U.S. He is just plain anti-American. And you are hearing this comment from a Canadian. |
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