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Another extrajudicial killing by the IDF; Another to come ?
Topic Started: Apr 17 2004, 10:19 PM (1,827 Views)
Adrian
Lieutenant Commander
Actually, I've noticed what's much more likely is the bad guys take hostages that they try to trade. Blowing up places just makes it less likely to get the revered leader back.
Blowing up people is great in their eyes; a few bucks of explosives and one believer leads to scores dead and a martyr. It's glamourous Holy War!
It's up to the government if they want to negotiate fro the release of hostages, but hostages are a drain on terrorist organizations resources. Kidnapping people means you have to take your soldier out of the loop to feed and watch your victem (not to mention the money it cost to keep these guys).
Also, how good is the propaganda from a kidnapping?! Where's the glory in saying: "We're going to make a deal with our enemies!". Mohammed didn't take hostages! They look more like what they are: criminals.
I know it's a matter of degrees, but I would think less people end up dead.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Ok strike kidnapping. Have your suicide bomber blow up a market place. Then say "If you do not release our leader we will blow up another market place". No drained - only a few bucks in explosives, one died brainwashed fanatic. It all adds up and still spells out what I was trying to say.


And then what? does the Israel government let the leader go, or do they say no? If they say no, then the terrorist have to go blow up something else to prove them mean business. If they say yes the then the leader is back on the street - defeating the whole reason in capturing him in the first place.

Again some times its just cleaner to take him out



Quote:
 
I know it's a matter of degrees, but I would think less people end up dead.
why would you think this?
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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
somerled
Apr 18 2004, 01:15 AM
Dwayne :
What the F*** are you talking about ?

Since when is being opposed to assassinations (state or politically sponsored murder) foolish.

America is in a War on Terrorism and Hamas is one of the terrorist organizations we're at war with!

This is no different than shooting a general or some other high ranked officer!

They've made themselves the target by giving the order to kill others!

Get a friggen clue man!
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Dwayne:

ead my lips dummy -
Quote:
 
It was, to paraphrase someone else
QUOTE 
unlawful, unjustified and counterproductive

ie a war crime.
no matter how it's done.

As the War on Terror - OK - it's a bit like the War on Drugs - more an idea than anything else in that has the potential to keep the current incombent in the Whitehouse in his job and it gives dills like you a focus and someone to hate.
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Intrepid2002
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UNGH!
somerled
Apr 17 2004, 11:41 PM
Like I said before - arrest the man and allow due process. What I am opposed to is extra-judicial or non-combat killing. There is only one word for these - murder.

Using terrorist attacks (and this was state sanctioned terrorism) gets them nowhere.

I tend to agree with you. Now that there's a war on "Terrorism", RAntisi's assasination can now be considered "legalized" murder or an acceptable casualty of war. IMHO, I don't see an end to this conflict because each death just feeds another. The biggest guns, bombs, bruts, won't stop this conflict until both sides have reached their saturation point and are willing to come to the table or they keep killing each other until there is only one man standing. I'm sorry to see a serious attempt at diplomacy has taken a back seat to all of this.

Take a peek at this http://www.mideastweb.org/palestianparties.htm#Hamas and read the part about how HAMAS was started. Sometimes you just want to :banghead:

But that's up to us to read more.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Adrian
Apr 18 2004, 04:06 AM
Actually, I've noticed what's much more likely is the bad guys take hostages that they try to trade. Blowing up places just makes it less likely to get the revered leader back.
Blowing up people is great in their eyes; a few bucks of explosives and one believer leads to scores dead and a martyr. It's glamourous Holy War!
It's up to the government if they want to negotiate fro the release of hostages, but hostages are a drain on terrorist organizations resources. Kidnapping people means you have to take your soldier out of the loop to feed and watch your victem (not to mention the money it cost to keep these guys).
Also, how good is the propaganda from a kidnapping?! Where's the glory in saying: "We're going to make a deal with our enemies!". Mohammed didn't take hostages! They look more like what they are: criminals.
I know it's a matter of degrees, but I would think less people end up dead.

So what you are essentially saying is that arresting the leaders is useless, because the terrrorists will just take hostages (or blow up a marketplace - it really doesn't matter which scenario they choose) and they will force the release of those arrested.

And what does that accomplish. Oh yeah, it puts murderers back on the street to murder more.

Did you know that Sheik Yasin spent some time in jail. He was released in a "prisoner" exchange. He went right back to planning the murders of innocent children.

Yeah, arresting terrorists really works.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Intrepid2002 I would like to direct you to one paragraph in your link

Quote:
 
The August 88 Charter declared that all Palestine is Islamic trust land, can never be surrendered to non-Muslims and  is an integral part of Muslim world. It cites the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion as legitimate documents, declares that negotiations and international conferences are a waste of time, and blames 'Zionists' for the French and Russian revolutions.



This is what Israel is dealing with. Hamas does not want to negotiate. They want to murder.

Here is a little bit of information about Rantisi

Hamas' Master of Hatred

Just so you know, this headline was printed by a newspaper known for it's liberal views, and which has been critisized by the Jewish community in Toronto for it's pro Palestinan stance.

a quote from the article.

Quote:
 
Rantisi rejected any accommodation with Israel, following strict Hamas ideology that called for destruction of the Jewish state in the Middle East.


A quote from Rantisi

Quote:
 
"I swear we will not leave one Jew in Palestine."


Tell me, how do you negotiate with these types of people? That is why Israel is eliminating them. Hopefully, once these extremists are gone, they will be able to negotiate with those who truely seek peace.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet :
Once incarcerated and in maximum security prison (assuming found guilty by the law of the land or in some international court) , why should they ever be released ?
ie they could be sentenced to imprisonment for the term of his/her natural life with no possibility of parole (ever) or ever to be allowed to be spoken to by visitors once all appeals are exhausted - there are precidents for this sentence (even recently in Australia).

Killing these people rather than arresting them and interrogating them is pointless. All that intelligence about Hamas (in this case) lost to the IDF - stupidity.

Irrespective of the views of some hardliners (who's views (propaganda) do not represent the collective views of their people - on both sides I might add).
The hardliners (on both sides must be sidelined (or even disenfranchised for the greater good) and not allowed to act as constantly opposing obstacles to a settlement of the conflict. Make them irrelevant.

On the matter of negotiating - a way must be found - else this conflict will likely last for another 50 years or longer - it's as simple as that.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Please read Adrian's and Dandandat's comments again.

Arresting them does not help - It only leads to more death as thier "followers" attempt to gain thier release.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
I did and I believe their presumptions and assumptions are not entirely valid. (ie the prisoners held by the USA in Cuba is an example of a case that proves them incorrect and the USA knows or at least knew it, else they would have sumarily executed them all on the spot.)

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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
^^^Once again you show your complete lack of historical knowledge of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

How the hell do you think Yasin got out of jail????????????

Unlike you I am not making this stuff up as I go.
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Adrian
Lieutenant Commander
Minuet, I agree they probably shouldn't have released Yasin. It would be hard to argue that they got something of comperable value back.
I did want to point out one thing with prisoners that also makes them more useful that dead terrorists- intelligence. Each time these guys are taken inthey tell what they know (I once had an aquantance who was an Army interrogator and she was very confident that everyone talks).
That means everytime you take in a bad guy, they spill their guts and we learn more about the enemy (sort of like a terrorism update).

Hamas announced today that while they did choose a new leader, they're keeping his name secret so that no one will know who he is.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Adrian
Apr 18 2004, 11:51 AM
Hamas announced today that while they did choose a new leader, they're keeping his name secret so that no one will know who he is.

Looks like they are starting to run scared.

Just shows what a coward the new leader is. Protecting himself while having no problem sending teenagers to thier deaths with bombs strapped to thier backs.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
somerled
Apr 18 2004, 07:30 AM
As the War on Terror - OK - it's a bit like the War on Drugs - more an idea than anything else in that has the potential to keep the current incombent in the Whitehouse in his job and it gives dills like you a focus and someone to hate.

No - its an actual war fought in the traditional twenty first century style. But as long as people like you keep equating this to normal crime we will never win it. I hope you have as much confidence in your words when you are watching your grandchildren go off to a "real war" because you helped obstruct this chapter of history.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
somerled
Apr 18 2004, 11:06 AM
(ie the prisoners held by the USA in Cuba is an example of a case that proves them incorrect and the USA knows or at least knew it, else they would have sumarily executed them all on the spot.)

What are you freaking kidding me? are you saying that the only reason the us didn’t kill them on the spot was so that they could avoid retaliation? As in if retaliation was not a problem they would have killed then all? How blood trusty do you take us Americans for. Get your head out of the sand my friend.


Its way to dynamic for any one to say that Prison is always the best choice, or that assignation is the best choice. Each and every case or desertion to go one way or the other must be looked at in its individual nature. This must be weight against that, what will be the representation of going one way or the other. Just because imprison some people in a place half way around the world worked out for the USA this time does not at all mean it would work for the Israeli’s. Any one who sees in such black and white in my opinion is automatically wrong. Monday morning quarterbacking is fun in the office but its just not real or accurate.
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