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| Soldiers in Iraq aren't Heroes?; Andy Rooney Opines... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 12 2004, 07:04 PM (844 Views) | |
| 24thcenstfan | Apr 13 2004, 09:33 AM Post #16 |
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
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No, I don’t think he is saying that at all. I believe he is saying we shouldn’t idolize them all as heroes because in his opinion not all of them are (he stated various reasons why). I disagree with most of his reasoning, but do agree that not all of our soldiers in Iraq are heroes. I believe the term hero is a special term to be used only when a soldier performs above and beyond. |
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| Dandandat | Apr 13 2004, 10:05 AM Post #17 |
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Time to put something here
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So what term should we use for them, sure not all of them have rescued the kitten form the tree. But all of them are doing a hell of a lot more then we are sitting on our asses talking on the computer. Hero seems to be the closet word we do have and so it is used. |
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| 24thcenstfan | Apr 13 2004, 10:33 AM Post #18 |
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
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I call them soldiers…they are doing their job. When someone does something extraordinary compared to the actions of their fellow soldiers (how you determine this is subjective), then they should rightly be called a hero. Because I don't designate the collective whole as heroes, it doesn't mean their individual actions aren't great or very much appreciated. I think you hit on something key. I do think there should be another term to describe the soldiers. One that doesn’t take away from the deeds that they perform on a daily basis, but sets those soldiers who perform an extraordinary deed a part (a hero). I also think the term hero has become so broad and synonymous with general soldiering duty (especially in time of war), that another term for someone who performs extraordinarily may be called for. Because even I have a tendency to want to call all of our soldiers in Iraq heroes...even though by definition all are not. |
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| Minuet | Apr 13 2004, 11:07 AM Post #19 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Overuse of a word tends to water down the actual meaning. Maybe this is what has happened to the word "hero" It has been overused not just in connection to soldiers, but also in our daily lives. Look in a newspaper and see how many times the word is overused. 24 is right. This is a description that should be saved for a select few extraordinary people. |
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| somerled | Apr 13 2004, 12:32 PM Post #20 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Minuet : The situation in Iraq is not as it was in (say) the european theatre in WWII where tanks were free to use their big guns and mass to demolish buildings occupants and all, and airpower was allowed to destroy entire cities. (Total warfare.) The world would not tolerate this. The commanders in Iraq are operating under certain rules of engagement that hopefully minimize the impulse to blast away with their big guns and heavy machineguns, Nor are they free to demolish buildings (largely) at a whim though some I guess would like that freedom if could silence snipers. Thus the effectiveness of airpower and heavy armour in builtup areas is reduced considerably. Taking on bands of insurgents in builtup areas falls largely to the infantry and special forces who have do it the old fashioned way - house to house - which can be costly and time consuming. Whever of Adrian agrees with me is neither here or there, or relevant, unless he decides to make pertanent comments. 24C : I think you have hit it. |
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| Minuet | Apr 13 2004, 01:59 PM Post #21 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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^^^Somerled, maybe I am misunderstanding you but I am very confused at what you are trying to say. In your original comment I was under the impression that you were saying that the American forces in Iraq were not heros because they had huge tanks and equipment and were stronger then thier opponents. Now you seem to have switched gears and are saying that they are being forced to fight more hand to hand. This would certainly create some heros. I already agreed with 24 regarding the correct usage of the word hero. |
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| Admiralbill_gomec | Apr 13 2004, 03:24 PM Post #22 |
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UberAdmiral
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Andy Rooney is a classless, senile clown. |
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| doctortobe | Apr 13 2004, 04:28 PM Post #23 |
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Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
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Somerland, you obviously don't understand how well trained these soldiers are at urban warfare. Most of these Iraqi insurgents only know how to set their AK-47's on automatic and to "spray and pray". Our soldiers on the other hand actually AIM their weapons before shooting (except when initially laying down suppresive fire when the aim is to keep the enemies heads down). Not only that, but we know how to breach homes so that our chances of killing the enemy without being killed are maximized. You know the tactics that SWAT teams use to enter buildings? We use them too. To prove my point, one need only look at the 10:1 kill ratio we have maintained so far. |
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| 24thcenstfan | Apr 13 2004, 04:29 PM Post #24 |
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
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Is that your official position on the actual topic of the thread? Or is that an answer one gives when they didn’t read the linked opinion, or the rest of the thread? |
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| Admiralbill_gomec | Apr 13 2004, 05:42 PM Post #25 |
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UberAdmiral
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I had already read the Rooney article. Yes, that is my official position. In addition, Andy Rooney needs to retire. 24, do you want me to REALLY write what I think of Andy Rooney and his many moronic opinion pieces? I have friends and relatives "over there," so this is a sore point. |
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| Admiralbill_gomec | Apr 13 2004, 05:50 PM Post #26 |
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UberAdmiral
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It would be interesting to ask Andy Rooney THESE five questions: 1. Do you think your country did the right thing sending soldiers into Iraq? Why or why not? If you give talking points, I will have to keep your Xanax. 2. Do you understand what we are doing in Iraq, Mr. Rooney? Should we abandon yet another country, like we did in Vietnam? 3. Do you know that soldiers follow the orders handed down from their superiors? Do you remember serving in the army, Mr. Rooney? In touch or out of touch does not matter? Do you suggest that troops disobey their lawful orders, making them subject to Article 92 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice? 4. If you could have an objective opinion or a cookie, which would you take? 5. Why can't leftist whiners like yourself ever report some of the good things that go on in Iraq? |
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| 24thcenstfan | Apr 13 2004, 06:22 PM Post #27 |
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
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No, I REALLY don’t want you to write anything you are uncomfortable writing...especially if it is a sore point for you. |
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| somerled | Apr 13 2004, 11:48 PM Post #28 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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No Minuet . What I am saying is that as consequence of their rules of engagement they are limited in what they are allowed to do. This means that they are more likely to pull out or not follow through. I doubt this would make them heroic. Though the odd occasional instance of valour or real heroism might happen, but even in WWI and WWII these were exceedingly rare (and millions of soldiers were involved in these conflicts). Its all a matter of motivation. Doc: As to training of USA and Brit GI riflemen , I'm not in a position to comment except generally. I doubt they would generally be as well trained in urban combat technique as the SAS (Australian commando forces) as this takes specialised training. I would think the low rank GI's would generally just have to keep their heads down and muddle though as usual. The Brits are probably better experienced and trained in urban conflict as they have their recents experiences in "the troubles" to draw on. I will make one comment - don't underestimate the ability of those who are opposing them. But is this believeable ? It is not the first time that the USA has overstated it's successfulness in engagements. |
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| doctortobe | Apr 14 2004, 12:00 AM Post #29 |
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Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
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We don't, that's why we get those lovely 10:1 kill ratios. Did I mention that we kill 10 Iraqi insurgents for every American soldier lost? I just like to mention this because the news stations only seem to give the American death toll. |
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| captain_proton_au | Apr 14 2004, 02:19 AM Post #30 |
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A Robot in Disguise
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I dunno , I think anyone that serves in Combat should be labelled a hero, any one that risks a shorter life span to support thier country. As for calling all combat soldiers heroes, taking away from the best of the best - well thats what all the different medals are for, not everyone that is a hero in combat gets the CMH. I am probably too selfish to volunteer for any such action unless my home turf is under threat, so in my book, anyone that volunteeers to go into any war zone is a hero - even the likes of jessica lynch - she was a petite little thing that had far more to fear from enemy capture than a burely marine. Somerled: You really should put a buffer on your posts, give yourself time to think before clicking that add reply button, in this thread as in others you have shown yourself to change your story after realising you've said something stoopid. Disclaimer: In no way does Spongebath represent the majority of views held by Australians. Most support the war in Iraq and wsih to see a continuing effort. Any resemblance to Spongebath and other Aussies either living or dead is purely co-incidental, or limited to communes in Byron Bay, clueless TV actors, and vegetarian tree huggers. Proton has tried in vain to recruit other Aussies to this board, but alas. |
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