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Dont want to be like you
Topic Started: Apr 11 2004, 04:39 PM (216 Views)
ds9074
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Admiral
I was reading an article today and it was saying one of the biggest problems with the people driving US foreign policy at the moment, including President Bush, is they cannot get their head round this simple fact. Not everyone wants to live like Americans, and not everyone wants their country to be more like America. Those that dont are not nessasarily "bad" or "freedom haters". That rang true with me.
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Dwayne
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ds9074
Apr 11 2004, 04:39 PM
I was reading an article today and it was saying one of the biggest problems with the people driving US foreign policy at the moment, including President Bush, is they cannot get their head round this simple fact. Not everyone wants to live like Americans, and not everyone wants their country to be more like America. Those that dont are not nessasarily "bad" or "freedom haters". That rang true with me.

That's a pretty simplistic opinion on Pres. Bush's foriegn policy objectives ... unless you consider basic human rights and a one person-one vote philosophy something "more like Amerca", we're not trying to make other nations more like America.
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ds9074
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Dwayne
Apr 11 2004, 09:47 PM
ds9074
Apr 11 2004, 04:39 PM
I was reading an article today and it was saying one of the biggest problems with the people driving US foreign policy at the moment, including President Bush, is they cannot get their head round this simple fact. Not everyone wants to live like Americans, and not everyone wants their country to be more like America. Those that dont are not nessasarily "bad" or "freedom haters". That rang true with me.

That's a pretty simplistic opinion on Pres. Bush's foriegn policy objectives ... unless you consider basic human rights and a one person-one vote philosophy something "more like Amerca", we're not trying to make other nations more like America.

You see actually looking from the outside that is not how it seems. It does seem like Bush cannot grasp why anyone would not wish to be Americanised and in fact thank him for making it possible.

I'm not talking about human rights, I talking about an attitude which somehow seems prevelant.
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
Corporations are doing more to Americanize other countries then our government could ever do.
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Dwayne
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ds9074
Apr 11 2004, 04:50 PM
Dwayne
Apr 11 2004, 09:47 PM
ds9074
Apr 11 2004, 04:39 PM
I was reading an article today and it was saying one of the biggest problems with the people driving US foreign policy at the moment, including President Bush, is they cannot get their head round this simple fact. Not everyone wants to live like Americans, and not everyone wants their country to be more like America. Those that dont are not nessasarily "bad" or "freedom haters". That rang true with me.

That's a pretty simplistic opinion on Pres. Bush's foriegn policy objectives ... unless you consider basic human rights and a one person-one vote philosophy something "more like Amerca", we're not trying to make other nations more like America.

You see actually looking from the outside that is not how it seems. It does seem like Bush cannot grasp why anyone would not wish to be Americanised and in fact thank him for making it possible.

I'm not talking about human rights, I talking about an attitude which somehow seems prevelant.

Please cite some examples ... where has America demanded or opined that the rest of the world needs something like America's 2nd Amendment?

Where are the explicit statements by this administration that is the basis for this attitude?
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ds9074
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doctortobe
Apr 11 2004, 09:52 PM
Corporations are doing more to Americanize other countries then our government could ever do.

I agree that corporations are in many ways driving this and the US Government seems to be given them its full support. I'm saying that it rang true with me that there is somehow a disbelief that people would not want that.

I'm not going to go trawling for example, this was something which personally I could see some truth in. It the way the US economic model is held up as THE way to go for example. It the way US food, clothes, culture seem to be pushed so heavily. The way the US political system is seen as the best possible. Its a general attitude.
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Dwayne
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ds9074
Apr 11 2004, 04:57 PM
doctortobe
Apr 11 2004, 09:52 PM
Corporations are doing more to Americanize other countries then our government could ever do.

I agree that corporations are in many ways driving this and the US Government seems to be given them its full support. I'm saying that it rang true with me that there is somehow a disbelief that people would not want that.

I'm not going to go trawling for example, this was something which personally I could see some truth in. It the way the US economic model is held up as THE way to go for example. It the way US food, clothes, culture seem to be pushed so heavily. The way the US political system is seen as the best possible. Its a general attitude.

And how is the U.S. government giving U.S. companies it's full support to do this?

Or are you considering the U.S. government not dissuading these U.S. companies the same as full support?

I must note, it seems people on the other side of the pond often attempt to frame the debate on the basis of feelings and personal impression other than based on cold hard facts.

I like facts over feelings.
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ds9074
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Its supporting it through trade diplomacy and the pressure that a super power can apply. Yes my reaction is based on feelings and feelings are what very often lead to people taking action.

Lets take a side step to Iraq. Now there I think you have the classic example. From the way things have gone I get the strong impression that the US planners thought they would be welcomed with open arms as liberators. That the Iraqi people would aspire to be more like America and would welcome the chance. From what I have seen that has not been the case.
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
Well, how long ago was France the cultural center of the civilized world? All the latest designs used to come from France and some royal courts actually used the French language instead of their native language (Russia for example).

Could it be that America is only one in a line of countries that were the major cultural influence on the world? We are just taking our place next to Babylon, Egypt, Greece, Rome, and all the other major powers in history.
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ds9074
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Those civilisations were Empires, America claims not to be.
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Swidden
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Adm. Gadfly-at-large; Provisional wRench-fly at large
The reason that America can rightly claim not to be an Empire, at least in the sense that the examples offered by Doctortobe were in their time, is that those were more expansionistic minded. Even the British Empire qualified as such.

I would like to suggest that part of the American concept is rather in line with something Cmdr. Sisko says in DS9's "The Emissary". When he is conversing with the wormhole aliens on the baseball diamond and explains the Federation position about the exchange of ideals. Unfortunately, we are not so yet evolved as to easily recognize what is good and worth emulating in other nations/cultures to bring into our own. Maybe we're a bit more like the Federation at the time STVI:TUC. The scene at the state dinner with Chancellor Gorkon and his daughter points out the arrogance of Chekov's statement about "human rights", where she says the very term is racist.

We're clearly not perfect, but taking concepts and ideals that came out of English Common Law to the next level we do happen to think that what has worked here can, with some variation, be carried out elsewhere.
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ds9074
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I'm not saying all ideas from America are wrong. To do so would be hypocritical. I'm saying that to assume that other people of other nations will want to emulate you is wrong. Some do but a lot dont. They want to do things their own way. We might think they are making mistakes or that they could do it better but who are we cant make those choices.

I will also hold my hands up and say that Britain has done, and to a lesser extent is still doing exactly the same thing. Assuming we know best, that our ways are better. You mention English Common law. That might be appropriate for England and the USA. It might be appropriate elsewhere. But in some places they will have their own customs and laws which we should be very wary about dismissing.
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Swidden
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It might simply be that some of these do not really understand what it is we are trying to get them to adopt. Consider, that almost any country living under the thumb of dictatorial rule and the people have no real voice eventually finds itself rebelling against its dictator (I'm thinking of a line from a Who song- "Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss). By at least giving such the opportunity to exercise their voice through a democratic process, there is a chance that a cycle of violence can be reduced if not ended...

You're right to include your nation in this. It may sound like hubris to say it, but it is true...
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Dwayne
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ds9074
Apr 11 2004, 05:25 PM
Its supporting it through trade diplomacy and the pressure that a super power can apply. Yes my reaction is based on feelings and feelings are what very often lead to people taking action.

Lets take a side step to Iraq. Now there I think you have the classic example. From the way things have gone I get the strong impression that the US planners thought they would be welcomed with open arms as liberators. That the Iraqi people would aspire to be more like America and would welcome the chance. From what I have seen that has not been the case.

Pres. Bush tried to get other nations on board for Iraq, and has only dictated to the rest of the world that America would act regardless.

As for planning for the war, I was just talking about this with my significant other, and the thing that must be considered is that the popular preception was that it was going to take months for the US to take Baghdad, and that America could suffer many casualties.

As for being liberators or occupiers, isn't it possible to be both depending on the whose point of view you're asking?
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
I was not talking about empires from the standpoint of nations taking over other nations, I am talking about cultural empires. For example, though Britain was the ruler of the world in terms of military might, it was France that dictated what new fads the people would follow. America is a bit between France and Rome in this aspect. Like Rome, we have a large military that can take our viewpoint and drive it down your throat if need be. However, the majority of American influence is spread by the fact that we are a successful country in many ways and that countries that are like us have similar success.
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