Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Time to come clean
Topic Started: Apr 10 2004, 07:45 AM (873 Views)
Hoss
Member Avatar
Don't make me use my bare hands on you.
In a different thread there is the accusation that the US is trying to tell everybody how to run their government. Specifically, we think that everybody wants a government set up like ours.

But, in this thread it seems that the member from outside the US are not only criticizing the US governments and parties, but telling us what we ought to do.

It has long irritated me to hear accusations like this and the accusation that Americans are arrogant. The way I see it, there are other cultures or peoples in the world more arrogant and trying harder to make the rest of the world act as they do.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Intrepid2002
Member Avatar
UNGH!
Swidden
Apr 10 2004, 10:26 PM
Adrian
Apr 10 2004, 07:26 PM
I've always wondered how this happened.
Here in the US, the liberals are veiwed as the party of sin. More than once I've had people comment that they turned Christian, so they had to join the Republicans.
Sure, some of our supporters are from the Hollywood community, but that's because the Dems always supported free speech more than the Republicans. We never endorsed "wardrobe malfunctions" or questionable material.
On social issues the (modern) Dems suported minority rights, gay rghts, womens rights, and religious freedoms (among other social issues).
I never understood where this "party of sin" idea came from.

PS Howard Stern is registered Republican (last I heard).

Well, historically, Catholics have tended towards being Democrats. Apart from abortion and homosexuality the Church has been a frequent champion of Liberal social issues.

So let's imagine for a brief moment that as Americans we had to be either /or Republican or Democrat and had to adhere to the so called priniples of each party.
You'd have to be hardcore! What if you were a Rich Catholic Hispanic from California who was pro-life, extremely religious, thought tax cuts were a good thing and couldn't recognize a WMD if it were right in front of her? It would be unfair to label oneself as R or D.

A "Middle Party" would fit the bill and that most likely would be the majority party. We'd have a president in the white house every time and she'd be a woman! :o If I were that person described above, I wouldn't be comfortable being labeled as a conservative REpublican or being associated with most of who carry that party banner.

Call me ever so slightly left of center :shrug:

Who cares about labels anyway. Vote and support the person you think will do best for as all.

Too bad we can't find anyone with the charisma of Reagan, military records and courage of McCain and Kerry, the intelligence of Clinton (come on... give it to the man... not his emotional intelligence) the stature and humility of Colin Powell, the fire of Howard Dean, the sense of humor of Donald Rumsfeld and the business sense of Dick Cheney!
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Intrepid2002
Member Avatar
UNGH!
ds9074
Apr 11 2004, 06:29 PM
Personally I would like to see Kerry win but to be honest he isnt that inspiring. I think the Democrats could have done with an American Tony Blair. To see Blair v Bush debates on domestic issues would be a treat.

Kerry reminds me of a lanky Abraham Lincoln (appearance wise). Kerry SEEMS tall and thin and rather uninspiring when he speaks. No hell to the brimfire when he speaks. A lot of our presidential candidates and presidents could do so much more if they had the gift of oratory, don't you think?

Now imagine someone who could communicate like Martin Luther King or Ronald REagan!
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Wichita
Member Avatar
The Adminstrator wRench
^^

Or a Tony Blair ...
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
38957
Apr 12 2004, 08:29 AM
In a different thread there is the accusation that the US is trying to tell everybody how to run their government.  Specifically, we think that everybody wants a government set up like ours.

But, in this thread it seems that the member from outside the US are not only criticizing the US governments and parties, but telling us what we ought to do.

It has long irritated me to hear accusations like this and the accusation that Americans are arrogant.  The way I see it, there are other cultures or peoples in the world more arrogant and trying harder to make the rest of the world act as they do.

Go back and read everything I have written again.

I have not disparaged either of your political parties

I have not disparaged anyone who WANTS to belong to a political party.

I have questioned the use of the political parties, in non political situations IF the two stories listed are true.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Surok
Member Avatar
Ensign
Minuet
Apr 12 2004, 11:24 AM
38957
Apr 12 2004, 08:29 AM
In a different thread there is the accusation that the US is trying to tell everybody how to run their government.  Specifically, we think that everybody wants a government set up like ours.

But, in this thread it seems that the member from outside the US are not only criticizing the US governments and parties, but telling us what we ought to do.

It has long irritated me to hear accusations like this and the accusation that Americans are arrogant.  The way I see it, there are other cultures or peoples in the world more arrogant and trying harder to make the rest of the world act as they do.

Go back and read everything I have written again.

I have not disparaged either of your political parties

I have not disparaged anyone who WANTS to belong to a political party.

I have questioned the use of the political parties, in non political situations IF the two stories listed are true.

I can guarantee that the story about Nassau County (Long Island) is true; I cannot guarantee that it is universal. However party affiliation is considered important in many geographic areas - you need to be seen supporting the "right" side.

Long Island has been a republican stronghold for years, but even that is changing so the patronage situation may change as well.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
My story is true, just type in Republican, professor, and university on any search engine and read away.

While the conservatives may have a stronghold on the radio waves, the liberals have an iron grip on colleges.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Hoss
Member Avatar
Don't make me use my bare hands on you.
I didn't name names and I didn't say disparage (I said criticize). Disparage has a negative connotation. Criticize is more neutral.

Fortunately I armed myself with a fire extinguisher as soon as I posted that. :D

Really, people are quick to jump in and criticize the United States for any little thing that they here. And quick to point out how it ought to be and how great it is somewhere else. In some cases it probably is done better somewhere else, but should an American criticize somewhere else, it would be akin to declaring war (those ignorant, smug, arrogant Americans think they should tell everyone how to run their own country).

Just my observation. Americans can be and are often arrogant as well as ignorant, preachy, irritating, nosey, critical, pushy and down-right jerky, but we by no means have the market cornered on any of these qualities.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Dandandat
Member Avatar
Time to put something here
Surok
Apr 10 2004, 10:56 PM
For example, my brother lives in what was until recently Republican-dominated Nassau county and registered as a Republican even though he would never vote for one.  Why? He wanted a permit to make alterations on his house.  For his neighbor it was a promotion in a city/county/town civil service job.

It is made clear in certain areas that it is of benefit to belong to one party or the other.

Untrue, I have lived in Nassau county long island for 23-24 of my 26 years on this plant (and my whole famlye still lives there) and no where is it made clear that it is of benefit to belong to the republican party.

I have never heard any stories where someone got something extra for being republican except for municipal jobs where the person went and networked with the big dogs (but that would be true in environment). It just so happened that the big dogs where republican for a long time, so that’s who you had to network with. Now its the democats.

Never have a heard a story where some one had to register republican to make an alteration to there house. Did your bother try and was rejected before he registered republican? If so what was the reason they gave him for the rejection?

Sorry Surok but your example doesn’t hold water where I have lived.

Quote:
 
I can guarantee that the story about Nassau County (Long Island) is true; I cannot guarantee that it is universal. However party affiliation is considered important in many geographic areas - you need to be seen supporting the "right" side.
I can garnet otherwise form real life own person experience. What does that say about its absolution?

Quote:
 
Long Island has been a republican stronghold for years, but even that is changing so the patronage situation may change as well.
That is also relatively untrue, the republican party is still parity big in Nassau County. The problem is that the guys at the top ran into some fiscal problems a few years back and the people of the county thought it was time for a change in management and many republicans went left for a change. But unfortunately for the democrats they haven’t been doing a good job ether this time round (even though they had promised Nassau county would be prosperous if they had won). People are starting to get mad at them since they couldn’t deliver and I predict that Nassau will swing back to the republican side in the next run for county executor.

On a interesting note I know the Nassau county executor personally he comes form my home town and we are part of the same Son’s of Italy loge. Before he became mayor of the city of glen cove (my home town by the way) he was an every active member and so is my family. Now that he is county executor he only comes around for big events be we talk to him every now and then.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Intrepid2002
Member Avatar
UNGH!
doctortobe
Apr 12 2004, 11:33 AM


While the conservatives may have a stronghold on the radio waves, the liberals have an iron grip on colleges.

So if every college student 18 years old and above voted in November's election,
John Kerry would win?

No.. there are some very conservative colleges and universities out there. BJU anybody?

Can't throw out blanket assumptions like that ;)
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Dandandat
Member Avatar
Time to put something here
Intrepid2002
Apr 12 2004, 01:11 PM
doctortobe
Apr 12 2004, 11:33 AM


While the conservatives may have a stronghold on the radio waves, the liberals have an iron grip on colleges.

So if every college student 18 years old and above voted in November's election,
John Kerry would win?

No.. there are some very conservative colleges and universities out there. BJU anybody?

Can't throw out blanket assumptions like that ;)

But he didn’t make a blanket assumptions - he didn’t say that “all” college where liberal. He sad that the liberals have a much stronger hold on colleges (as a whole) then do conservatives. Which form my experience is a true statement.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
ds9074
Member Avatar
Admiral
I dont like the idea of needed to be part of a political party to "get on" in certain positions. I guess it must exist here, I dont think many trade unionists are paid up Conservatives.

Locally however I can say its not the case where I live at all. We have a Conservative councillor who on a range of issues has been extremely helpful and got things done for us, yet he knows full well no-one in our household will be voting for him.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Dandandat
Member Avatar
Time to put something here
ds9074
Apr 12 2004, 02:01 PM
Locally however I can say its not the case where I live at all. We have a Conservative councillor who on a range of issues has been extremely helpful and got things done for us, yet he knows full well no-one in our household will be voting for him.

Personally as in he got a family member a job or something to that extent? If so you still had to network with him right, in being his friend and/or good acquaintance. Its the same everywhere. A Party meeting is a good way to network. As is a local (unpolitical) club meeting, or an office party ect ect.

This doesn’t mean you "need" to be part of a party to "get on" in a job. For the most part if you are worth promoting you will be promoted, if you are not you wont be. But hanging with the big wigs just helps get you name out there. That way when your file comes across this guys desk your not just another name to him. People are always more willing to help out people they "know" then people they don’t (regardless of who you will be voting for).
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
38957
Apr 12 2004, 12:47 PM
I didn't name names and I didn't say disparage (I said criticize). Disparage has a negative connotation. Criticize is more neutral.

Fortunately I armed myself with a fire extinguisher as soon as I posted that. :D

Really, people are quick to jump in and criticize the United States for any little thing that they here. And quick to point out how it ought to be and how great it is somewhere else. In some cases it probably is done better somewhere else, but should an American criticize somewhere else, it would be akin to declaring war (those ignorant, smug, arrogant Americans think they should tell everyone how to run their own country).

Just my observation. Americans can be and are often arrogant as well as ignorant, preachy, irritating, nosey, critical, pushy and down-right jerky, but we by no means have the market cornered on any of these qualities.

I think you are getting your back up for nothing.

This is Minuet making the statements, not Somerled. Consider the source of the comments and the fact that I usually am supportive of the US.

There is nothing wrong with a bit of critisim. I have never jumped to critisise the US, so maybe if I am critisizing this time I have a legitamate point. I just felt that the stories listed did not sound like the United States I am used to, and IF TRUE then Americans should be ashamed.

Dandandat has argued that at least on of the stories is not true in his experiences in the same county. I accept that, which is why I didn't automatically take the story at face value and start calling Americans hypocrites.

If you want to keep your American values you need to be able to take an honest look at yourselves and promote change where nessesary. I feel the same way about Canada. We must constantly strive to improve ourselves and that does mean looking for faults and fixing them.
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
24thcenstfan
Member Avatar
Something Wicked This Fae Comes
Swidden
Apr 11 2004, 07:20 PM
^^^
Maybe he had better pay closer attention to Dean's implosion before reacting so harshly...

Unfortunately, some tend to not heed the lessons of politician’s past when in the heat of the moment. Anymore crazy antics and Kerry will definitely start heading the way of Dean's Presidential campaign.Posted Image
Offline | Profile | Quote | ^
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Enjoy forums? Start your own community for free.
Learn More · Sign-up Now
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Politics and World Events Forum · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Tweet
comments powered by Disqus