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USA employment; question
Topic Started: Apr 5 2004, 02:31 AM (304 Views)
somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
I'll have to take your word for no one starving once their welfare payments are exhausted. The economic growth in the USA is from what I have read and heard a largely jobless growth phase - driven by speculation like here in Australia.

It is all well and good to issue food stamps to very long term unemployed, but how do they find money to pay for utilities (power, heating, phone - phone is a necessity these days) or to pay rent if they don't actually own their home (mortgage paid out) ?
I'm currently a fulltime student so am not "officially" unemployed, though I am certainly underemployed and regard myself as unemployed and keen to get back into the paid workforce ASAP. I am lucky in that I have some savings and I own my home and am essentially debt free (and plan on remaining that way unless I relocate for a new job - in which case I'll rent my home out, and buy / build a new home (and will need to take out a mortgage again).
I have never met anyone who is unemployed and wants to remain unemployed, the "dole bludger" label given to long term unemployed people is an urban myth. And people who blame the long term unemployed for being unemployed are missing the point , they are blaming the victim for being a victim of an inequitable economic system.

It is not correct - least wise here in Australia - that anyone who wants a job can get a job.
It was correct when I was a kid and an young adult (in the 70's) when we had unemployment at about 1% or less, and more jobs available than people to fill them.
But the official unemployment rate here is now over 6.5% (and you can treble or quadruple that number when you include discouraged job seekers who have given up looking, or have decided to study, or who are living off their savings + benefits and are waiting.
Plus the basis is different now even to what was used only 5 years ago , kids under 18 are no long included, people engaged as slaves (in soon to become compulsory "work for the dole" programs), and people like me who are studying fulltime while looking aren't included either, as are discouraged job seekers who are no longer actively seeking a job after 2 or 3 years of trying without success.

Unemployment in my town is officially over 12% , and is actually considerable higher as we have lost industries which will never return. A similar situation exists in Woolongong / Kembla , and several other industrial areas.

What about people who have been made redundant and essentially unemployable because they have none of the skills necessary in the "new" economies or industries and inadequate education, or are too old to be employable ?

The labour market has become highly casualised, and is no longer high skilled based industrial , but service (low skill and DIFFERENT & LOWER QUALITY skill) based ,and many people who are caught up in this casualised workforce will never be able to develop a career or accumulate sufficient retirement savings as a result. This is not in the long term economic interest of the nation.
I suspect similar things are happening in other "developed" nations as well as economies become more and more inequitable.
Looks more and more like Australia will become the poor white trash of Asia as we miss out on new technologies and economies and continue to export low value added commodities and products , and import highly processed and high value added products from our Asian neighbours and continue to allow our industries to move off-shore or to reduce.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Quote:
 
It is not correct - least wise here in Australia - that anyone who wants a job can get a job.
I don’t know how it is in Australia but here in the states I disagree 90% with that statement. I think its more like "It is not correct - that anyone who wants their ideal job can get their ideal job."

If you want a job where I live, you can find one. If you are an electrical engineer as I am, there is no guaranty you will to find an electrical engineers job, but you can always go work doing something else. It may not be as fun, it may not be as easy for you, it may not even bring in as much money as you are use to. But it will get you by.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
You may have something in that Dan, least wise in part.

However - someone with very good credentials and experience to burn - will not necessarily be able to break back into the workforce doing menial or lower status or more juniuor jobs as the prospective employer will take one look at the candidate and think this guy has got to be kidding or this guy will not stay (he'll shoot through as soon he finds a job more suitable for his credentials and experience), and I'll be out of pocket and back at square one with new guy.

There is also the situation that the candidate could be very much better qualified than the boss which would make for an awkward relationship. I've been in that situation - and it is not a happy situation especially if people start looking to you rather than the boss for technical leadership and he/she catches on.

Of cause that is provided the application makes it through the personnel relations / employment agency filters (usually guys or ladies in their 20s or 30s (unless you are dealing with senior managers as I general do in my job applications now adays) who will likely screen the candidate out as being overqualified and therefore unsuitable for the role - because they think they will be too expensive (even if you spell out to them that you are willing to negotiate on salary or rate of pay).

What you say Dan works in theory, but in practice , and I speak from experience here , it doesn't work.

I regularly apply for more junior roles, roles in areas I theoretically have appropriate credentials for (but in industries I have not worked in - siting transferable / adaptable know-how and more general professional attributes I have won over time) .

Bloody fustrating !
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
somerled
Apr 6 2004, 01:04 AM
What you say Dan works in theory, but in practice , and I speak from experience here , it doesn't work.

I regularly apply for more junior roles, roles in areas I theoretically have appropriate credentials for (but in industries I have not worked in - siting transferable / adaptable know-how and more general professional attributes I have won over time) .


Perhaps you need to think out side the box (no critisume intended). But if the there are no high teach jobs for you out there. Maybe you should try to start your own biusness, or apliy to be a manger some where, or a salesman (they can make good money, even if it is a haslet). My point is there are Jobs to take, they just might not be ideal.


Quote:
 
Bloody fustrating !
I agree, I was let go a week shortly after I graduated college, and I couldn’t find a new job for almost a year. There I was, I had just spent 4 years, and a hole lot of money (my own money) and I was back at square one. I can only imagine what it would be like for someone who put in 20 years doing something, only to find out they cant find a job. But it is very easy to just give up (even if you are still looking) and declare there are no jobs, when there are. I know this form experience, I for a while refused to get a job unless it was as an electrical engineer. It wasn’t until the money started to run out that I had to think of the possibility of other work, and found that it was there. Luckily for me around the same time, I got the job I am at now. But if I didn’t you would be talking to the operations mangier at the locale eclectic and alpines store now.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Starting a business takes capital - I'm not prepared to risk the family home on something that could easy fall over.

Other things - yep been looking at other career paths (the problem is that I run up against similar issues in those as well - I've been doing teacher training in between my engineering studies (not my preferred job - teaching kids in high school - yuck , and teaching tiny tots in primary - boring , teaching at college - no tenuor (only casual teaching available), at uni - maybe but need a PhD to really get a look in - looking seriously into that providing I can manage H2A or better, got H2B in Chem Eng but that's below the cut off.

Many of my ex-BHP colleagues have started off business' with their ill-gotten gains - most have gone bust and blown their money , some have even lost their homes. Despite developing what looked like iron clad business plans or buying into franchises.
Lots of the older guys (25 years + service - lucky bastards to last that long !) put their pay outs into investment properties - my Princ Eng now owns 6 homes and is doing OK - but he had 32 yrs service, not flash and not earning near the 150k he was on at the BHP but still OK.

Lots of others are or have been teaching at schools (primary , highschool), most have thrown that in.
A large number of them are doing exactly like me - studying while marking time - and applying for jobs.
The guys over 55 - 60 have mostly opted out and are living off their savings.

Long way from giving up - I regularly make it the short lists for engineering / technical roles (best 3 or 4). I am on first name terms with senior technical people and managers for just about every major plant in Australia and NZ. Very wide network - eventually it's got to pay off.

I have an interview with ASIO after easter - they are flying me to Canberra to meet some of their guys and for interviews etc for a job as a technical analyst what ever that is, I was head hunted by them (don't how they got my details), but it involves being based in Canberra and the money as a "spy" isn't flash, and I really don't think they'll like my political views terribly much.
ASIO is engaged in a recruitment drive I believe and want experienced technical people from all disciplimes. I guess the FBI and CIA are also recruiting fast as they can too in your neck of the woods. ASIO is like a combination of the FBI and CIA here.
I really can't see myself totting a conceiled hand gun, chasing down foreign spies or terrorists or as an international weapons inspector. My elderst boy thinks it's cool - and loves the idea of dad as an ASIO spy. :loling:
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Admiralbill_gomec
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somerled
Apr 6 2004, 10:08 AM
Starting a business takes capital - I'm not prepared to risk the family home on something that could easy fall over.

Other things - yep been looking at other career paths (the problem is that I run up against similar issues in those as well - I've been doing teacher training in between my engineering studies (not my preferred job - teaching kids in high school - yuck , and teaching tiny tots in primary - boring , teaching at college - no tenuor (only casual teaching available), at uni - maybe but need a PhD to really get a look in - looking seriously into that providing I can manage H2A or better, got H2B in Chem Eng but that's below the cut off.

Many of my ex-BHP colleagues have started off business' with their ill-gotten gains - most have gone bust and blown their money , some have even lost their homes. Despite developing what looked like iron clad business plans or buying into franchises.
Lots of the older guys (25 years + service - lucky bastards to last that long !) put their pay outs into investment properties - my Princ Eng now owns 6 homes and is doing OK - but he had 32 yrs service, not flash and not earning near the 150k he was on at the BHP but still OK.

Lots of others are or have been teaching at schools (primary , highschool), most have thrown that in.
A large number of them are doing exactly like me - studying while marking time - and applying for jobs.
The guys over 55 - 60 have mostly opted out and are living off their savings.

Long way from giving up - I regularly make it the short lists for engineering / technical roles (best 3 or 4). I am on first name terms with senior technical people and managers for just about every major plant in Australia and NZ. Very wide network - eventually it's got to pay off.

I have an interview with ASIO after easter - they are flying me to Canberra to meet some of their guys and for interviews etc for a job as a technical analyst what ever that is, I was head hunted by them (don't how they got my details), but it involves being based in Canberra and the money as a "spy" isn't flash, and I really don't think they'll like my political views terribly much.
ASIO is engaged in a recruitment drive I believe and want experienced technical people from all disciplimes. I guess the FBI and CIA are also recruiting fast as they can too in your neck of the woods. ASIO is like a combination of the FBI and CIA here.
I really can't see myself totting a conceiled hand gun, chasing down foreign spies or terrorists or as an international weapons inspector. My elderst boy thinks it's cool - and loves the idea of dad as an ASIO spy. :loling:

I started up a business with limited funds. I needed PCs and network set-ups, plus minor equipment. I invested less than US$5,000 to start my business. One route I could have taken was the Small Business Administration. They extend loans and grants to build new businesses.

Does Australia have the equivalent? If so, research that if you can.

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captain_proton_au
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A Robot in Disguise

somerled
Apr 6 2004, 10:08 AM
I have an interview with ASIO after easter - they are flying me to Canberra to meet some of their guys and for interviews etc for a job as a technical analyst what ever that is, I was head hunted by them (don't how they got my details), but it involves being based in Canberra and the money as a "spy" isn't flash, and I really don't think they'll like my political views terribly much.
ASIO is engaged in a recruitment drive I believe and want experienced technical people from all disciplimes. I guess the FBI and CIA are also recruiting fast as they can too in your neck of the woods. ASIO is like a combination of the FBI and CIA here.
I really can't see myself totting a conceiled hand gun, chasing down foreign spies or terrorists or as an international weapons inspector. My elderst boy thinks it's cool - and loves the idea of dad as an ASIO spy. :loling:

well that certainly makes me feel safe!!

ASIO's recriuting lefties now?!!?

Maybe Bob Brown is an undercover spy as well?!!?

And I wonder what Judy Davis's codename is?
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captain_proton_au
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A Robot in Disguise

Spongebath,

Are you talking about applying for jobs around Newcastle, or do you look at Sydney too?

Higher education in Australia is still relatively cheap compared to some parts of the world, heck, with the HECS scheme you dont even have to pay off the cost of university until you get to 30K a year, and thats interest free. Which means of course we are going to have an oversupply of qualified people in some fields. Australia is a small country population wise and there is not enough growth to sustain an oversupply of graduates, if possible the real answer is going overseas to get the big paychecks and instant jobs especially UK where they have an undersupply in just about every field, which is why they pinch all our doctors, nurses, engineers and management. I knew from day one at uni that I will be going over when i graduate, why spend a year here fighting for a crappy position when I can go over and pick up a job straight away. But if your saying youre frustrated cos you cant pick up a job in Newcastle, I'm not surprised - theres nothing there, just like down here in the gong, if not for BHP theres nothing else - go to the big smoke.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
If you are referring to me as one of the smelly masses :loling:
You probably live with mum and dad and so don't have to pay much for your housing to live in Sydney, or are you living in a dormatory on campus ? (these are cheap as chips especially if you get a living away from home scholarship or rental assistance with your Youth Allowance (you'd be on that rather than Austudy I guess). Or you might be shacking up with half a dozen mates in flat or some old dive somewhere near the campus.

I apply for roles throughout Australia (generally a dozen or so roles a week here and there and often a lot more than that as the openings come in flurries - many not permanent (short-term contract engineering roles), NZ and sometimes in the UK and Europe. Applying for jobs and attending interviews , often requiring interstate travel is really disruptive to my studies - it's a wonder I'm made it so far in this degree !
I've also looked at the USA / Canada but it's not worth the effort to emmigrate there unless you are being transferred within a multinational in which case entry is easier. Maybe the Trade Agreement will loosen that up for us Aussies (but I wouldn't bet on it - we'll never get the preferential treatment of the Canadians).

Only apply for jobs in Sydney which pay well enough to make it worth my while getting into debt up to my eyeballs to relocate to Sydney - I'd be looking at over $500,000 (probably $700,000 for a 3 / 4 bedroom modern brick home on a big block of land (a full 1/4 acre) and a double garage) to house my family in the style they are accustomed to if I took a job in Sydney . Commuting from Newcastle is not a viable proposition - looking at leaving home at 4am starts to get to an 8am start anywhere in Sydney where there might a bit of industry.

Melbourne isn't much better but the there is more industry there and more opportunities and the housing is more affordable.

Brisbane is lots better both ways .

Some opportunities coming up in Perth and Darwin. HiSmelt and the LNG plant, and iin the metalloferrous mining and processing industries (Alcan, Alcoa, Billiton, Hammersley, Worley and MIM).
Most opportunities are currently in Mackay, Rockhamption, central Queensland, and points north and west.

Well actually - there is a great deal less in Newcastle now that BHP quit , Pasminco (who went belly up) shut their gates, Forgacs stopped building real ships , and that several coal mines (Coal & Alllied and BHP Coal) have shutdown.
We still have Smorgons, Tubemakers, Goninons (train builders) and a bit of coal mining plus the power industries. So there is still hope here.
There is also bugger all in Sydney for technical people - believe I have looked - and dammed hard. Mostly low paid , low skilled , service and sales and tourism jobs - mostly casual to boot and not at all worth chasing. I really don't know how people starting out can actually afford to live and work in Sydney -unless they are still home with mum and dad , or shack up with several mates in a cockroach palace out in western suburbs, or somewhere in Redfern (who wants to live there ?) or on the central coast and commute a long way every day.
There is just a little bit of pharmeutical and cosmetics, and a few insignificant and small petrochem plants clustered about here and there, and only really the refinery down Botany way who employ bugger all and haven't had an opening that I've seen or heard of for years - they only take on cadets or graduates and NEVER experienced engineers from other industries.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Bill :
I have actually looked into starting my own business , I come from a business family and have the know-how.

I had a parttime direct importing mailorder business for several years that I wound up a few years ago that I operated from home (it started off as tax dodge) where I built and sold telescopes and astronomical paraphaia which was profitable but time consuming while the AUD was "high" and before the GST was introduced - I didn't bother paying salestax if it wasn't collected by AusPost or the freight company, and passed those savings , and that obligation onto my customers. When the GST was introduced / about the same as the value of the AUD fell to record lows (45 USc / AUD) I decided it wasn't worth the bother and closed the business down.

I have also worked as an independent engineering contractor and scored a lucrative contract to do some commissioning and development engineering work at BHP's DRI plant at Port Hedland (the money was obscenely good while it lasted and helped me pay out my mortgage completely) but indemnity insurance killed that business option by largely pricing independent contractors out like I was out the market (looking at huge indemnity insurance premiums in high risk technical fields where you are dealing with totally new technologies). I would have to charge clients 50 - 60 % more now to earn the same money as I was getting in 2000 as a result (based on my latest indemnity insurance quote).

Is indemnity insurance a problem for contractors in the USA also ?
Do you pay it or is paid on your behalf by your client ?

There is a scheme offered by the Federal Government I believe which is available to people on NewStart (the dole) but they have to be long term unemployed to be eligible for support - this is it Self Employment Development, Group Enterprise and Cooperative Enterprise:
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
In answer to Proton :
get a load of woffly descriptors and questions from ASIS = Australian Secret Intelligence Agency :
Quote:
 


We are looking for people who may come from a wide range of backgrounds, but who have certain attributes.  They must be able to:

Ø engage with and influence people at any level and from any culture, either individually or as a member of a team

­ They will enjoy meeting and socialising with a wide range of people from a variety of backgrounds, and they will enjoy immersing themselves in different cultures.  They will be effective communicators and negotiators.  They will build relationships, have presence and impact, and they will be able to motivate others to act.  They will have a collaborative attitude to their work.

Ø think creatively and generate practical solutions to problems

­ They will be able to work in challenging environments and be comfortable dealing with ambiguity, but will be able to identify short and long term objectives.  They will be realistic and pragmatic.  They will be able to identify options and think clearly and laterally to derive achievable and practical solutions.  They will be able to take calculated risks.  They will be innovative and resourceful.

Ø manage objectives and tasks to achieve results with initiative, drive and judgement

­ They will have energy, determination and commitment to results and they will strive for excellence.  They will be self-motivated and reliable.  They will be able to work independently but will also be team players.  They will be ready to apply themselves and work hard, and they will cope effectively and resourcefully under pressure.  They will be able to understand opportunities and take appropriate action at the right time.  They will take responsibility for their work and be accountable.

Ø learn and adapt, and apply self-awareness to their actions

­ They will be open-minded and flexible.  They will be prepared for personal challenge and be able to learn from experience and advice.  They will strive for continuous improvement.

Ø maintain a high level of personal integrity

­ They will be mature and self-disciplined.  They will uphold the highest ethical standards.  They will treat others fairly, be able to maintain confidentiality, and honour their obligations.

Your answers to the following questions will enable you to demonstrate how you meet these key selection criteria.  In demonstrating your skills and your ability to meet the selection criteria, please address the following questions in a succinct and relevant way. (It goes on for about 15 pages !)

1.Why do you want to work with ASIS?
2.What are your personal goals over the next 5 and 10 years?
3.How would you describe your interpersonal style? What experiences have shaped it?
4.Describe a situation where you had to deal with someone of cultural or other difference to yourself, where you had to adapt your behaviour.  What did you do?  What was the outcome?
5.Describe the most difficult negotiation you have been involved in.  What was the outcome – did you succeed in obtaining a win-win situation, and if so, how?  With hindsight, how might you have gone about the negotiation differently, if at all?
6.Describe a particular challenge you have confronted, and how you went about dealing with it.  What did you do to understand the issue and its causes?  What action did you take?  What was the end result?
7.What are your personal interests?
8.What do you see as the major external threats to Australia ’s national interests over the next ten years?  What role do you think intelligence plays in assisting the Australian Government to meet these threats?  Finally some knitty gritty !!!
9. history stuff , education , languages , skills etc etc etc
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