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Early Election
Topic Started: Mar 24 2004, 10:03 AM (669 Views)
doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
Hey, that sounds like a history of nztrekkie's posts in the past couple years.
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Dwayne
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doctortobe
Apr 10 2004, 07:41 PM
Hey, that sounds like a history of nztrekkie's posts in the past couple years.

What sounds like that?
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ds9074
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Slightly off on an tangent, I'm not sure where Afganistan comes into this, but yes the differences between Labour and Conservative are like Republican and Democrat, they run deep. I wouldnt say the same about the difference between Europe and America. There are a lot of very close links between the two and you couldnt say they were pathologically opposed to working together, although they do disagree on some policies. More like Labour and the Liberals relationship actually.

BTW all three main parties in the UK supported the war in Afganistan if I remember rightly.
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Dwayne
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ds9074
Apr 10 2004, 07:51 PM
Slightly off on an tangent, I'm not sure where Afganistan comes into this, but yes the differences between Labour and Conservative are like Republican and Democrat, they run deep. I wouldnt say the same about the difference between Europe and America. There are a lot of very close links between the two and you couldnt say they were pathologically opposed to working together, although they do disagree on some policies. More like Labour and the Liberals relationship actually.

BTW all three main parties in the UK supported the war in Afganistan if I remember rightly.

So you mean to tell me you don't think France's opposition to the United States isn't deep rooted?

Do you think that Muslim migration into Europe hasn't changed the face of Europe?

Do you think there isn't an increased level of anti-Semitism in Europe?

I hope you can answer what I consider very serious questions.
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ds9074
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I dont think Frances opposition to the United States is deep rooted. I think France is France and they like to think they are in the right, as do we. We had a disagreement on policy. On the fundemental level we are allies. France and the US are allies.

I dont think the face of Europe has been changed by immigration. Yes there have been changes but I dont think they have been fundemental. There is not some great network of immigrants undermining our countries.

I think there may or may not have been an increase in anti-semitism. There have always been an anti-semetic minority and events in Israel have not improved the situation. Its not something that is prevelant however. I think there is also a question of definition, critising the policies of the Israel government is not anti-semetic.
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Minuet
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There has been a definite increase in anti-semitism in Europe, and I might add in the US and Canada.

I haven't mentioned this previously on these boards, but there has recently been a rash of anti-semitic incidences in Toronto. A synagogue was vandalized, and a cemetary down the road from the synagogue. There was also a major incident in a townhouse developement where a number of jewish homes (easily identifiable by mezuzahs on the doorposts) were vandalized. This last incident hit close to home for me because my future sister-in-law lives across the road from a home that was hit, and the homes are a 10 minute walk from my own home.

As for Europe, just read this article The cancer of anti-Semitism in Europe

or try this one:

The New Anti-Semitism in Western Europe

DS, I hate to say this but many many anti-semites try to cover for themselves by saying that being anti-Israel is not the same as being anti-semitic. I want to emphasize that I am not accusing you of anti-semitism when I say this. However, I would draw your attention to the "Death of Hamas Leader" thread to see exactly what I mean. There have actually been at least 4 posters in that thread who have not supported Israel's policies. I have only accused one of making anti-semitic comments. Read the thread in detail and hopefully you will understand why I made the accusation and what the difference is. Most Jews can handle honest critisim and disagreement, but there are people making statements that are outright lies. This is what I call anti-semitism.
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ds9074
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You see there is a question of definition. In one of those links its mentions the cartoon of Sharon biting of the head of a baby. Now that was the daily cartoon in the paper I read. I didnt think it was anti-semetic. Anti-Sharon, Anti-Israeli but not anti-semetic.

I would honestly say that in my opinion anti-semitism is very rare. I dont think it is common among the populations of Europe. When incidents do occur then publicity is given. I would say that there is a much greater level of abuse thrown at Muslims and other minority groups.
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
Dwayne
Apr 10 2004, 07:45 PM
doctortobe
Apr 10 2004, 07:41 PM
Hey, that sounds like a history of nztrekkie's posts in the past couple years.

What sounds like that?

Your comments about false claims made by the far left for some reason contain a lot of topics nz has posted about.




Min- perhaps anti-semitism is not spreading per se, perhaps it is only becoming more vocal. Are more people starting to hate Jews, or are the same number of people who have already hated Jews their whole lives merely more emboldened as actions by Israel are received negatively.
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Dwayne
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ds9074
Apr 11 2004, 10:03 AM
You see there is a question of definition. In one of those links its mentions the cartoon of Sharon biting of the head of a baby. Now that was the daily cartoon in the paper I read. I didnt think it was anti-semetic. Anti-Sharon, Anti-Israeli but not anti-semetic.

I would honestly say that in my opinion anti-semitism is very rare. I dont think it is common among the populations of Europe. When incidents do occur then publicity is given. I would say that there is a much greater level of abuse thrown at Muslims and other minority groups.

ds9074, don't you realize that one of the demagogic accusations levelled at Jews by Muslims is that Jews sacrifice and eat children?

That "cartoon" of Sharon biting the head off a child is an attack on Sharon, Israel and Jews - not necessarily in that order. In fact, it is anti-Semitic, and I think there is a willing ignorance in Europe to what Muslims are doing. And when the acts of the hard line Islamists cannot be ignored, it is excused as merely a response to the Jews.
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Minuet
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ds9074
Apr 11 2004, 11:03 AM
You see there is a question of definition. In one of those links its mentions the cartoon of Sharon biting of the head of a baby. Now that was the daily cartoon in the paper I read. I didnt think it was anti-semetic. Anti-Sharon, Anti-Israeli but not anti-semetic.

I would honestly say that in my opinion anti-semitism is very rare. I dont think it is common among the populations of Europe. When incidents do occur then publicity is given. I would say that there is a much greater level of abuse thrown at Muslims and other minority groups.

In addition to what Dwayne has said let me ask you a question. Has that same paper ever printed a cartoon of Arafat strapping dynamite onto a child's chest. Or do they reserve ALL of thier critisism for Israel? That is also a measure of anti-semitisim.

I can handle when a paper tells of what is happening from a non-biased point of view. I am just sick and tired of Israel being vilified while the Palestinians are treated with kid gloves. That does qualify as anti-semitism. Just open your eyes to see how one sided the view of many publications is.
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Minuet
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doctortobe
Apr 11 2004, 01:04 PM
Min- perhaps anti-semitism is not spreading per se, perhaps it is only becoming more vocal. Are more people starting to hate Jews, or are the same number of people who have already hated Jews their whole lives merely more emboldened as actions by Israel are received negatively.

It couldn't become more vocal unless there was increasing acceptance of it.

Think about it.
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
It is more acceptable because there has been no widespread resistance against it. When there is an allegation of violence or prejudice against a minority, you can bet that it will be all over the news and people for the most part will know what has happened. It seems however, that Judaism has been clumped into the same group as Christianity in the sense that you are expected to take care of yourself.

Point being is that Joe Average doesn't know that anti-semitism is on the rise.
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ds9074
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I should say it was a cartoon in the paper not the view of the paper. And yes the same paper has been critical of the suicide bombers and the way children are being trained up and indocrinated to want to then blow themselves up and kill Israelis.

As for the poster it might have been tastless but seeing it I certainly didnt see it as an attack on Jews but on the Sharon. From what you say then maybe I will change my view on that particular cartoon.

I honestly do not think that there is a great wave of anti-semitism in Europe. Muslims are much more likely to be the targets of hate crime. They tend to be seen as 'outsiders' were as Jews are not seen like that by the vast majority.
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Dwayne
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ds9074
Apr 11 2004, 04:04 PM
I should say it was a cartoon in the paper not the view of the paper. And yes the same paper has been critical of the suicide bombers and the way children are being trained up and indocrinated to want to then blow themselves up and kill Israelis.

As for the poster it might have been tastless but seeing it I certainly didnt see it as an attack on Jews but on the Sharon. From what you say then maybe I will change my view on that particular cartoon.

I honestly do not think that there is a great wave of anti-semitism in Europe. Muslims are much more likely to be the targets of hate crime. They tend to be seen as 'outsiders' were as Jews are not seen like that by the vast majority.

Is there any room in your thinking for the possibility that things are more anti-Semitic on the other side of the channel than on the British side?
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ds9074
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I dont think that is that case but it is possible that anti-semetic feeling could be greater in 'continential' Europe than in GB.
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