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Death of Hamas Leader
Topic Started: Mar 22 2004, 09:55 AM (1,936 Views)
Fesarius
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Admiral
Quote:
 
Fesarius :
Did I come across as being threatened by Minuet's smiley?

Somerled,

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I also grow tire of this threat - which is going no where.

;)


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Minuet
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somerled
Apr 14 2004, 10:30 AM
Fesarius :
Did I come across as being threatened by Minuet's smiley ?
Don't do that - I suspect that could be a crime against humanity (well the autrocity of musical discord anyway - a bit like my singing voice - does Tiny Tim ring a bell ? when I sing I fracture every note.)

Minuet :
:nanner: to you too ! :loling:

Boy, you really don't read very carefully, do you?

I was sticking my tongue out at Fesarius, not you :shrug:

And if you had gone back to read what you had written you might have "got" Fesarius' joke.

And your joke about your singing being a crime against humanity is not funny. It just shows how little you understand about what a real crime is. :realmad:
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Perhaps you never heard Tiny Tim's singing voice.
Maybe you are too young to remember him.

You certainly haven't heard mine (you can count that as a blessing).
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Fesarius
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I recall Tiny Tim quite well (Tiptoe Through the Tulips)--and he was, er, taken seriously, at least on Laugh-In. ;) I also know that AdmiralBill owns and cherishes his complete works. ;)
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
What ? He had more than one hit ?

He was pretty handsome too Posted Image( ;) ) Tiny Tim's Website believe it not

My dad would just :no: :no: when ever he came on the radio or TV.
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Fesarius
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^^^
I'm not sure, but the Admiral will know. ;)
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Yo-Yo
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This is gonna be long, I sorry i also missed this thread i went up to page seven and deicded to start typing before my eyes fell out :thud:

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The Israeli government and senior military are 100% accountable for actions the Israeli military have chosen to take (unilaterally and for the narrow ends of a land hungry, vindictive and ammoral minority who happen be part of the current government or who are able to sway this government).


Excatly how is Israel land hungry? The land has been captured in a war forced upon them and thought they have never annexed it they could easily do so and LEGALLY by international law Israel has not taken any knew land since then but rather given back. For peace isreal returned the siana penninsula, a major strateigic peace of land between Israel and Egypt aswell as strategic territories in Lebanon. You have to considure the size of israel. you can fit more than two israels into the State of west virginia. The websites below may give you a better perspective, but israel is surrounded by many huge hostile Arab states to what is close to a 60:1 ratio militarily. Israel fights to brdige the gap through superior quality. The land israel has now is of extreme strategic importance. Before 1967 isreal was only 9 miles wide at one point with little or no strategic high ground for conventional weaponry! Thats a disaster with (without going on a religious tangent or anything) is really a miracle that israel one that war the way it did in just six days! And no griping from you that the arab armies were crap then! They were top of the line supplied both by the USSR and USA. In the battle for Jerusalem Israel had to pitch about 50 old world war two shermans (with out disrespect to the American but they are really crap tanks even in WWII) against 80 of the latest Pattons! Israel does not want to give up te west bank because its strategic suicide. So they dont grab land they hold on to what they NEED to survive from what was captured from a war FORCED upon them.

http://www.iris.org.il/sizemaps.htm
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Peace/arabworld.html

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Actually, I believe that NZs examples all occurred back before 1949, didn't they? If not, then is was right at the founding of the Jewish state.


Yes and if you do enough research you will see there was a HUGE amount of terrorist attacks and raids against the Jews in Israel by the Arabs at that time as well. A good example is the Hebron riot in which the arabs slaughtered 70 Jewish people of all ages. They even killed a Jewsih eye doctor who treated for free hundreds of arabs in the reagion who were suffereing from eye diseases. The King David hotel bombing by the way was a MILITARY target as that is what the British were using it for. And not only that it is documented that the Jews WARNED them before the explosion to evacuate!

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My point about the negotiations is that I just don't see the fighting getting anywhere ever. As long as that's the approach it will either not end at all or one side or the other will need to be practically wiped out. It takes both sides though to sit down and agree to negotiate which also may never happen.


FYI: Eyhud Barak offered Arafat Gaza, half of Jeruslaem for a Capital, "right of return to Palestinian" :sick: , and 97% of the West Bank and he rejected it and started an intafidah. What else can Israel do?

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Kill a leader in Hamas, Al Quieda, or the Hezbollah, and you have made a martyr.


Yeah but then Hamas is in temporary chaos trying to re-org their leadership, that holds off some attacks and even enables intelligence to learn and find more. Also a prisoner is an even greater 'martyr' and living martyr so which is better?

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I condemn the US for not solving the Palestinian problem when it first recognized Israel


What palestinian problem. This is a big problem today of mis-information. There WAS no 'palestinian' people until the 70's or 80's. To back track, when Israel was called 'Palestine' the arabs were just arabs, and if you read you old new papers and history books you will see that the JEWS were called 'Palestinian' and that is what they had on their identification papers not the Arabs.

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Maybe somebody can explain this to me. Why didn't the Israelis just arrest this guy?


Because there would be a blood bath on both side with urban fighting just to get close to him.

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Nor do I like to see people disposed of their rights and land simply because they are not a certain religion - sounds disturbingly like ethnic cleansing to me .


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The intransigence of the Israelis and the Palestinians, and the continual land grabs by "settlers" ,and the refusal to accept a peacekeeping force (UN Blue Barrets) to keep the combatants apart is the crux of the problem, plus the fact that these people refuse to talk or be fairdinkum about the piece process.


first of all refer to the stuff above about 'Palestinian' people. Second many Arabs left Israel in 1948 on their own. Also before Jewish settlers came and worked the land Israel was a wasteland full of deserts, swaps, and disease, this land NO ONE wanted because of its state. The Jews received in and made it flourish, then arabs started complaining. On top of that VAST maoutns of land were PURCHASED from arabs through out Israel AND especially the westbank. So why was there no out cry when Jordan occupied those lands after 1948? And why on earth should Israel have no rights to those lands in the West Bank after they took it back in 1967? There was NO religious oppression in Israel! Read it up! Israel GAVE the Palestinians the temple mount (Judaism's holiest site) for them to have a mosque! And the is today sever religious restriction on by the Palestiain on the temple mount but NONE by the western wall, that place is openly visited by almost every faith (Christian, Buddhist, Hindu...)! Seriously!

With regards to the UN if you look at history it makes sense. The Arab world has a HUGE portion of the General Assmebly and they are ALL united against Israel in EVERYTHING. This is not and exageration even the coutries Israel has signed peace treaties with. When ever Israel started getting the upper hand in the five wars forced upon them the arabs lobbied for a UN cease fire. When ever there was a UN security force to 'protect' israel and keep the peace they annoyed israel and literally stepped aside when the arab nations decided to attack israel (1967 and good exmaple).

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Why doesnt the US or Israel put up such a resolution?


Last year Israel submitted a paper to make a point in the UN. Previously a paper was submitted that wanted to classify the killin of any Palestinian children as a 'war crime' not just direct murder (of course thats a crime) but any inderct death or injury (without specifiying if Israel of e.g. Hamas is responsible). Israel montioned an ammendment to add the murder of Israel children and it was rejected. So to show a point. Israel later broad forward a simple paper of their own outlineing the murder of Israeli Children as a crime. The arab nations forced amenmants reducing the 'criminal' aspect of the murder and putting several ammendmants that were openly anti-Israel. Israel then withdrew the paper having proven its point.

I'm not ever going to justify the 'ethnic clensing' with an answer.

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Its not cowardly to condem this illegal action. There is no way that Israel can ensure its security by killings. Kill one leader and another will come foward, very likely with even more support. This assasination will create more angry people who hate Israel enough to kill inocent Israelis.


I'll just say here than no, it actually works, for reason listed before an a good exmaple. The west Bank used to be a major centre of Hamas aswell but a few years ago Israel began assasinating its leadership when ever they poked their heads out of their foxholes. The result is a west bank pretty clear of Hamas (sure ther are still attacks and suicide bombing form the WB but alot of it is indipendant, organized by Hizbullah, or set up by Hamas from afar). The more leader you kill the more reluctant new ones are to take their place and the less experienced the leadership becomes in running the whole organization (which is good for Isreal for security, military, and intelligence).

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We have only the media's say so (Israeli propoganda) to go on that this man was DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for suicide bombers (including young ladies and children) and that he FORCED them to do these terrible things.


That is such B.S. for crying out loud, Israel has been noted as one of the most open nations to the media promoting the phrase 'we have nothing to hide'. you saw during operation defensive shield tonnes of incredible close ups of the action with the media intermingled with Palestinians and the IDF. So save your breath. THe probelm is that it has put Israel in a lose-lose situation. First alot of media is sensationalizing the 'Palestinain opression' recording only tid bits and giving their own spin on it. Second as mentioned before the media in right in the action. And surprise surprise Israel has be charged by the world with the responsibility of protecting the media. So if the IDF is entering a place that is extremely dangerous they hold back the media and are accused of a cover up and violating the freedom of the press. And when one of these stupid reporters goes some where dangerous and gets hurt Israel gets blasted for putting the media in harms way! :realmad:

I have two good examples of problems with the media that i got first hand. I had spent a year in Israel and was studying with an Israeli Jew who ran away from Iraq. He told me of his freinds in his unit. They had to force a Palestiain family out of their home to setup a defensive position against terrorsity in hte same city block. They took them out to a safe tempporary location. The soldiers were ordered to roll up all rugs for they wound get dirty, they had to sleep on the floor because it would be horrific to someone to know a stranger had slept in their personal beds, they could not touch any items or food in the house. And they were done with the house they were given mops and brooms and had to clean the mud from the house from top to bottom and then they let hte family back in giving htem $2000 US incase of any damages they had missed. Do you think the US army di that when occupying houses in Afganistan or Iraq? I dont tink so.

The second account happened a few weeks ago. I got i first hand form a relative of mine who i grew up with in Canada, he moved to Israel and was drafted into the IDF. He patrols Hebron as we speak which is one of the hell-holes of the middle east. Around the Jewish part of otwn there is a twenty foot wall to protect the families inside from snipers. Around the outside are building long deemed off limits. From time to time Palestiains would move into these buildings and have to move them out. Even though they wer ther for less that a day some how a group of media is always there recording the IDF taking the Palestiains out of the house that they had just moved into ILLEGALY a few hours before. May times the specfic houses they take them out of is found ot have tunnels that run through under ground networks throughout the palestian side of the city. Of course the media present pays to attention to that. He got so fed up of bias pictures being tkaen of them that he then bought a disposable camera to took pictures of them when ever they took pictures of him!

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I am more apt to ask how the Palestinians have come the situatuion where they see they have no choice but to commit suicide in order to engage and pressure the Israelis. What would happen in Canada or the USA if say a mob who have the upperhand economically and militarily took over most of the resources of your country, forced you and family out of work and to become disposed of all those things you enjoy about your society, took over most of the most productive farming land, forced you out of the better regions to live and forced you to live in squallor in ghettos, took your ability to provide for yourself and your family away from you because you were not "one of the chosen people", and started even building a huge fence to separate your people from opportunities and territory and if they disarmed your military almost completely and made them an illegal organisation (on the pretence that it was to stop terrorist attacks by people you regard as patriots or freedom fighters).


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Well not to extent of exterminating people (one hopes it will never come to that, but no-one knows what might happen in the future if an ultra-radical far-right-wing party somehow gained power in the Kenesset), however, forcing large numbers of people to become refugees in their own land and compelling them to live in overpopulated and poorly serviced pockets (ghettoes) and in abject poverty IS NOT FAIR AND RIGHT - why do you this is OK ?


This goes back to what was mentioned above that the Jews had huge legal claims to Israel. Alot of Palestians left in 1948. And to add There were always Jews in Israel even after the exile in first centruy a.d. Sure they very small most of the itme and often indistinguishable from the arabs cultrually but they were still there. So who has a better claim. For bilblical claim, the Jew DID have the land and never left it completely.

Ghettos? huh? oh you mean the 'refugee camps' that their own Palestian leader had kept them in. Seriously now have you ever rad up on how Palestinain life was before Israel gave control over to the PLO? Not as good as the israelis but let me tell you it was pretty darn good, especially in comparrison to today. I dont personally blame the Palestiains for their trouble as a people. i think the avergae palestiain joe would like to just have a life and raise a family. The problem is their leadership which is so ridiculously corrupt that world today is beginning to realise it. They gave Arafat a Nobel Peace prize :sick: not today they completely shun him as a terrorism supporter nad an obsticle to peace. The palestiains could be doing much better but since the PLO took over major amounts of funding had be squanderedin to terrorist groups, propiganda (school text books are full a rabid-anti semetic, anti-zionist grabage that is taken from WWII Greman literature and other sources), and into personal bank accounts. France has Arafat currently under investigation for how his wifes bank account has almost a BILLION, yes, really, a Billion dollars in it. Now dont tell me:
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I do not know the personal living arrangements of Arafat nor do I care - how is that relevant ?

You dont think a billion dollars in Arafats pocket book is relevant?

There is no evil oppression because arabs are not the 'chosen people' there was none of any srious nature before that would merit such a label.

And the wall? Why dont you try staring only at the little red flags the palestians give hte media. Sure some palestians are cut off from their farms (though most get there with just the inconvinience of check points) but how is that more important than saving lives. THe fence is being built to keep terrorists and suicide bombers out and you know what? it works! Around Gaza there has been a complete security fence. and for years, until a week or two ago, the have been NO suicide bombers or major terrorist attack coming out of Gaza, because they cant get out. Those who try are caught by the fence or at the check points. Its not like they are bottled in and not allowed to leave. The IDF just throughly inspects every Palestiain that goes through the gates. So what do you tihnk it more important in conviniencing some farmers or saving lives. From November to March of 2001-2002 Isreal has stopped a recorded 20,000 attmepted infiltrations coming out of the west bank and gaza. Think about that.

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The UN has been weakened greatly by actions of the USA and its Coalision


The UN was always weak because it has a huge arab national bloc and because of its rule to the protection of soveignty. No national soverigty can be violated. They most thye can usually do is trade embargos. That is why NATO who has no such rule gotten off its rear to the the policing.


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What do I mean ? In brief we have 15 - 20 million people who claim Jewish ethnicity who's leadership and military are recousetrant and are acting in an overty aggressive manners towards their neighbours and who are using very dubious historical claims to justify their territorial claims in areas they have no right to, and justify their military actions and domestic policy, and who are taking advantage of their genocide credit to blackmail (well maybe blackmail is too strong a word) / to compel / the rest of the world to accept behaviour that would be regarded as totally unacceptable / criminal if engaged in by another nation state. (As to oppose Israeli domestic and foreign policy attracts allegations of anti-semitism - something that is very distasteful to fair minded people.)


First off the world has notiably taken an extrem Atni-Israel very over the past few years which it slowly changing (at they see the light i hope) with of course the exception of the US.

The territorial claims bitty i've long already answered.

Overtly aggresive to their neighbours? What on god's green earth are you talking about? Israel was historically (well well well documented) forced into FIVE wars with the massive arab nations surrounding it. In most cases losing meant their slughter as well documented that were the claims and cheers of the arab armies in most of the wars. Israel did not start a war with anyone. You might claim that in 1956 when israel took the suze canal that was an agressive act. but read up and you'll learn that egypt closed the suez canal to israeli trade and the suez is a major economic artery to Israel. By International Law that qualifies as an ACT OF WAR. It is really pointless to talk about the other conflicts because they are so blatantly obvious that israel fought on the side of self defense an not agressive expansion. Yeah right, isreal declares state hood in 1948 and decided to attack all the arab nations around them with the few rifile and mortar that they had. :no: What is more, after every conflict Israel sued for peace and were flatly rejected. One of the first tiems the victors are suing for peace and the defeated a calling for war!

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Israel does not need to employ suicide bombers, they send in Apachies , and heavy armour instead with the authority of the Israeli government to destroy homes, rocket crowded streets to take out high priority assassination targets and they have perhaps the most powerful military in the region (excluding the occupation forces in Iraq) to use in their acts of hostility and to put down resistance to their domestic policy.


Yes israel has one of the most well trained and well equiped armies in the world and thank god fro that or they would not last too long. With regards to domestic policy, Israel does not inforce they policiy onto regions where autonomy was given to the PA. THey send in troops when a terrorist or bomb factory is found or a attack had been made becae they know the PA will do nothing about it. The PA is notorious for their 'revovling door' policy for jailing caught terrorists.

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This just shows how utterly ridiculous your entire argument is. Israel is a tiny sliver of land in the midst of overwhelmingly Arab owned lands.


http://www.iris.org.il/sizemaps.htm
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Peace/arabworld.html

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Ok, Jordan trades as well as Egypt, but what of the others?
None the less - it IS trade .


This statement is pointless because the only reason trade is done with these coutires is because treties after long long negotiation has been made. And as you can see the other arab nations refuse to have peace and thus no trade. However they may trade but the anti-israel sentiment in Jordan and especially egypt is still alarmingly strong.


That's for now my fingers are on fire i dont know how you people keep this up!
:shrug:
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Yo-Yo :

A bit verbose and you've put a lot of time into it - this doesn't make everything you say correct or right though. I'll probably respond in more detail later as I'll be busy for the next few days.


Wicheta :

How about a smiley that's two smileys crossing swords ?
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
somerled
Apr 19 2004, 04:44 AM
Yo-Yo :

A bit verbose and you've put a lot of time into it - this doesn't make everything you say correct or right though. I'll probably respond in more detail later as I'll be busy for the next few days.


Wicheta :

How about a smiley that's two smileys crossing swords ?

You will notice that Yo-Yo and I are both putting up well known facts. Not anti-semitic PROPAGANDA

All you have given is regurgitated garbage and opinion without a single first hand account such as Yo-Yo has given. I still challenge you to find just one, JUST ONE totally unbiased source with first hand knowledge of the situation.

As to your smiley request. I'm not smiling right now.
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Yo-Yo
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Right on!
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Already have but you refuse to accept their reports and analysis so it's pointless finding more.

I refer to AI amongst others given.
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Yo-Yo
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Captain
I dont refuse i am reading htem now IN THEIR ENTIRETY and I hope you can do the same for the the opposite view :brow:
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Minuet
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Somerled, I said UNBIASED. Opinion pieces don't count as they are inherently biased.
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Admiralbill_gomec
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Fesarius
Apr 15 2004, 08:43 AM
^^^
I'm not sure, but the Admiral will know. ;)

Why would I know anything about Tiny Tim?

Isn't he dead?
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Fesarius
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Admiral
^^^
Admiral,

I thought your music collection included the complete works of Tiny Tim. I was joshing.... ;)
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