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Death of Hamas Leader
Topic Started: Mar 22 2004, 09:55 AM (1,937 Views)
Minuet
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somerled
Apr 12 2004, 11:08 PM
Doc :
I would hope the KKK is not representative of the vast majority of Americans , just as I would hope Bush Jr's views or fundamentalists are not either.

Minuet:
Are you sure that these squeeky wheels and extremists and fundamentalists in Israel don't have more say in the formulation of Israeli law and domestic policy (towards the Palestinians) through lobby groups and political "donations" ?


Why are you so willing to accept that extremists run Israel, but not other countries??

This is exactly the type of anti-semitism I have been talking about. Did you even look at the news accounts earlier in this thread that I refered you to??

Can you point me to a single article on an atrocity commited by Israel (a government or IDF sanctioned atrocity) that has a neutral eyewitness? By this I mean something seen first hand by a reputable reporter and not just a second hand account from a Palestinian extremist. You have yet to PROVE any allegations to me.

BTW, killing the subject of this thread does not count as an atrocity any more then killing Osama Bin Laden would.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Well, that's not so hard (Minuet), is it not Israelis and IDF government policy to destroy the homes of alleged relations of suspected Palestinian fighters (homes that some of these people have occupied for generations and which belong to people who are innocent) as payback, and to engage in collective severe punishment of entire communities for the actions (to deseige these communities and cut off even emergency services from these communities) in response to the actions small groups.
Arbitrary and uncompensated home destructions , making the owners homeless refugees , by the military is something that most people would consider an atrocity.


And this original subject is not the first extrajudicial killing the IDF has carried out, and that killing does count (nor has it helped).


It is strange that you consider AI as being politically motivated. Most people would not see AI as being overtly politically motivated, unless I guess AI has had the gall to point out infringements of human rights engaged in by their country, or ethnic group - in which case they might be pretty pissed off with the organisation.

I have read the links you provided - and I am in the process of checking the sources behind them. When I have considered them properly I will give you my considered conclusions.

If extremists do not have too much say in Israeli domestic policy then perhaps you can provide evidence that the policies of the Israeli government and IDF have not been overly or unduely influenced by extremist or fundamentalist lobby groups. (This is probably a hard task so I don't expect an immediate response.)
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Minuet
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^^^Just a note. You started a thread about Sudan, and the lack of publicity, and lack of action in that area.

Where have more people died and been displaced. Sudan or the Occupied Territories?

And you wonder why I say that the world is picking on Israel unfairly and out of proportion to what happens there?

Quote:
 
Well, that's not so hard (Minuet), is it not Israelis and IDF government policy to destroy the homes of alleged relations of suspected Palestinian fighters (homes that some of these people have occupied for generations and which belong to people who are innocent) as payback, and to engage in collective severe punishment of entire communities for the actions (to deseige these communities and cut off even emergency services from these communities) in response to the actions small groups.


Homes that are invaded and destroyed are usually chosen because those families are hiding terrorists. They have not been invaded for "payback", that is just more Palestinian propaganda. If I am wrong please provide the first hand NEUTRAL accounts as per what I previously asked for.

As for the emergency services. Terrorists have used these "services" to smuggle people and arms. The IDF is well within thier rights to check these vehicles, in the name of security. If the Palestinian extremists truely cared about thier people they would stop using these tactics so that the IDF could tell the good guys from the bad.

Your problem is that you can't see how the extremists are setting things up. If they would stop hiding in the civilian population and trying to use them as human shields there would be a lot less innocent deaths on the Palestinian side. The Israelis have every right to protect thier own civilian population. The Palestinians should try to do the same instead of using them as shields.
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Minuet
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somerled
Apr 13 2004, 01:02 PM
If extremists do not have too much say in Israeli domestic policy then perhaps you can provide evidence that the policies of the Israeli government and IDF have not been overly or unduely influenced by extremist or fundamentalist lobby groups. (This is probably a hard task so I don't expect an immediate response.)

You made the charge, it is up to you to provide the evidence to back it up.

Innocent until PROVEN guilty.

And I have already asked you twice to look at the story about the 14 year old earlier in this thread as proof of the actual policies of the IDF. Have you bothered to read it yet?????

You have provided nothing through this whole conversation in the way of backup for your charges while I have provided many links. Your case is non-existant.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet:

There is a lot stuff out there, once again, a lot of it hatred or politically motivated, hard to find objective information (no wonder you passed the buck).
OK here are some pertinent links :Doves Coming Out of the Closet by Rabbi Lerner might be of interest to you
and their most recent edition Responses to the Murder of Hamas' Sheikh Yassin says some things of interest regarding extra-judicial killing (murder and assassination).

Most stuff available in the web is in Hebrew so not available to me but I have found
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Likud's traditional coalition allies are Shas, Israel's main ultra-orthodox party, the National Religious Party, the main pro-settler movement and the National Unity-Yisrael Beiteinu Party, which supports a policy of "transfer" of Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza Strip to Jordan.
from Middle East profiles: Likud (Telegraph UK) for those who are not sure - I suspect "transfer" is a euphamism for forceable removal (with all the ramifications of that policy as seen elsewhere).

The National Unity-Yisrael Beiteinu Party (
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ultra right-wing National Unity-Yisrael Beiteinu Party, an amalgam of three small ultra-nationalistic factions.
from Israel's kingmakers (BBC), and the Shas, Israel's main ultra-orthodox party Shas: Breaking the Israeli mould (BBC) , and their allies the Degel Hatorah Party
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a haredi (ultra-Orthodox) party
(ref Jerusalem Post provided information ) all sound pretty extremist and fundamentalist to me.

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Minuet
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Interesting articles.

Remember that these are still opinion pieces and even at that I see them accusing the government of making some strategic errors, but there are no accusations of Ethnic Cleansing. I have also said that I don't agree with every move that has been made and if you look at my comments earlier I stated quite clearly that I didn't know if the assasination was a brilliant move or a disaster.

Where I still have a problem with your remarks is your accusation of Ethnic Cleansing. All you still have shown is that some people have called for it. Yes there are some Right Wing parties in the Kenneset, and yes, they are allied with the ruling party. Do your research and you will also find some moderate parties in that coalition. They keep each other in check. ETHNIC CLEANSING IS NOT THE POLICY OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT.

BTW have you noticed that there has not been a major terrorist incident since Yasin's assasination? Maybe despite all the rhetoric the actual message has finally gotten through to the terrorist leaders. That message being that they are no longer going to be able to hide behind child bombers. If the violence doesn't stop they have to realize that thier own lives are on the line.

In your second link there is an interesting piece (also opinion, I know!) by a gentleman by the name of Barry Rubin

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As a result of his activities, Yasin was jailed by Israel. But Yasir Arafat, the leader of the Palestinian Authority who was simultaneously Yasin's main ally and rival, campaigned for his release. "I know him," Arafat told Israel. "He will call for an end to the violence."

In 1997, during the Oslo peace process, Israel gave Arafat's claim a try. But while Arafat feted Yasin, the Hamas leader made clear his support for war against Israel and opposition to any peace deal. When Yasin was allowed to travel abroad, he went to Saudi Arabia and other countries to raise money for his armed struggle. Even the European Union condemned the actions of Hamas as terrorist.

After Arafat rejected peace proposals in 2000, Yasin rallied to his side. What followed was a 40-month-plus war on Israel using anti-civilian terrorism as its main instrument. The decision to launch and continue this war—and the strategy used—has brought great suffering and hundreds of casualties on both sides. This decision has actually delayed an end to Israel's occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, brought the destruction of Palestinian infrastructure, and lost an opportunity to establish a Palestinian state.


From your profile of Likud

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Likud and Ariel Sharon are strongly opposed to the Geneva proposal endorsed in Switzerland by non-official Israeli and Palestinian negotiators. The proposal puts forward a possible solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict involving an Israeli withdrawal to 1967 borders.



I just wanted to emphasize that the Geneva proposal mentioned in your first two links is not official in any way and that includes the Palestinian side. Had Arafat (or Yasin for that matter) been a signatory then maybe the leaders of Israel would have been able to take a look at it. As it stands it is the pipe dream of individuals with no political power. The Road Map is what most of the world is pushing, not the Geneva proposal.

From your article on the Shas party (a four year old article)

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The party has never been particularly hawkish on peace process issues, until now promoting a doctrine of withdrawal from occupied lands if that preserves Jewish lives.

Its position on Eretz or Greater Israel is at odds with other ultra-Orthodox movements, which seek to secure Israeli sovereignty over all the lands they believe were promised to the Jews by God, whatever the cost.

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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet :
Good try.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
That's the best you can do?

I just posted, you've barely had time to actually read what I wrote
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet :
I took the time to read your response (only took a minute or two) it wasn't that long.

Like I said - good try and I read the links I sent in their entireity - and many others that I didn't use (as they were simply unsupportable).

I saw that passage you tossed back also and knew it was there.

I recall that there was much commentary at about the time the "unofficial" agreement was proposed expressing concerns about the future and how it was immediately dismissed as being unworkable by IDF senior officers and by Sharon's executive.
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Minuet
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Posted Image
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Fair enough.

I also grow tire of this threat - which is going no where.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
^^^
Somerled,

Minuet did *not* threaten you. ;)
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
^^^ :P
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Fesarius
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Admiral
^^^
But if she did, then I would threaten to become a conductor of Canadian orchestras. ;)
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Fesarius :
Did I come across as being threatened by Minuet's smiley ?
Don't do that - I suspect that could be a crime against humanity (well the autrocity of musical discord anyway - a bit like my singing voice - does Tiny Tim ring a bell ? when I sing I fracture every note.)

Minuet :
:nanner: to you too ! :loling:
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