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| Death of Hamas Leader | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 22 2004, 09:55 AM (1,937 Views) | |
| Minuet | Apr 13 2004, 07:49 AM Post #106 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Why are you so willing to accept that extremists run Israel, but not other countries?? This is exactly the type of anti-semitism I have been talking about. Did you even look at the news accounts earlier in this thread that I refered you to?? Can you point me to a single article on an atrocity commited by Israel (a government or IDF sanctioned atrocity) that has a neutral eyewitness? By this I mean something seen first hand by a reputable reporter and not just a second hand account from a Palestinian extremist. You have yet to PROVE any allegations to me. BTW, killing the subject of this thread does not count as an atrocity any more then killing Osama Bin Laden would. |
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| somerled | Apr 13 2004, 12:02 PM Post #107 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Well, that's not so hard (Minuet), is it not Israelis and IDF government policy to destroy the homes of alleged relations of suspected Palestinian fighters (homes that some of these people have occupied for generations and which belong to people who are innocent) as payback, and to engage in collective severe punishment of entire communities for the actions (to deseige these communities and cut off even emergency services from these communities) in response to the actions small groups. Arbitrary and uncompensated home destructions , making the owners homeless refugees , by the military is something that most people would consider an atrocity. And this original subject is not the first extrajudicial killing the IDF has carried out, and that killing does count (nor has it helped). It is strange that you consider AI as being politically motivated. Most people would not see AI as being overtly politically motivated, unless I guess AI has had the gall to point out infringements of human rights engaged in by their country, or ethnic group - in which case they might be pretty pissed off with the organisation. I have read the links you provided - and I am in the process of checking the sources behind them. When I have considered them properly I will give you my considered conclusions. If extremists do not have too much say in Israeli domestic policy then perhaps you can provide evidence that the policies of the Israeli government and IDF have not been overly or unduely influenced by extremist or fundamentalist lobby groups. (This is probably a hard task so I don't expect an immediate response.) |
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| Minuet | Apr 13 2004, 01:33 PM Post #108 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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^^^Just a note. You started a thread about Sudan, and the lack of publicity, and lack of action in that area. Where have more people died and been displaced. Sudan or the Occupied Territories? And you wonder why I say that the world is picking on Israel unfairly and out of proportion to what happens there?
Homes that are invaded and destroyed are usually chosen because those families are hiding terrorists. They have not been invaded for "payback", that is just more Palestinian propaganda. If I am wrong please provide the first hand NEUTRAL accounts as per what I previously asked for. As for the emergency services. Terrorists have used these "services" to smuggle people and arms. The IDF is well within thier rights to check these vehicles, in the name of security. If the Palestinian extremists truely cared about thier people they would stop using these tactics so that the IDF could tell the good guys from the bad. Your problem is that you can't see how the extremists are setting things up. If they would stop hiding in the civilian population and trying to use them as human shields there would be a lot less innocent deaths on the Palestinian side. The Israelis have every right to protect thier own civilian population. The Palestinians should try to do the same instead of using them as shields. |
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| Minuet | Apr 13 2004, 01:48 PM Post #109 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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You made the charge, it is up to you to provide the evidence to back it up. Innocent until PROVEN guilty. And I have already asked you twice to look at the story about the 14 year old earlier in this thread as proof of the actual policies of the IDF. Have you bothered to read it yet????? You have provided nothing through this whole conversation in the way of backup for your charges while I have provided many links. Your case is non-existant. |
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| somerled | Apr 14 2004, 01:56 AM Post #110 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Minuet: There is a lot stuff out there, once again, a lot of it hatred or politically motivated, hard to find objective information (no wonder you passed the buck). OK here are some pertinent links :Doves Coming Out of the Closet by Rabbi Lerner might be of interest to you and their most recent edition Responses to the Murder of Hamas' Sheikh Yassin says some things of interest regarding extra-judicial killing (murder and assassination). Most stuff available in the web is in Hebrew so not available to me but I have found from Middle East profiles: Likud (Telegraph UK) for those who are not sure - I suspect "transfer" is a euphamism for forceable removal (with all the ramifications of that policy as seen elsewhere). The National Unity-Yisrael Beiteinu Party ( from Israel's kingmakers (BBC), and the Shas, Israel's main ultra-orthodox party Shas: Breaking the Israeli mould (BBC) , and their allies the Degel Hatorah Party (ref Jerusalem Post provided information ) all sound pretty extremist and fundamentalist to me. |
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| Minuet | Apr 14 2004, 08:26 AM Post #111 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Interesting articles. Remember that these are still opinion pieces and even at that I see them accusing the government of making some strategic errors, but there are no accusations of Ethnic Cleansing. I have also said that I don't agree with every move that has been made and if you look at my comments earlier I stated quite clearly that I didn't know if the assasination was a brilliant move or a disaster. Where I still have a problem with your remarks is your accusation of Ethnic Cleansing. All you still have shown is that some people have called for it. Yes there are some Right Wing parties in the Kenneset, and yes, they are allied with the ruling party. Do your research and you will also find some moderate parties in that coalition. They keep each other in check. ETHNIC CLEANSING IS NOT THE POLICY OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT. BTW have you noticed that there has not been a major terrorist incident since Yasin's assasination? Maybe despite all the rhetoric the actual message has finally gotten through to the terrorist leaders. That message being that they are no longer going to be able to hide behind child bombers. If the violence doesn't stop they have to realize that thier own lives are on the line. In your second link there is an interesting piece (also opinion, I know!) by a gentleman by the name of Barry Rubin
From your profile of Likud
I just wanted to emphasize that the Geneva proposal mentioned in your first two links is not official in any way and that includes the Palestinian side. Had Arafat (or Yasin for that matter) been a signatory then maybe the leaders of Israel would have been able to take a look at it. As it stands it is the pipe dream of individuals with no political power. The Road Map is what most of the world is pushing, not the Geneva proposal. From your article on the Shas party (a four year old article)
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| somerled | Apr 14 2004, 08:29 AM Post #112 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Minuet : Good try. |
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| Minuet | Apr 14 2004, 08:34 AM Post #113 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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That's the best you can do? I just posted, you've barely had time to actually read what I wrote |
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| somerled | Apr 14 2004, 09:05 AM Post #114 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Minuet : I took the time to read your response (only took a minute or two) it wasn't that long. Like I said - good try and I read the links I sent in their entireity - and many others that I didn't use (as they were simply unsupportable). I saw that passage you tossed back also and knew it was there. I recall that there was much commentary at about the time the "unofficial" agreement was proposed expressing concerns about the future and how it was immediately dismissed as being unworkable by IDF senior officers and by Sharon's executive. |
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| Minuet | Apr 14 2004, 09:06 AM Post #115 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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| somerled | Apr 14 2004, 09:18 AM Post #116 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Fair enough. I also grow tire of this threat - which is going no where. |
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| Fesarius | Apr 14 2004, 09:22 AM Post #117 |
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Admiral
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^^^ Somerled, Minuet did *not* threaten you.
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| Minuet | Apr 14 2004, 09:25 AM Post #118 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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^^^
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| Fesarius | Apr 14 2004, 09:29 AM Post #119 |
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Admiral
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^^^ But if she did, then I would threaten to become a conductor of Canadian orchestras.
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| somerled | Apr 14 2004, 09:30 AM Post #120 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Fesarius : Did I come across as being threatened by Minuet's smiley ? Don't do that - I suspect that could be a crime against humanity (well the autrocity of musical discord anyway - a bit like my singing voice - does Tiny Tim ring a bell ? when I sing I fracture every note.) Minuet : :nanner: to you too !
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