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Death of Hamas Leader
Topic Started: Mar 22 2004, 09:55 AM (1,938 Views)
Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
What utter bullcrap!!!!!

You are citing Israeli sources on why trade between Israel and the Arab nations is beneficial. You are not citing any Arab sources saying they recognize this and want peace because of it. Citing that trade makes sense and would be good does not prove your point that the Arabs don't want to destroy Israel. All your links show is that ISRAELIS know that peace would be beneficial.

Quote:
 
Getting figures on actual Israeli population is easy - but that is not important in this discussion which is dealing with values and domestic and foreign policy and where we are looking for answers.


Huh????

You used the figures to try and show how overpowering Israel was. Now you say those figures are unimportant? What nonsense. The relative size of Israel and it's population is relevant in showing that they are not the large empirical force you claim them to be. And your outright lie on the numbers shows the lengths you will go to to vilify Israel.

And once again I challenge you to go back and read the posts from a few weeks back. You still owe an apology for the Ethnic Cleansing remarks and the claim that the Israeli government suppresses the media. Both comments were outright lies.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet :

I think this is developing into a pointless exercise - and not worth persuing further - I don't :giveup however arguing about it is not worth the investing the time and effort having people become aggrievated here is worthless.

Like I said - it all boils down to the case of the tail wagging the dog.

Go back and read what I said before getting your nikkers into a knot any further :
what I said was :
Quote:
 
Assassination of leaders you do not like can never be supported in a civilised world or society any more than linching, ethnic cleansing, or cold blooded murder
- I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you only skimmed the post and did not really read it properly , I don't think you purposefully took my statement out of context - or did you ?

I'll have a look and see what I can find regarding Israeli restrictions on information about consequences of Israeli imposed restrictions placed on the Palestinians.
But I am sure you will say they are lying even before I post them.
Here are some to start :

ISRAEL AND THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES (INCLUDING THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY TERRITORIES) -relates restrictions to media

Sites many instances of press restrictions by Israel.

Accreditation rules for journalists to be tightened

RSF calls for cancellation of strict new press card rules (which gag the press)

Palestine:Israel must facilitate not hinder relief (relates restriction on movement of humantanian relief - this is even more disturbing !)

from Visitor Restrictions To The Occupied Territories (- can't visit and observe freely)
Quote:
 
TEXT OF ORDER

Welcome to the State of Israel Information on entry into territories under the control of the Palestinian Authority

1. We would like to bring to your atention, that entry into the territories under the control of the Palestinian Authority, in the Gaza Strip, Judea and Samaria (Area A), is forbidden without the attainment of prior written authorization.

2. Entry into the aforementioned territories, without prior auhtorization may result in legal measures being taken against you, including deportation and refusal of future re-entry into the State of Israel.

3. Those interested in entering the Gaza Strip via the "Erez" crossing are required to fill out a form requesting entry (into the territories controlled by the palestinian Authority) and to submit it to the Foreign Relations Office in the Coordination & Liaison Administration in the Gaza Strip, situated at "Erez" crossing.

4. Requests will be processed with the utmost effrort to authorize them within 5 working days.

5. Additional information can be obtained at the Foreign Relations Office in the Coordination & Liaison Administration in the Gaza Strip reachable by telephone (08-674-1556) or by facsimile (08-689-2613).

6. The submission of a request to authorize entry into the above mentioned areas does not constitute permission to do so until written authorization has been recieved.

END




PS Israeli population 7 million +/- Israel at a glance but unclear if that figure includes non-Jews and the Palestinians who are under Israeli military control or restrictions and other non-citisen residents. So how many Jews are there worldwide ? (I'm guessing 15 - 20 Million , all very strongly emotionally tied to Israel or the idea of Israel). That makes the impact of Isreal's actions even more rediculous on a global scale.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
somerled
Apr 8 2004, 12:11 PM
Minuet :

I think this is developing into a pointless exercise - and not worth persuing further - I don't :giveup however arguing about it is not worth the investing the time and effort having people become aggrievated here is worthless.

Like I said - it all boils down to the case of the tail wagging the dog.

Go back and read what I said before getting your nikkers into a knot any further :
what I said was :
Quote:
 
Assassination of leaders you do not like can never be supported in a civilised world or society any more than linching, ethnic cleansing, or cold blooded murder
- I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you only skimmed the post and did not really read it properly , I don't think you purposefully took my statement out of context - or did you ?


I read every one of your posts carefully. You are the one who has skimmed over things. You don't even remember what you yourself wrote! Do you deny that you wrote the following"

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Nor do I like to see people disposed of their rights and land simply because they are not a certain religion - sounds disturbingly like ethnic cleansing to me .


This is the phrase that insulted me. And to date you have ignored everything I have written about this issue.

You also made the idiotic statement

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We have only the media's say so (Israeli propoganda) to go on that this man was DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for suicide bombers (including young ladies and children) and that he FORCED them to do these terrible things.


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What would you do ? I betting you would attack the invaders at every opportunity , and if you couldn't get at their military infrastructure or government, you might attack their collateral and softer targets. And you would regard yourself as a patriot.


You continually justify the Palestinian's murder of Israelis, but condemn the "murder" of one man by the Israelis.

Hypocrite.

And I am not taking you out of context one bit. Just showing how hypocritical your statements really are.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
I do not support attacks on civilians (any civilians !) , I do however understand how people can be driven by desperation to engage in this kind of thing if they have no other means of getting at who they regard as enemies or invaders. Do the Palestinians have the ability to face down the Israeli Army and take them on in conventional or lower intensity warfare ? No.

I can also see how under these circumstances the fighters could be regarded as terrorists on one side and partriots or freedom fighters from the otherside.

If you can't see that then it's pointless discussing it. If what I said offended you personally , then you have my appologies , but my comments were legitimate observations.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Accusing the Israelis of ethnic cleansing is not a "legitamate observation" It is an outright lie and if you can't see that then you have a major ethical problem.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet :
The information provided by Amnesty Intl The West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip (Denial of Human Rights)

I'll draw your attention to :
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Israeli pressure on Palestinians during the current intifada has included demolition of more than 600 family homes up to the end of February 2002 mostly in the Gaza Strip, but also in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. The practice of demolishing Palestinian houses is long established and discriminatory. The demolitions over the past 18 months appear to be a collective punishment for Palestinian attacks on Israelis or part of a policy of creating wide no-go areas around Israeli settlements. ..... Committee against Torture stated that Israel's policy of closures and its demolitions of Palestinian homes "may, in certain instances, amount to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment" in breach of Article 16 of the United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment which Israel ratified in 1991.


also
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Fourth Geneva Convention Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as protected persons, may not be wilfully killed, tortured, ill-treated or suffer humiliating and degrading treatment. They may not be deported. The occupying power may not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. The property of protected persons may not be destroyed unless such destruction is "rendered absolutely necessary by military operations".

In addition, the Fourth Geneva Convention has a categoric prohibition against collective punishment and reprisals. It states, in Article 33:

"No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.
Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited."

IDF and Israeli settlers (who I would add have no right to be where there are they are settling) choose to regularly ignore these conventions and regularly engage in victimisation and reprisals.

I have found this data in Intifada factsheet (statistics from Palestinian perspective) which speaks for itself.

Also Arbitrary Israeli violations to the Palestinians' right to life which contains disturbing accounts such as
Quote:
 
cases of what the Israeli army describes as "death kill verification" - the extrajudicial execution of those wounded. Amnesty International condemns such practices.

At midnight on 29 March the IDF attacked the Cairo Amman Bank where members of Force 17, a PA security force, engaged them from the third floor. After the IDF had stormed the building, five bodies of members of Force 17 were found; each one had been wounded and shot at close range with a single shot to the head or throat.
In Jenin on 6 April the IDF demolished Palestinian houses over the heads of people who remained inside. Reports from Palestinians within Jenin Refugee Camp were confirmed by a reporter accompanying the IDF. The report of Ron Leshem of the Israeli newspaper Yediot Ahronot, was quoted by Agence France Presse: "Two bulldozers demolish homes and sometimes bury beneath them those who refused to surrender. Pillars of smoke climb out of the camp".



And the use of human shields by the IDF is also disturbing :
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The Israeli forces are reported to have often used Palestinians effectively as human shields, endangering their lives and in violation of international humanitarian law.

Among those used in this way was Majdi Shehadeh, whose house was occupied by Israeli soldiers. He said:
"The IDF came to the house at 4am on Thursday [7 March] and collected the family and put us in one room. I have seven children aged between one and seven. They asked what I had on the roof; I said 'Pigeons'. The soldiers came on to the roof, and my neighbour heard them talking and shot and wounded a soldier. The soldiers started shooting and left the roof. One soldier wanted to kill me but the officer told him not to. Then they used me as a shield to go back on the roof and they placed explosives in the pigeon house and destroyed it. The pigeons were killed and the water tank exploded and water came pouring down. The soldiers started shooting in all directions... They made another entrance into my home and told me to go out and then to open the door of the neighbouring home. I couldn't open it so they broke it down. They used me as a shield to open doors to other houses and eventually let me go back home at 8am."

In a house occupied by Israeli soldiers in Balata camp between 28 February and 4 March, the IDF confined about 40 of the residents to one room and then allegedly told some of the men to stand at windows in the top floor flat, which was frequently being shot at by armed Palestinians.
On 8 April at about 1pm, six IDF soldiers entered al-Baq Mosque in the old city of Nablus, where an emergency clinic had been established. In the clinic were 45 wounded people, four doctors, several volunteers, and 10 corpses. Dr. Zahara el-Wawi, a doctor at the clinic, told the Israeli human rights organization, B'Tselem, that the soldiers entered the mosque with their guns resting on the shoulders of Palestinian civilians who were forced to march in front of the soldiers as "human shields". The soldiers separated the medical staff from the patients, searched the dead bodies, and checked the identities of the injured patients. The Israeli forces are reported to have often used Palestinians effectively as human shields, endangering their lives and in violation of international humanitarian law. 


On the matter of ethnic cleansing - there is a large number of links available - many however are extremist or politically or hatred motivated and use language I do not find reasonable or supportable , the following article discusses this Ethnic cleansing on the Jordan River
Of direct relevance
Quote:
 
An extremist segment of Israeli opinion backs expulsion, which is the implicit goal of most settlers. Frustration over murderous suicide bombings has increased popular support for this brutal option.

U.S. columnist Ben Shapiro also advocates ethnic cleansing: "If you believe that the Jewish state has a right to exist, then you must allow Israel to transfer the Palestinians and the Israeli-Arabs from Judea, Samaria, Baza and Israel proper."

The euphemisms roll off of his tongue. "It's not genocide; it's transfer."

and
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ethnic cleansing means inflicting mass hardship and death. After all, Muslims would have to be forced to abandon all. That would mean wiping out their villages. Destroying their homes and killing some of them.


and also more commentary on the issue : PALESTINE: Israel covers up ethnic cleansing.

Feel free to respond to the above links and extracts and counter them ( if you can ) without being emotional about the issue.

I ask - if Israeli policy towards the Palestinians and "internal" / "domestic" policy does not constitute a form of ethnic cleansing and ethnic/religious persecution - what is it then ? what are it's ultimate goals ?
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Where to begin, where to begin.

First, and you won't like this, but I completely reject your use of Amnesty International as a non-biased, non-partisan source of information. To back this up I have a few links (bold is my emphasis)

Amnesty International - Not a Reliable Source

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Unfortunately, while recently discovering that Palestinian terrorism constitutes the abuse of human rights of its victims, Amnesty has remained reticent about the fact that it is the PLO itself and not simply the Hamas, Jihad and similar Islamist groups, that are responsible for terrorist atrocities.  In recent years the bulk of Palestinian terror, including many suicide bombings, were perpetrated by members of the Fat’h, Al-Aqsa ‘Martyrs,’ and the Tanzim, all PLO factions under the direct personal command and control of Arafat himself.  Amnesty pretends that some amorphous unnamed organizations are conducting Palestinian terror, not the PLO.  While AI is willing to denounce PLO violations of the rights of Arabs, it is all but silent about PLO terrorism and atrocities committed against Jews.  While acknowledging that Palestinian terrorists (but not the PLO) have targeted Israeli children, Amnesty maintains “balance” by insisting that Israel also intentionally targets children, a bit like arguing in the same breath that Nazi German and the Allies in 1944 both killed people. AI has never quite come out with a clear defense of the right of Israel to protect the human right of its children not to be blown to bits by the PLO.



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[1] AI suffers from an acute case of the Moynihan Syndrome.  According to Moynihan’s law, the amount of violations of human rights in a country is always an INVERSE function of the amount of complaints about human rights violations heard from there. The greater the number of complaints being aired, the better protected are human rights in that country.  The reason is obvious.  Those countries in which human rights are the most severely violated are also those where no freedom of speech nor press is permitted.  This explains the AI reticence and almost total absence of denunciation of human rights abuses in places like North Korea and Cambodia.  It also explains why AI apparently had no knowledge of the killing fields in southern Iraq until US and British troops uncovered them in the recent war.



Quote:
 
[3] AI has an academic notion of ethical pureness, which it insists must be applied in the dirty business of war and in the battle against terror.  While paying mere lip service to why terror is not nice, AI refuses to draw the obvious conclusion that those battling against terror must use means that sometimes have unpleasant side affects.  If those fighting terror never use violence, terror wins.  If those fighting terror must never use impure methods that may cause collateral damages, this is the same as saying they give up any struggle against terrorism altogether.



AI refuses to countenance any tradeoffs at all in the war against terror.  If Western countries must choose between suffering endless mass atrocities committed by terrorists or battling terrorism using means that produce some civilian casualties, AI clearly prefers the former choice.



AI has gone so far as to denounce Israel for passing a law that denies Palestinians injured while attacking Israeli troops and civilians the right to sue Israel for compensation in Israeli courts (AI statement from 27 July 1997).


Quote:
 
[6] Yitzhak Rabin himself denounced AI for its anti-Israel bias.  AI repeated refers to imprisoned Palestinian terrorists and murderers as "prisoners of conscience and possible prisoners of conscience".    When Rabin released hundreds of these prisoners after the OSLO signing, he got no pat on his back from AI, and when 25 of these released “prisoners of conscience” were later arrested for participating in terrorist atrocities, AI never said “Ooops”.  AI regular denounces Israel for practicing “torture”, evidently on the basis of assertions by Israel’s own Far Left anti-Israel leftists (including the head of Israel’s own AI offices) and the PLO.  In reality, torture is prohibited both by Israeli law and in practice. Every complaint regarding interrogation practices is thoroughly investigated at the Israel Ministry of Justice.


Aniti-Israel bias at Amnesty International

Quote:
 
Amnesty International (http://www.amnesty.org) has been a frequent critic of Israel, in the forefront of the chorus accusing Israel of a massacre in Jenin which did not occur. John Podhoretz' analysis of their Jenin debacle appeared in the New York Post: http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/46217.htm

At the same time, the organization has been silent about numerous examples of Palestinian human rights violations or failures by the UN to carry out its obligations in the refugee camps. While they are generally well regarded on the world scene, Amnesty International now has a documented record of bias against Israel.



As to your assertions of ethnic cleansing - a quote from your article

Quote:
 
Even worse is talk of ethnic cleansing. An extremist segment of Israeli opinion backs expulsion, which is the implicit goal of most settlers. Frustration over murderous suicide bombings has increased popular support for this brutal option.

U.S. columnist Ben Shapiro also advocates ethnic cleansing: "If you believe that the Jewish state has a right to exist, then you must allow Israel to transfer the Palestinians and the Israeli-Arabs from Judea, Samaria, Baza and Israel proper."



What I see here is not proof of ethnic cleansing, but the fact, which I will not deny, that a statistically insignificant number of extremists advocate it. Along with one idiotic American columnists (I guess the Americans are complicit in ethnic cleansing because of this idiot)

This is the second time you have tried to use the argument that you can accuse Israel of ethnic cleansing because it might occur. You haven't proven a single thing except that you are willing to accept anti-semitic propaganda at face value without doing any type of scholarly research into facts and history.

From the same article of yours:

Quote:
 
Still, in principle separation seems the best answer to stop the killing. For this reason, a security fence makes sense -- if it actually separates Jew from Arab


Quote:
 
After 36 years of occupation the land remains almost exclusively Arab


Gee thats an awful lot of Arabs. If ethnic cleansing has occured wouldn't the land of the occupied territories be almost exclusively Jewish?????? Again, I am talking about current reality, not what "might" happen. Again, I remind you that your quotes are the rantings of an individual, not the policy of the Israeli government. I am still waiting for proof of your allegations.

As to your second article here is an account of what really occured in 1948

The Palestinian Refugees

Or if you prefer, I found this suprisingly non partisan account of what occured in the area. It appears to be neither pro Israeli or pro Palestinian and simply gives an historical account of the region, up to the present day.

A Brief History of Israel and Palestine and the Conflict

You still owe an apology for the ethnic cleansing remarks.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
I'll get back to you on that - one way or another.

Need to check your sources out properly and establish their voracity.

I can say immediately that the following is rubbish :
Quote:
 
Quote:
 

[1] AI suffers from an acute case of the Moynihan Syndrome.  According to Moynihan’s law, the amount of violations of human rights in a country is always an INVERSE function of the amount of complaints about human rights violations heard from there. The greater the number of complaints being aired, the better protected are human rights in that country.  The reason is obvious.  Those countries in which human rights are the most severely violated are also those where no freedom of speech nor press is permitted.  This explains the AI reticence and almost total absence of denunciation of human rights abuses in places like North Korea and Cambodia.  It also explains why AI apparently had no knowledge of the killing fields in southern Iraq until US and British troops uncovered them in the recent war.
:loling: :loling: :rotfl:
In that case Canada must be a terrible place full of concentration camps , roaming bands of ultra-rightwing skin heads who are persecuting everyone who disagrees with or does not look like them. As must NZ and Australia , based on the level of complaints about human rights violations. :rotfl: :loling: :rotfl: How about "where there is smoke there is always fire."


From your first source (FRONTPAGE- wrt voracity of AI
Quote:
 
AI earned a Nobel Prize for its campaigns ( that's good enough for me ! ) on behalf of human rights in 1977.  To AI’s credit it has taken some politically incorrect positions.   It has denounced Iranian persecution of Jews and has issued reports about the dismal state of human rights in Arab countries.   It has spoken out against anti-Jewish attacks in a variety of countries.
however FRONTPAGE seems on first glance and on looking at the information provided by them on their editorial staff and speakers to be politically motivated and very ultra-right wing biassed. As you sure they aren't just ranting ?

Your second source IsraelNow Task Force , is definitely biassed and politically a very pro-Israel (I guess you'd agree on that point) propoganda source. I will however look more deeply at this mob and establish their "truthfulness".

Your third source was indeed interesting.Thankyou for posting that one. I'm not sure about the accuracy of some of the claims made therein and think that perhaps the Palestinians may see the history of Israel somewhat differently and they may well dispute some of the claims made by the writers American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise who are very pro-Israeli propoganderists again.

The fourth source MidEastWeb Web Gate Way Site is very much more interesting and warants rigorous scrutiny and concideration of it's content, goals and behind the scenes values. This will take a little time.

Like I said - I'll get back you one way or another.

You still haven't answered my questions
Quote:
 
if Israeli policy towards the Palestinians and "internal" / "domestic" policy does not constitute a form of ethnic cleansing and ethnic/religious persecution - what is it then ? what are it's ultimate goals ?
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Ok Mr. Know-it-all, since you think that where there is smoke there is fire let's try Amnesty International's main web page. Surely you would agree that the worst offenders should be getting the most publicity from this organization.

Amnesty International

Oh look, on the left side of the page is thier list of latest reports. TOP on the list is the United States. Click on the article and it goes to this page UNITED STATES OF AMERICA Go to the bottom of the page and you find a long list of articles on the US. This from the country that invented the idea of a free press.

As for Canada - Check out this page on the website Canada

Or how about Australia

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: That's a long long list for your country!

Do you honestly believe that these three counties are hotbeds of horrible happenings. Yet they get a MAJOR amount of publicity for what AI sees as human rights violations. Why, because the major FREE media in those countries is willing to look at themselves in a critical manner and point out flaws to thier government. My point earlier was not that Israel is absolutely perfect and has made no errors in judgement. My point was that the amount of condemnation received was not in proportion to the errors commited. Look up Palestine and you get a huge list condemning Israel, not Palestine. Type in Israel and you get a second long long list.

Compare these lists to those that my source compared to Cambodia and North Korea. While both are listed, both also get far less publicity they Israel. Heck, North Korea barely gets any mention at all. Australia with it's free press is condemned far more then Korea!!!!

Where there's smoke there is a free press willing to publicize it and make it look like a major forest fire.

As to your being so proud of AI getting a Nobel prize, please remember that Yassir Arafat was also given one. Not great company to be in, IMHO. :no:

As to your "question"

Quote:
 
I ask - if Israeli policy towards the Palestinians and "internal" / "domestic" policy does not constitute a form of ethnic cleansing and ethnic/religious persecution - what is it then ? what are it's ultimate goals ?


As I have shown the policy is NOT as you have stated. You stated the rantings of individuals who are NOT members of the Kenneset and do NOT represent the government of Israel in any way. The internal and domestic policies goals are security and ultimately, peace. The purpose of the wall is to attempt to define borders. It is a starting point only. Most of the "wall" is actually fence and can be taken down and moved if only the Palestinians would agree to negotiate. As long as they refuse to negotiate in good faith they are forcing Israel to seek a unilateral solution.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet - AI's list for Australia is largely legitimate and for fair minded Australians indicative of the inequitable and disgraceful foreign policies (regarding refugees coming by small boats, and our indigenous peoples) which is national scandal and shameful. I and a great many Australians would agree with their concerns.
Every single one of these issues listed have been the result of the Howard Liberal/National Coalision Government's retrograde and harsh policies. The sooner we are rid of them the better.

But it was a good try at point scoring - you've probably offended Proton.

As to the other nations mentioned - interesting but not relevent to the discussion (except the USA - of particular concern is the detention incognito of the POWs / Captives in Guantánamo Bay under excessly stern and dehumanising conditions (reminiscent of Stalinist gulags and Nazi concentration camps) and in direct contravention of the Geneva Convention and the plans to try these people by kangaroo courts (oops! military tribunals) unless they happen to be nationals of some most favoured allie nations or nations the USA thinks could be useful in which case they might get "special" treatment if it's asked for).


Like I said - where there is smoke there is fire (and there's lots of it in Israel and the occupied territories).

As to AI being awarded the Nobel Peace Prize - they are very discerning and apply a great deal of scrutiny before making awards - this is why the award is so highly regarded - like I said - if they have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize then that is good enough proof for me that they are people worth listening to.

I am still looking closely at the information and the links you provided and am not yet in position to change my view, though I am open minded on the matter providing I can be convinced otherwize.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
As usual you have missed the entire point.

I was not insulting Australia in any way shape or form by pointing out how many times they show up on AI reports.

I was lamenting how SELDOM some countries with MAJOR problems are censured, and noting how unbalanced the coverage is.

But of course this subtlety goes right over your head.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet :
Have I ?

We are not discussing the matter of human rights abuses in other countries, we can in another thread if you like.

What we are discussing is Israeli human rights abuses and the alleged persecution of the Palestinians by the IDF and Israeli settlers.

Seems to me you are perhaps trying to deflect attention elsewhere because you appreciate that the behaviours described by AI and others (the IDF and certain Israeli settlers and a hardcore of religious fanatics who are bent of expelling the Palestinians one way or other) is indefenceable.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
^^^You still don't get it

Quote:
 
Seems to me you are perhaps trying to deflect attention elsewhere because you appreciate that the behaviours described by AI and others (the IDF and certain Israeli settlers and a hardcore of religious fanatics who are bent of expelling the Palestinians one way or other) is indefenceable.


You are taking the statements made by those idividuals and trying to make it look like this is the policy of the Israeli government.

I do not condone the behaviours of the hardcore religious fanatics on either side of the issue. But they do not control the government. And you should do a real study of the methods used by the IDF and not go by Palestinian "accounts" Go back and read the story about the 14 year old boy earlier in this thread. That is far more indicitive of the typical "methods" used by the IDF.

I can't believe how gullible you are falling for propaganda.
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
Let me put it this way somerland, would you take the beliefs of the Ku Klux Klan to be the beliefs of Americans at large?
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Doc :
I would hope the KKK is not representative of the vast majority of Americans , just as I would hope Bush Jr's views or fundamentalists are not either.

Minuet:
Are you sure that these squeeky wheels and extremists and fundamentalists in Israel don't have more say in the formulation of Israeli law and domestic policy (towards the Palestinians) through lobby groups and political "donations" ?

The Kenesit is pretty fragmented from what I have heard and read.

I know you reject the accounts given by AI, but AI doesn't have anything to gain by lying or producing propoganda, whereas the Israeli Govt (and the Palestinian's too) have something to gain. And the Palestinians are definitely the underdogs and are always the great loosers.
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