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| Death of Hamas Leader | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 22 2004, 09:55 AM (1,938 Views) | |
| Minuet | Apr 8 2004, 10:05 AM Post #91 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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What utter bullcrap!!!!! You are citing Israeli sources on why trade between Israel and the Arab nations is beneficial. You are not citing any Arab sources saying they recognize this and want peace because of it. Citing that trade makes sense and would be good does not prove your point that the Arabs don't want to destroy Israel. All your links show is that ISRAELIS know that peace would be beneficial.
Huh???? You used the figures to try and show how overpowering Israel was. Now you say those figures are unimportant? What nonsense. The relative size of Israel and it's population is relevant in showing that they are not the large empirical force you claim them to be. And your outright lie on the numbers shows the lengths you will go to to vilify Israel. And once again I challenge you to go back and read the posts from a few weeks back. You still owe an apology for the Ethnic Cleansing remarks and the claim that the Israeli government suppresses the media. Both comments were outright lies. |
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| somerled | Apr 8 2004, 11:11 AM Post #92 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Minuet : I think this is developing into a pointless exercise - and not worth persuing further - I don't :giveup however arguing about it is not worth the investing the time and effort having people become aggrievated here is worthless. Like I said - it all boils down to the case of the tail wagging the dog. Go back and read what I said before getting your nikkers into a knot any further : what I said was : - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you only skimmed the post and did not really read it properly , I don't think you purposefully took my statement out of context - or did you ? I'll have a look and see what I can find regarding Israeli restrictions on information about consequences of Israeli imposed restrictions placed on the Palestinians. But I am sure you will say they are lying even before I post them. Here are some to start : ISRAEL AND THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES (INCLUDING THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY TERRITORIES) -relates restrictions to media Sites many instances of press restrictions by Israel. Accreditation rules for journalists to be tightened RSF calls for cancellation of strict new press card rules (which gag the press) Palestine:Israel must facilitate not hinder relief (relates restriction on movement of humantanian relief - this is even more disturbing !) from Visitor Restrictions To The Occupied Territories (- can't visit and observe freely)
PS Israeli population 7 million +/- Israel at a glance but unclear if that figure includes non-Jews and the Palestinians who are under Israeli military control or restrictions and other non-citisen residents. So how many Jews are there worldwide ? (I'm guessing 15 - 20 Million , all very strongly emotionally tied to Israel or the idea of Israel). That makes the impact of Isreal's actions even more rediculous on a global scale. |
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| Minuet | Apr 8 2004, 12:44 PM Post #93 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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I read every one of your posts carefully. You are the one who has skimmed over things. You don't even remember what you yourself wrote! Do you deny that you wrote the following"
This is the phrase that insulted me. And to date you have ignored everything I have written about this issue. You also made the idiotic statement
You continually justify the Palestinian's murder of Israelis, but condemn the "murder" of one man by the Israelis. Hypocrite. And I am not taking you out of context one bit. Just showing how hypocritical your statements really are. |
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| somerled | Apr 8 2004, 11:46 PM Post #94 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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I do not support attacks on civilians (any civilians !) , I do however understand how people can be driven by desperation to engage in this kind of thing if they have no other means of getting at who they regard as enemies or invaders. Do the Palestinians have the ability to face down the Israeli Army and take them on in conventional or lower intensity warfare ? No. I can also see how under these circumstances the fighters could be regarded as terrorists on one side and partriots or freedom fighters from the otherside. If you can't see that then it's pointless discussing it. If what I said offended you personally , then you have my appologies , but my comments were legitimate observations. |
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| Minuet | Apr 9 2004, 08:21 AM Post #95 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Accusing the Israelis of ethnic cleansing is not a "legitamate observation" It is an outright lie and if you can't see that then you have a major ethical problem. |
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| somerled | Apr 9 2004, 10:00 PM Post #96 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Minuet : The information provided by Amnesty Intl The West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip (Denial of Human Rights) I'll draw your attention to :
also
IDF and Israeli settlers (who I would add have no right to be where there are they are settling) choose to regularly ignore these conventions and regularly engage in victimisation and reprisals. I have found this data in Intifada factsheet (statistics from Palestinian perspective) which speaks for itself. Also Arbitrary Israeli violations to the Palestinians' right to life which contains disturbing accounts such as
And the use of human shields by the IDF is also disturbing :
On the matter of ethnic cleansing - there is a large number of links available - many however are extremist or politically or hatred motivated and use language I do not find reasonable or supportable , the following article discusses this Ethnic cleansing on the Jordan River Of direct relevance
and
and also more commentary on the issue : PALESTINE: Israel covers up ethnic cleansing. Feel free to respond to the above links and extracts and counter them ( if you can ) without being emotional about the issue. I ask - if Israeli policy towards the Palestinians and "internal" / "domestic" policy does not constitute a form of ethnic cleansing and ethnic/religious persecution - what is it then ? what are it's ultimate goals ? |
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| Minuet | Apr 10 2004, 10:39 AM Post #97 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Where to begin, where to begin. First, and you won't like this, but I completely reject your use of Amnesty International as a non-biased, non-partisan source of information. To back this up I have a few links (bold is my emphasis) Amnesty International - Not a Reliable Source
Aniti-Israel bias at Amnesty International
As to your assertions of ethnic cleansing - a quote from your article
What I see here is not proof of ethnic cleansing, but the fact, which I will not deny, that a statistically insignificant number of extremists advocate it. Along with one idiotic American columnists (I guess the Americans are complicit in ethnic cleansing because of this idiot) This is the second time you have tried to use the argument that you can accuse Israel of ethnic cleansing because it might occur. You haven't proven a single thing except that you are willing to accept anti-semitic propaganda at face value without doing any type of scholarly research into facts and history. From the same article of yours:
Gee thats an awful lot of Arabs. If ethnic cleansing has occured wouldn't the land of the occupied territories be almost exclusively Jewish?????? Again, I am talking about current reality, not what "might" happen. Again, I remind you that your quotes are the rantings of an individual, not the policy of the Israeli government. I am still waiting for proof of your allegations. As to your second article here is an account of what really occured in 1948 The Palestinian Refugees Or if you prefer, I found this suprisingly non partisan account of what occured in the area. It appears to be neither pro Israeli or pro Palestinian and simply gives an historical account of the region, up to the present day. A Brief History of Israel and Palestine and the Conflict You still owe an apology for the ethnic cleansing remarks. |
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| somerled | Apr 10 2004, 08:39 PM Post #98 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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I'll get back to you on that - one way or another. Need to check your sources out properly and establish their voracity. I can say immediately that the following is rubbish :
In that case Canada must be a terrible place full of concentration camps , roaming bands of ultra-rightwing skin heads who are persecuting everyone who disagrees with or does not look like them. As must NZ and Australia , based on the level of complaints about human rights violations. How about "where there is smoke there is always fire."From your first source (FRONTPAGE- wrt voracity of AI however FRONTPAGE seems on first glance and on looking at the information provided by them on their editorial staff and speakers to be politically motivated and very ultra-right wing biassed. As you sure they aren't just ranting ? Your second source IsraelNow Task Force , is definitely biassed and politically a very pro-Israel (I guess you'd agree on that point) propoganda source. I will however look more deeply at this mob and establish their "truthfulness". Your third source was indeed interesting.Thankyou for posting that one. I'm not sure about the accuracy of some of the claims made therein and think that perhaps the Palestinians may see the history of Israel somewhat differently and they may well dispute some of the claims made by the writers American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise who are very pro-Israeli propoganderists again. The fourth source MidEastWeb Web Gate Way Site is very much more interesting and warants rigorous scrutiny and concideration of it's content, goals and behind the scenes values. This will take a little time. Like I said - I'll get back you one way or another. You still haven't answered my questions
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| Minuet | Apr 11 2004, 09:08 AM Post #99 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Ok Mr. Know-it-all, since you think that where there is smoke there is fire let's try Amnesty International's main web page. Surely you would agree that the worst offenders should be getting the most publicity from this organization. Amnesty International Oh look, on the left side of the page is thier list of latest reports. TOP on the list is the United States. Click on the article and it goes to this page UNITED STATES OF AMERICA Go to the bottom of the page and you find a long list of articles on the US. This from the country that invented the idea of a free press. As for Canada - Check out this page on the website Canada Or how about Australia That's a long long list for your country!Do you honestly believe that these three counties are hotbeds of horrible happenings. Yet they get a MAJOR amount of publicity for what AI sees as human rights violations. Why, because the major FREE media in those countries is willing to look at themselves in a critical manner and point out flaws to thier government. My point earlier was not that Israel is absolutely perfect and has made no errors in judgement. My point was that the amount of condemnation received was not in proportion to the errors commited. Look up Palestine and you get a huge list condemning Israel, not Palestine. Type in Israel and you get a second long long list. Compare these lists to those that my source compared to Cambodia and North Korea. While both are listed, both also get far less publicity they Israel. Heck, North Korea barely gets any mention at all. Australia with it's free press is condemned far more then Korea!!!! Where there's smoke there is a free press willing to publicize it and make it look like a major forest fire. As to your being so proud of AI getting a Nobel prize, please remember that Yassir Arafat was also given one. Not great company to be in, IMHO. As to your "question"
As I have shown the policy is NOT as you have stated. You stated the rantings of individuals who are NOT members of the Kenneset and do NOT represent the government of Israel in any way. The internal and domestic policies goals are security and ultimately, peace. The purpose of the wall is to attempt to define borders. It is a starting point only. Most of the "wall" is actually fence and can be taken down and moved if only the Palestinians would agree to negotiate. As long as they refuse to negotiate in good faith they are forcing Israel to seek a unilateral solution. |
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| somerled | Apr 11 2004, 01:08 PM Post #100 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Minuet - AI's list for Australia is largely legitimate and for fair minded Australians indicative of the inequitable and disgraceful foreign policies (regarding refugees coming by small boats, and our indigenous peoples) which is national scandal and shameful. I and a great many Australians would agree with their concerns. Every single one of these issues listed have been the result of the Howard Liberal/National Coalision Government's retrograde and harsh policies. The sooner we are rid of them the better. But it was a good try at point scoring - you've probably offended Proton. As to the other nations mentioned - interesting but not relevent to the discussion (except the USA - of particular concern is the detention incognito of the POWs / Captives in Guantánamo Bay under excessly stern and dehumanising conditions (reminiscent of Stalinist gulags and Nazi concentration camps) and in direct contravention of the Geneva Convention and the plans to try these people by kangaroo courts (oops! military tribunals) unless they happen to be nationals of some most favoured allie nations or nations the USA thinks could be useful in which case they might get "special" treatment if it's asked for). Like I said - where there is smoke there is fire (and there's lots of it in Israel and the occupied territories). As to AI being awarded the Nobel Peace Prize - they are very discerning and apply a great deal of scrutiny before making awards - this is why the award is so highly regarded - like I said - if they have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize then that is good enough proof for me that they are people worth listening to. I am still looking closely at the information and the links you provided and am not yet in position to change my view, though I am open minded on the matter providing I can be convinced otherwize. |
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| Minuet | Apr 11 2004, 01:18 PM Post #101 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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As usual you have missed the entire point. I was not insulting Australia in any way shape or form by pointing out how many times they show up on AI reports. I was lamenting how SELDOM some countries with MAJOR problems are censured, and noting how unbalanced the coverage is. But of course this subtlety goes right over your head. |
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| somerled | Apr 12 2004, 08:40 AM Post #102 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Minuet : Have I ? We are not discussing the matter of human rights abuses in other countries, we can in another thread if you like. What we are discussing is Israeli human rights abuses and the alleged persecution of the Palestinians by the IDF and Israeli settlers. Seems to me you are perhaps trying to deflect attention elsewhere because you appreciate that the behaviours described by AI and others (the IDF and certain Israeli settlers and a hardcore of religious fanatics who are bent of expelling the Palestinians one way or other) is indefenceable. |
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| Minuet | Apr 12 2004, 09:42 AM Post #103 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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^^^You still don't get it
You are taking the statements made by those idividuals and trying to make it look like this is the policy of the Israeli government. I do not condone the behaviours of the hardcore religious fanatics on either side of the issue. But they do not control the government. And you should do a real study of the methods used by the IDF and not go by Palestinian "accounts" Go back and read the story about the 14 year old boy earlier in this thread. That is far more indicitive of the typical "methods" used by the IDF. I can't believe how gullible you are falling for propaganda. |
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| doctortobe | Apr 12 2004, 11:27 AM Post #104 |
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Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
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Let me put it this way somerland, would you take the beliefs of the Ku Klux Klan to be the beliefs of Americans at large? |
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| somerled | Apr 12 2004, 10:08 PM Post #105 |
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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Doc : I would hope the KKK is not representative of the vast majority of Americans , just as I would hope Bush Jr's views or fundamentalists are not either. Minuet: Are you sure that these squeeky wheels and extremists and fundamentalists in Israel don't have more say in the formulation of Israeli law and domestic policy (towards the Palestinians) through lobby groups and political "donations" ? The Kenesit is pretty fragmented from what I have heard and read. I know you reject the accounts given by AI, but AI doesn't have anything to gain by lying or producing propoganda, whereas the Israeli Govt (and the Palestinian's too) have something to gain. And the Palestinians are definitely the underdogs and are always the great loosers. |
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