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Death of Hamas Leader
Topic Started: Mar 22 2004, 09:55 AM (1,939 Views)
Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
^^^I have only one question for you.

When was the last time there was a resolution condemning the Palestinian terrorists? Condemning Bin Laden doesn't count, I am specifically talking about Palestinians in this post.

The US is only keeping things even in my opinion.
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ds9074
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Admiral
Why doesnt the US or Israel put up such a resolution? Anyway the draft resolution that the US just rejected condemed "all attacks against any civilians as well as all acts of violence and destruction".

Its going to be taken to the General Assembly where no-one has a veto.
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
ds9074
Apr 3 2004, 11:03 AM
Why doesnt the US or Israel put up such a resolution? Anyway the draft resolution that the US just rejected condemed "all attacks against any civilians as well as all acts of violence and destruction".

Its going to be taken to the General Assembly where no-one has a veto.

Why doesn't Britain?
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ds9074
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Admiral
Yes why doesnt it, and why will it not vote for a resolution which the US doesnt like?
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
DS, you are completely missing my point about the hypocrisy of the resolution. That is why the US vetoes these resolutions. Your comment that the resolution comdemned "all attacks against any civilians as well as all acts of violence and destruction" would be fine if it was a general resolution, but it is a resolution about a specific incident and condemns a specific nation, Israel.

I stand by my statements earlier in this thread regarding the utter uselessness of a body that condemns free nations, but lets others get away with murder. The Israelies may not do things the way the way you like, but they have the right to defend themselves against those who would murder them.
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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
Minuet
Apr 3 2004, 11:33 AM
DS, you are completely missing my point about the hypocrisy of the resolution. That is why the US vetoes these resolutions. Your comment that the resolution comdemned "all attacks against any civilians as well as all acts of violence and destruction" would be fine if it was a general resolution, but it is a resolution about a specific incident and condemns a specific nation, Israel.

I stand by my statements earlier in this thread regarding the utter uselessness of a body that condemns free nations, but lets others get away with murder. The Israelies may not do things the way the way you like, but they have the right to defend themselves against those who would murder them.

Good point ... for a Canook. ;) ;) :P :kiss:
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
I promised when I had the time I would come back to this thread.

The upshot of what I have found and heard , and on consideration , is that the situation is that we have a case of the tail wagging the dog.

What do I mean ? In brief we have 15 - 20 million people who claim Jewish ethnicity who's leadership and military are recousetrant and are acting in an overty aggressive manners towards their neighbours and who are using very dubious historical claims to justify their territorial claims in areas they have no right to, and justify their military actions and domestic policy, and who are taking advantage of their genocide credit to blackmail (well maybe blackmail is too strong a word) / to compel / the rest of the world to accept behaviour that would be regarded as totally unacceptable / criminal if engaged in by another nation state. (As to oppose Israeli domestic and foreign policy attracts allegations of anti-semitism - something that is very distasteful to fair minded people.)

The troubles in the middle east affect us all because Israeli recousetrance and domestic policy effects us all by contributing to ever increasing resentment on the part of Islamic peoples and contributing a strong incentive for domestic terrorists in Israel / Palestine (or freedom fighters if you are a Palestinian or one of their allies ) and for international terrorists elsewhere. (I site 911 as something that can be linked (indirectly perhaps) and the situation in Iraq is to some extent also.)

Can someone please explain why the rest of the world should allow the situation in Israel to fester on and give good reasons why the Israeli and Palestinians should not be (militarily forced / compelled if necessary) to form a single democratic non-secular nationstate where ethnic jews and ethnic Palestinians have fully equal rights and proportional representation in a Federal system, and why it is so abhorent to consider sending in multinational peace keeping forces to enforce a peace and ensure fair and equitable treatment for all people living in Israel and what's left of Palestinian territory ?

(ds9074 has provided some strong evidence of what I mean by the tail wagging the dog.)

This is intended as a discussion point and not as an attack.
I will locate links later if these are requested.

Also - now some of the dust has settled - and the press has lost interest - how did murdering the Hamas leader help the situation in Israel and the middle east ? (especially since the replacement leader of Hamas seems even more hardline than the one the Israelis assassinated).
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Admiralbill_gomec
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somerled
Apr 8 2004, 07:30 AM
I promised when I had the time I would come back to this thread.

The upshot of what I have found and heard , and on consideration , is that the situation is that we have a case of the tail wagging the dog.

What do I mean ? In brief we have 15 - 20 million people who claim Jewish ethnicity who's leadership and military are recousetrant and are acting in an overty aggressive manners towards their neighbours and who are using very dubious historical claims to justify their actions and who are taking advantage of their genocide credit to blackmail (maybe blackmail is too strong a word) / compel the rest of the world to accept behaviour that would be regarded as totally unacceptable / criminal if engaged in by another nation state.  (As to oppose Israeli domestic and foreign policity attracts allegations of anti-semetism - something that is very distasteful to fair minded people.)
The troubles in the middle east affect us all , Israeli recousetrance and domestic policy effects us all - and the effect is not positive. (I site 911 as something that can be linked (indirectly perhaps) and the situation in Iraq is to some extent also.)

Can someone please explain why the rest of the world should allow the situation in Israel to fester on and give good reasons why the Israeli and Palestinians should not be (militarily forced / compelled if necessary) to form a single democratic non-secular nationstate where ethnic jews and ethnic Palestinians have fully equal rights and proportional representation in a Federal system, and why it is so abhorent to consider sending in multinational peace keeping forces to enforce a peace and ensure fair and equitable treatment for all people living in Israel and what's left of Palestinian territory ?

(ds9074 has strong evidence of what I mean)

This is intended as a discussion point and not as an attack.
I will locate links later if these are requested.

Also - now some of the dust has settled - and the press has lost interest - how did murdering the Hamas leader help the situation in Israel and the middle east ? (especially since the replacement leader of Hamas seems even more hardline than the one the Israelis assassinated).

Of course the Israelis have been surrounded by "neighbors" whose chief goal is to drive Israel into the sea.

Can you blame them? (Israel, for being both defensive and preemptive.)

Funny that I never see Israeli homicide bombers destroying Palestinian restaurants or buses.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Bill :
Israel does not need to employ suicide bombers, they send in Apachies , and heavy armour instead with the authority of the Israeli government to destroy homes, rocket crowded streets to take out high priority assassination targets and they have perhaps the most powerful military in the region (excluding the occupation forces in Iraq) to use in their acts of hostility and to put down resistance to their domestic policy.

Do all their neighbouring states in the region still wish to drive the jews into the sea ? Where is your current evidence for that claim , most these countries trade with Israel now - and trade is a strong incentive to get on.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
somerled
Apr 8 2004, 08:30 AM
I promised when I had the time I would come back to this thread.

The upshot of what I have found and heard , and on consideration , is that the situation is that we have a case of the tail wagging the dog.

What do I mean ? In brief we have 15 - 20 million people who claim Jewish ethnicity who's leadership and military are recousetrant and are acting in an overty aggressive manners towards their neighbours and who are using very dubious historical claims to justify their territorial claims in areas they have no right to, and justify their military actions and domestic policy, and who are taking advantage of their genocide credit to blackmail (well maybe blackmail is too strong a word) / to compel / the rest of the world to accept behaviour that would be regarded as totally unacceptable / criminal if engaged in by another nation state. (As to oppose Israeli domestic and foreign policy attracts allegations of anti-semitism - something that is very distasteful to fair minded people.)

The troubles in the middle east affect us all because Israeli recousetrance and domestic policy effects us all by contributing to ever increasing resentment on the part of Islamic peoples and contributing a strong incentive for domestic terrorists in Israel / Palestine (or freedom fighters if you are a Palestinian or one of their allies ) and for international terrorists elsewhere. (I site 911 as something that can be linked (indirectly perhaps) and the situation in Iraq is to some extent also.)

Can someone please explain why the rest of the world should allow the situation in Israel to fester on and give good reasons why the Israeli and Palestinians should not be (militarily forced / compelled if necessary) to form a single democratic non-secular nationstate where ethnic jews and ethnic Palestinians have fully equal rights and proportional representation in a Federal system, and why it is so abhorent to consider sending in multinational peace keeping forces to enforce a peace and ensure fair and equitable treatment for all people living in Israel and what's left of Palestinian territory ?

(ds9074 has provided some strong evidence of what I mean by the tail wagging the dog.)

This is intended as a discussion point and not as an attack.
I will locate links later if these are requested.

Also - now some of the dust has settled - and the press has lost interest - how did murdering the Hamas leader help the situation in Israel and the middle east ? (especially since the replacement leader of Hamas seems even more hardline than the one the Israelis assassinated).

Somerled, I would be able to take you a lot more seriously if you could get a very simple fact, like the population of Israel, correct. Your level of scholarship on this issue is non exsistant.

You have more then doubled the total population of the country to show how tough and terrorizing the Jews are. The fact is that the total population of the country including approximately 20% Arab Israelies is only around 6 million. Equal to (or even less then) the number killed by the Nazis.

This just shows how utterly ridiculous your entire argument is. Israel is a tiny sliver of land in the midst of overwhelmingly Arab owned lands.

And you know what else I think. I think you look like a complete fool for waiting 2 weeks and then coming back and basically trying to change the subject without commenting directly on the issues we were discussing previously. Are you ready to apologize yet for your utterly ridiculous and unfounded charges of ethnic cleansing?
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
somerled
Apr 8 2004, 08:51 AM
Do all their neighbouring states in the region still wish to drive the jews into the sea ? Where is your current evidence for that claim , most these countries trade with Israel now - and trade is a strong incentive to get on.

Once again you haven't done your homework.

Your comments are completely false. MOST of these countries do not trade with Israel. Officially MOST of these countries are still at war with Israel and will not sign peace treaties. (Egypt excepted of course)

If you have proof to the contrary please provide links and sources.
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Admiralbill_gomec
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somerled
Apr 8 2004, 07:51 AM
Bill :
Israel does not need to employ suicide bombers, they send in Apachies , and heavy armour instead with the authority of the Israeli government to destroy homes, rocket crowded streets to take out high priority assassination targets and they have perhaps the most powerful military in the region (excluding the occupation forces in Iraq) to use in their acts of hostility and to put down resistance to their domestic policy.

Do all their neighbouring states in the region still wish to drive the jews into the sea ? Where is your current evidence for that claim , most these countries trade with Israel now - and trade is a strong incentive to get on.

Oh please, which of Israel's neighbors have trade relations? Syria? Nope. Saudi? Nope? Lebanon? Nope. Jordan? Nope. I don't know about Egypt.

The Palestinian Authority STILL calls for the destruction of Israel in its charter. Several organizations, like Hamas, still call for the destruction of Israel (that's where I got the "push Israel into the sea" line).

You're all wet.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet :
I had this one up my sleave Is There a Secret Arab-Israeli Trade? by Prof Ephraim Kleiman the Don Patinkin Professor of Economics at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
There is substantial trade between Israel and her neighbours even if it is illegal to trade with "enemy states". If there is will to make money - there is always a way.

There is a long biblographic list at the end of his paper you might like to follow up if you want to more.


And TRADE POTENTIAL IN THE MIDDLE EAST: SOME OPTIMISTIC FINDINGS by Paul Rivlin - senior fellow at The Moshe Dayan Center for Middle East and African Studies, Tel Aviv University. (Paper is dated 2000)

and
Foreign Trade Statistics Monthly (Israeli) lists Jordon as formal trading partner, there will be others in that region if Israeli products are attactive or desireable.

Want more?
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
So now you cite black market trading as proof that the Arabs want the Israelis around? :loling: :loling: :loling:

Ok, Jordan trades as well as Egypt, but what of the others?

Until the Arab nations as a whole stop calling for the destruction of Israel then war will continue.

And you are still ignoring our previous conversation and your complete lack of knowledge about Israel as evidenced by your not even being able to get the population correct. You are focusing on a minor issue because it's the only one you can back up, and not very well at that.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
None the less - it IS trade .
Quote:
 
ie Israel's access to Arab markets results less from ruse than from the globalization of trade. The markets for many components in such items as computer chips, printed circuits, or even oil and chemicals are global, with items produced in different countries easily substituted for each other in the manufacturing of the final product. Once a firm purchases Israeli-made components, it is virtually impossible to ensure that they will not be carried by products sold to Arab countries. It is not even possible to spot such component parts without dismantling the final good in question and, often, not even then.





Getting figures on actual Israeli population is easy - but that is not important in this discussion which is dealing with values and domestic and foreign policy and where we are looking for answers.
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