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Death of Hamas Leader
Topic Started: Mar 22 2004, 09:55 AM (1,940 Views)
Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
somerled
Mar 24 2004, 06:53 PM
Bill :
We have only the media's say so (Israeli propoganda) to go on that this man was DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for suicide bombers (including young ladies and children) and that he FORCED them to do these terrible things.

Israeli credibility on this matter is very poor.

I have been trying to be somewhat nice in my explanations - but for goodness sakes if you don't believe that this man is responsible for terrorist activities you must be a complete idiot. Even the Palestinians will admit his guilt, they just don't see it as wrong.

Your comments in this thread are so full of bullshit and anti-semitic propaganda that it is completely unbelievable.

And you haven't even shown the courage to directly comment on my last set of remarks to you. I have shown that Israel is not guilty of any of the ridiculous charges you have thrown at them (ethnic cleansing and not allowing Arabs full citizenship) yet you ignore my comments and come back with more baseless charges.

I am completely insulted and disgusted with your level of discussion.
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Sgt. Jaggs
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How about a Voyager Movie
It never ends
16 year old Palestinian
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet :

I guess you just can not see the forest for the trees as you are too close to the problem.

I didn't say he wasn't someway involved in the intafardda (sp ?) or handn't been involved in terrorism (or freedom fighting if you take the side of the Palestinian people).
What I was saying was that the press and media have in the past taken a very biassed view when it comes to the conflict between the Palestinians and Israeli, often very biassed towards the Israelis in the contemporary climate particularly since the first Gulf War, noteably because the Israelis have are very sophisticated and effective propaganda machine and the means of preventing alternative views and perhaps unfavourable commentary from seeing the light of day through intimidation or other means.

If what I have said sounded antisemitic then there is not a lot I can do about that, that is your value judgement and not mine , its does however seem that when ever people put forward opinions and pose propositions that are politically distasteful or not politically pro-Israel then allegations of antisemitism sooner or later are brought to bare in order to silence these views. That does not wash, and does not help the larger issue at hand.

It wasn't so long ago that the leadership of what became the state of Israel were also regarded as terrorists and we should not forget that.

Didn't see your comments - so in response
Quote:
 
Number one, if you think ethnic cleansing is going on here you are a bigger fool then I thought. Go back to school and study some history and learn what ethnic cleansing actually is. This situation does not come close to Nazi Germany, Kosovo, or Rwanda. It is an insult to use the term ethnic cleansing when describing the situation in Israel.

Well not to extent of exterminating people (one hopes it will never come to that, but no-one knows what might happen in the future if an ultra-radical far-right-wing party somehow gained power in the Kenesset), however, forcing large numbers of people to become refugees in their own land and compelling them to live in overpopulated and poorly serviced pockets (ghettoes) and in abject poverty IS NOT FAIR AND RIGHT - why do you this is OK ?

Quote:
 
Second, your idea of the two peoples living side by side shows your ignorance of the situation at hand. Did you know that there are already Muslim Arabs that are equal and full citizens of Israel?? And since Israel is a full representative democracy there are Arabs in the Kenesset. Of course you didn't because as I already stated you are a poor student of history. Many Arabs listened to thier "brothers" and left thier land expecting the Jews to be driven into the sea. They lost that gamble. Those who remained behind and didn't leave are full citizens to this day. The Arabs in the "Occupied Territories" have been raised in hatred. They need to change thier attitude if peace is to come to the area. Believe me, the Jews want peace. The Palestinian "leaders" do not because they will lose thier power and thier money. Ever wonder how Arafat can live in such luxury while the regular people suffer???? And Yassin wasn't suffering much while he was alive either.

So you don't and the majority of jewish Israeli would have no problems with the Palestinians becoming completely equal (IN ALL WAYS) citisens of a reformed state of Israel or Palestine or what what ever they chose to call it by referendum on a one person one vote basis ?
I do not know the personal living arrangements of Arafat nor do I care - how is that relevant ?
It is odd that you say that the Palestinian leaders are intransigent and don't want the peace process to succeed - when it is the Israeli who are building a very big permanent wall (grabbing yet more territory) , and illegal settlements still exist (and have to be defended by strong fortifications and garrisons, and the Isreali army continues to use armour against civilians. It takes two to tango, and the Isreali powers have not been overly forthcoming or cooperative either.
Is it any wonder why the conflict persists when people like us who are not directly involved are tryng to discuss this can't see eye to eye. How much harder must it be for those who are living the conflict on an hourly and daily basis ?

There I have I think addressed your comments, though you may and are entitled to disagree with my responses if that are contrary to your views, opinions or values.


I'll not comment further on this particular matter for a while and plan on watching on how the thread develops - I am not saying I concede or :giveup: - I'm just going to be a bit too busy for the next week of so. Any a cool off period is waranted I think.

:backsign:
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
somerled
Mar 24 2004, 11:53 PM
I am more apt to ask how the Palestinians have come the situatuion where they see they have no choice but to commit suicide in order to engage and pressure the Israelis. What would happen in Canada or the USA if say a mob who have the upperhand economically and militarily took over most of the resources of your country, forced you and family out of work and to become disposed of all those things you enjoy about your society, took over most of the most productive farming land, forced you out of the better regions to live and forced you to live in squallor in ghettos, took your ability to provide for yourself and your family away from you because you were not "one of the chosen people", and started even building a huge fence to separate your people from opportunities and territory and if they disarmed your military almost completely and made them an illegal organisation (on the pretence that it was to stop terrorist attacks by people you regard as patriots or freedom fighters).

What would you do ? I betting you would attack the invaders at every opportunity , and if you couldn't get at their military infrastructure or government, you might attack their collateral and softer targets. And you would regard yourself as a patriot.

So the Isrealis who are dying , are , in your own militatry terminology, part of the collateral damage.


Official Administrative Post:

Somerled, in order for an example to be valid, it needs to be historically accurate and hopefully internally consistent. Yours is not.

Quote:
 
I am more apt to ask how the Palestinians have come the situatuion where they see they have no choice but to commit suicide in order to engage and pressure the Israelis.


The answer to your question is that the Palestians have come to this point because they refuse to accept a resolution of United Nations who are the ones who made many of the decisions that you are damning the Israelis for making.

If you were being consistent, you should be damning the Palestinians for ignoring, and thereby weakening, the UN.

If you are have some links that back up your point of view, feel free to post them. Your examples, by and large, are not consistent with anything that I have read on the subject.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Wichita : so you don't think I'm blowing you off.

I'm sure I can, when a little time, locate some links if I take the time to go looking them.

I'm also sure just as many counter-links can be found, and all we would likely wind up with is a tit-for-tad "evidence war" , and there is also the effort involved in checking these links to see how credible and unbiassed those links are.

When I return to this thread later, I may have some links, so I guess watch this space. :)

:backsign:
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/res181.htm
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Fesarius
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Admiral
A general comment--

It is important that the links cited by anyone are authoritative. In academe, we are continually checking for credibility so our students will not be misled. Anyone can put anything on the Web--this does not make them (or their links) authoritative, and in many refereed circles, such an action is not synonymous with 'publishing.' Adjudication is an important part of the equation.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees.

It is generally aknowledged that the press has been biased against Israel.

Quote:
 
We have only the media's say so (Israeli propoganda) to go on that this man was DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for suicide bombers (including young ladies and children) and that he FORCED them to do these terrible things.


And you have the gall to come back and say

Quote:
 
I didn't say he wasn't someway involved in the intafardda (sp ?) or handn't been involved in terrorism (or freedom fighting if you take the side of the Palestinian people).
What I was saying was that the press and media have in the past taken a very biassed view when it comes to the conflict between the Palestinians and Israeli, often very biassed towards the Israelis in the contemporary climate particularly since the first Gulf War, noteably because the Israelis have are very sophisticated and effective propaganda machine and the means of preventing alternative views and perhaps unfavourable commentary from seeing the light of day through intimidation or other means.


I demand proof of your allegations that Israel has prevented alternative views and unfavourable commentary through intimidation.

In fact, I can prove this is not true simply by stating that if it was then you would have no sources to quote and would have a very different view of this situation. After all, if the negative press were suppressed you would be unable to have read it.

Quote:
 
If what I have said sounded antisemitic then there is not a lot I can do about that, that is your value judgement and not mine , its does however seem that when ever people put forward opinions and pose propositions that are politically distasteful or not politically pro-Israel then allegations of antisemitism sooner or later are brought to bare in order to silence these views. That does not wash, and does not help the larger issue at hand.


What I said is that you have fallen, hook line and sinker for the anti-semitic propaganda. The same propaganda that you have just said is suppressed. Unsubstantiated claims that put the Jewish people and Israel in a bad light are anti-semitic. Give me facts instead of propaganda and I will not call them anti-semitic.

Quote:
 
It wasn't so long ago that the leadership of what became the state of Israel were also regarded as terrorists and we should not forget that.


Please read the comments I wrote in the thread "What do these people have in common" started by Nztrekkie.

Quote:
 
Number one, if you think ethnic cleansing is going on here you are a bigger fool then I thought. Go back to school and study some history and learn what ethnic cleansing actually is. This situation does not come close to Nazi Germany, Kosovo, or Rwanda. It is an insult to use the term ethnic cleansing when describing the situation in Israel


Quote:
 
Well not to extent of exterminating people (one hopes it will never come to that, but no-one knows what might happen in the future if an ultra-radical far-right-wing party somehow gained power in the Kenesset), however, forcing large numbers of people to become refugees in their own land and compelling them to live in overpopulated and poorly serviced pockets (ghettoes) and in abject poverty IS NOT FAIR AND RIGHT - why do you this is OK ?


Talk about backpeddling. Ethnic cleansing is exterminating people. Don't throw around terms like this if you don't mean them. What gall you have. :realmad: I can't believe you feel it is ok to accuse people of doing something because it might happen in some hazy distant view of the future you have. And you wonder why I called your remarks anti-semitic propaganda??????

Quote:
 
Second, your idea of the two peoples living side by side shows your ignorance of the situation at hand. Did you know that there are already Muslim Arabs that are equal and full citizens of Israel?? And since Israel is a full representative democracy there are Arabs in the Kenesset. Of course you didn't because as I already stated you are a poor student of history. Many Arabs listened to thier "brothers" and left thier land expecting the Jews to be driven into the sea. They lost that gamble. Those who remained behind and didn't leave are full citizens to this day. The Arabs in the "Occupied Territories" have been raised in hatred. They need to change thier attitude if peace is to come to the area. Believe me, the Jews want peace. The Palestinian "leaders" do not because they will lose thier power and thier money. Ever wonder how Arafat can live in such luxury while the regular people suffer???? And Yassin wasn't suffering much while he was alive either


Quote:
 
So you don't and the majority of jewish Israeli would have no problems with the Palestinians becoming completely equal (IN ALL WAYS) citisens of a reformed state of Israel or Palestine or what what ever they chose to call it by referendum on a one person one vote basis ?


What I am stating is that this already exists for those families that chose to stay behind when Israel became a state. I am not advocating that this be given to those who voluntarily left the country. I will go on record here as being in favour of an independant Palestine beside Israel. One country will simply not work.

Quote:
 
do not know the personal living arrangements of Arafat nor do I care - how is that relevant ?


It is relevant in that it shows why Arafat has a vested interest in preventing peace in the region.

Quote:
 
It is odd that you say that the Palestinian leaders are intransigent and don't want the peace process to succeed - when it is the Israeli who are building a very big permanent wall (grabbing yet more territory) , and illegal settlements still exist (and have to be defended by strong fortifications and garrisons, and the Isreali army continues to use armour against civilians. It takes two to tango, and the Isreali powers have not been overly forthcoming or cooperative either.
Is it any wonder why the conflict persists when people like us who are not directly involved are tryng to discuss this can't see eye to eye. How much harder must it be for those who are living the conflict on an hourly and daily basis ?


If you see the wall as evidence of a land grab then you once again have fallen hook line and sinker for the Palestinian propaganda. Israel has had control over all of the land They are trying to disengage and actually hand the land over to the Palestinian Authority. If the Palestinian Authority would accept this with some grace then it might be a good starting point for negotiations. Walls can be taken down, but can you blame the Israelis for trying to prevent open borders that can be crossed by terrorists. Take a look at Jagalom's link.

Quote:
 
There I have I think addressed your comments, though you may and are entitled to disagree with my responses if that are contrary to your views, opinions or values.



And now I have addressed your comments.














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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
For those of you who still think that Israel is the terrorist here:

Yesterday a Palestinian terrorist suicide bomber approached soldiers at an Israeli checkpoint in the West Bank. The soldiers were on high alert, because they had captured an 11-year-old boy with a bomb hidden in his bag just last week. They noticed the teenager had something under his sweater and pointed their rifles at 14-year-old Hussam Abdo.

The soldiers ducked behind a concrete barrier, and with guns pointed at Abdo, ordered him to remove his sweater, revealing the standard-issue gray vest used by Palestinian suicide bombers. Now, at this point, what do you think happened? From everything the media reports about the evil Israelis and their incursions into the "occupied territories," it leaves the impression that the Israeli Army would have just shot the boy, right on site. Of course, that is not what happened.

After the boy told soldiers he did not want to blow up, the Israelis then sent a robot with a pair of scissors toward the 14-year-old terrorist, allowing him to cut the bomb-laden vest off, and drop it to the ground. He was then ordered to strip to his underwear, and was detained by soldiers who detonated the bomb in a controlled explosion.

Wearing a jacked provided by the Israelis, the kid was escorted back to the other side of the checkpoint. A military spokesman said "He's a frightened little boy. Our interest right now is to find out who sent him." Can you imagine what would happen in this country if Al-Qaeda was sending teenage suicide bombers to our cities? Wouldn't we retaliate? Of course we would.

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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Thanks Admiral. Jagalom linked us to another telling of that story.

It does show the difference in attitude between the two sides doesn't it.
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ANOVA
Vice Admiral
Quote:
 
, noteably because the Israelis have are very sophisticated and effective propaganda machine and the means of preventing alternative views and perhaps unfavourable commentary from seeing the light of day through intimidation or other means.


Did you know, that when there were acusations of prisoner abuse by the Isreal government, that the government held live broadcast hearings in which Arab prisoners were allowed to testify. This strange fact cuased some Arabs who could pick up the braodcast to attempt to learn Hebrew. Why? Becuase the whole concept of due process is foriegn to most of the Arab world.

Your description better fits what the christians are feeling under Arab rule in the Arab ocuppied terratories.

The word Arab is more correct than Palisitian since Jews were also citizens of Palistine and members of the Palistian Symphony (no Wagner, thank you) and so on.


When does a civilized country have a moral obligation to act in barbaric manner?

When failure to do so would aid the forces of evil and bring the death of freedom.

Hamas and all its members must be destroyed.

ANOVA


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Sgt. Jaggs
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How about a Voyager Movie
Israeli drones
This may help hunt them down
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
I think it's my turn to bait Somerled for a change.

Somerled, I am still waiting for your links that prove that the Israeli government has supressed the media.

And have you got the guts to apologize for your incorrect and insulting use of the term "ethnic cleansing"?

I would like to point out to you that 2 others on this thread took the point of view that the Israelis were wrong. However, they did so in a measured and reasonable manner and I did not feel the need to call the remarks of either of them anti-semitic. I only did that for your comments. I hope you at understand why and have learned something from this thread.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Still too busy .... mid semester exams.

:backsign:
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ds9074
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Admiral
As I suspected the US used their veto on the resolution condeming the assasination. I was also sad to see that my country didnt have the courage, when it came to the vote, to stand and be counted and back up its earlier condemnation.

The voting was as follows

For: China, Russia, France, Angola, Chile, Pakistan, Spain, Algeria, Benin, Brazil, Philippines

Abstained: UK, Germany, Romania

Against: US

I really not suprised though, I mean look at the recent record of US vetos on resolutions in regard to Israel.

Oct 2003: Draft resolution seeking to bar Israel from extending security barrier
Sep 2003: Draft resolution against Israeli threats to "remove" Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat
Dec 2002: Draft resolution condemning the killing of UN employees in the West Bank
Mar 2001: Draft to set up UN force to protect Palestinian civilians

All of these fell because the US veto is in effect an Israeli veto. Thus the most difficult and dangerous problem in the world cannot be dealt with by the United Nations because of US obstruction.
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