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Death of Hamas Leader
Topic Started: Mar 22 2004, 09:55 AM (1,941 Views)
Adrian
Lieutenant Commander
Maybe somebody can explain this to me. Why didn't the Israelis just arrest this guy?
That way, this guys not a martyr, he's not giving orders to his troops, and he eventually dies in custody with little fanfare.
It's not like they can't roll into any West Bank territory with their tanks with complete impunity; I mean their enemies have small arms and rocks as weapons (okay mabey a few RPG's, but those don't penetrate decent armor).

Or am I missing something? :unsure:
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
No I do not like seeing innocent children killed.

Nor do I like to see people disposed of their rights and land simply because they are not a certain religion - sounds disturbingly like ethnic cleansing to me .


The intransigence of the Israelis and the Palestinians, and the continual land grabs by "settlers" ,and the refusal to accept a peacekeeping force (UN Blue Barrets) to keep the combatants apart is the crux of the problem, plus the fact that these people refuse to talk or be fairdinkum about the piece process.

As I said, the Israelis are their own worst enemies.

If you are asking what the rest of the world should do about it, OK tell the USA to stay out the way,and have the UN (the world) force a settlement on these vindictive idiots (on both sides) and make a final and binding decision about the future of the lands contested or claimed by both the Israelis and the Palestinians, and this to be enforced militarily if necessary. It has been done elsewhere - it can also be done here.

This could mean the Isrealis and Palestinians becoming EQUAL citisens of one democratic country.
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
somerled
Mar 24 2004, 05:55 AM
No I do not like seeing innocent children killed.

Then you have a problem when 80 year old cripples in wheelchairs order children to strap dynamite sticks to themselves and go blow up other children??

Hypocrite.
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Hoss
Member Avatar
Don't make me use my bare hands on you.
Adrian
Mar 24 2004, 12:50 AM
Maybe somebody can explain this to me. Why didn't the Israelis just arrest this guy?
That way, this guys not a martyr, he's not giving orders to his troops, and he eventually dies in custody with little fanfare.
It's not like they can't roll into any West Bank territory with their tanks with complete impunity; I mean their enemies have small arms and rocks as weapons (okay mabey a few RPG's, but those don't penetrate decent armor).

Or am I missing something? :unsure:

I would be opposed to arresting him because it would make him a focal point for the Hamas to do all sorts of things to demand his release.

Also, I am not sure of Israel's ability to get the 'police' in close enough to arrest him. There would likely be a big fire-fight as Hamas body guards and Israeli soldiers fought it out. At least this way, no Israeli soldiers were killed or wounded.

He is not a common criminal, but a militant leader. It is more akin to a war in which you attempt to destroy your enemies leadership.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
somerled
Mar 24 2004, 05:55 AM
No I do not like seeing innocent children killed.

Nor do I like to see people disposed of their rights and land simply because they are not a certain religion - sounds disturbingly like ethnic cleansing to me .


The intransigence of the Israelis and the Palestinians, and the continual land grabs by "settlers" ,and the refusal to accept a peacekeeping force (UN Blue Barrets) to keep the combatants apart is the crux of the problem, plus the fact that these people refuse to talk or be fairdinkum about the piece process.

As I said, the Israelis are their own worst enemies.

If you are asking what the rest of the world should do about it, OK tell the USA to stay out the way,and have the UN (the world) force a settlement on these vindictive idiots (on both sides) and make a final and binding decision about the future of the lands contested or claimed by both the Israelis and the Palestinians, and this to be enforced militarily if necessary. It has been done elsewhere - it can also be done here.

This could mean the Isrealis and Palestinians becoming EQUAL citisens of one democratic country.

Number one, if you think ethnic cleansing is going on here you are a bigger fool then I thought. Go back to school and study some history and learn what ethnic cleansing actually is. This situation does not come close to Nazi Germany, Kosovo, or Rwanda. It is an insult to use the term ethnic cleansing when describing the situation in Israel.

Second, your idea of the two peoples living side by side shows your ignorance of the situation at hand. Did you know that there are already Muslim Arabs that are equal and full citizens of Israel?? And since Israel is a full representative democracy there are Arabs in the Kenesset. Of course you didn't because as I already stated you are a poor student of history. Many Arabs listened to thier "brothers" and left thier land expecting the Jews to be driven into the sea. They lost that gamble. Those who remained behind and didn't leave are full citizens to this day. The Arabs in the "Occupied Territories" have been raised in hatred. They need to change thier attitude if peace is to come to the area. Believe me, the Jews want peace. The Palestinian "leaders" do not because they will lose thier power and thier money. Ever wonder how Arafat can live in such luxury while the regular people suffer???? And Yassin wasn't suffering much while he was alive either.
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Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
38957
Mar 24 2004, 08:30 AM
Adrian
Mar 24 2004, 12:50 AM
Maybe somebody can explain this to me. Why didn't the Israelis just arrest this guy?
That way, this guys not a martyr, he's not giving orders to his troops, and he eventually dies in custody with little fanfare.
It's not like they can't roll into any West Bank territory with their tanks with complete impunity; I mean their enemies have small arms and rocks as weapons (okay mabey a few RPG's, but those don't penetrate decent armor).

Or am I missing something? :unsure:

I would be opposed to arresting him because it would make him a focal point for the Hamas to do all sorts of things to demand his release.

Also, I am not sure of Israel's ability to get the 'police' in close enough to arrest him. There would likely be a big fire-fight as Hamas body guards and Israeli soldiers fought it out. At least this way, no Israeli soldiers were killed or wounded.

He is not a common criminal, but a militant leader. It is more akin to a war in which you attempt to destroy your enemies leadership.

In addition he had previously been under house arrest, but was released in a prisoner exchange. Big mistake.
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ds9074
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Admiral
Its not cowardly to condem this illegal action. There is no way that Israel can ensure its security by killings. Kill one leader and another will come foward, very likely with even more support. This assasination will create more angry people who hate Israel enough to kill inocent Israelis. That will mean more dead Israelis. It was a very foolish action on the part of Sharon.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
^^^Would you consider the assassination of Osama Bin Laden to also be illegal?

If your answer is yes then all I can say is sometimes the law is an ass.

If your answer is no, then you are a hypocrite.
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ds9074
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Admiral
I'm not an expert but I think it might well be illegal to set out to assasinate Bin Laden. To kill him as part of a wider bombing campaign (say if he was killed in the Torra Borra bombing) or for him to be killed while evading arrest might be a different story.

Sometimes the law can be frustrating but it is the same law which would make it illegal for another country to assasinate Prime Minister Sharon. Its there to protect everyone. Thats part of my objection to Iraq. The international laws which may have made the invasion of Iraq illegal also made other invasions illegal. If we tear up the rule book how can we condem other countries that launch invasions? The rule of law applying to all is the absolute foundation stone of our democracies and the freedoms and liberties we enjoy.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
^^^I understand where you are coming from, but in cases like Iraq why should we condemn the U.S. - I condemn the UN for not enforcing it's laws in Iraq. You see, that is what I hate. When Democratic countries protect themselves they are "breaking the law", but the UN doesn't bother with the non democratic countries. I think the "laws" of the UN have already become irrelevant. If they actually took action against the Osama Bin Ladens and the Sheik Yassins I would have a lot more respect for International Law. As it stands I don't think there is any International Law.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
A lot of people say Israel shouldn’t do this, or Israel shouldn’t do that. So what should Israel do?
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Sgt. Jaggs
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How about a Voyager Movie
Minuet
Mar 24 2004, 11:54 AM
^^^I understand where you are coming from, but in cases like Iraq why should we condemn the U.S. - I condemn the UN for not enforcing it's laws in Iraq. You see, that is what I hate. When Democratic countries protect themselves they are "breaking the law", but the UN doesn't bother with the non democratic countries. I think the "laws" of the UN have already become irrelevant. If they actually took action against the Osama Bin Ladens and the Sheik Yassins I would have a lot more respect for International Law. As it stands I don't think there is any International Law.

Bravo! :clap: :bow: :encore:

That is because the U.N. has no spine and is a forum of debate where resolutions mean nothing if not enforced.
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benetil
Unregistered

I tend to be rather optimistic about what humanity can be and what humanity can do. The situation in Israel is one that leaves me numb, dispondent, doubtful. Given the peoples involved in this age-old conflict, I think there is no hope of a peaceful solution.

I don't condemn Israel for targeting Ahmed Yassin - but I don't think Israel's action will improve the security situation or the quality of life for people (Israeli, Palestinian, other) who try to live in/around Israel.

If President Bush were serious about ridding the planet of terrorism, I believe he (Bush) would join Israel in targeting members of Hamas, Hezbolla, Fatah and similar organizations that so willingly resort to indiscriminate terror attacks. He's (Bush) going to have to do something a little more substantial than just refusing to meet with Yasser Arafat. I don't agree with a whole lot that Vice President Cheney says, but I firmly associate myself with one thing he said after 9/11 (I paraphrase): that civilized people cannot reason with terrorists or groups that sponsor terror - the only solution that provides for the security of the civilized world is to eliminate terrorists.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Bill :
We have only the media's say so (Israeli propoganda) to go on that this man was DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for suicide bombers (including young ladies and children) and that he FORCED them to do these terrible things.

Israeli credibility on this matter is very poor.
I am more apt to ask how the Palestinians have come the situatuion where they see they have no choice but to commit suicide in order to engage and pressure the Israelis. What would happen in Canada or the USA if say a mob who have the upperhand economically and militarily took over most of the resources of your country, forced you and family out of work and to become disposed of all those things you enjoy about your society, took over most of the most productive farming land, forced you out of the better regions to live and forced you to live in squallor in ghettos, took your ability to provide for yourself and your family away from you because you were not "one of the chosen people", and started even building a huge fence to separate your people from opportunities and territory and if they disarmed your military almost completely and made them an illegal organisation (on the pretence that it was to stop terrorist attacks by people you regard as patriots or freedom fighters).

What would you do ? I betting you would attack the invaders at every opportunity , and if you couldn't get at their military infrastructure or government, you might attack their collateral and softer targets. And you would regard yourself as a patriot.

So the Isrealis who are dying , are , in your own militatry terminology, part of the collateral damage.

If that sounds offensive - sorry (especially to Minuet who was probably very disturbed by that statement) - but that's how Hamas (and probably the Israeli goverment also themselves) probably sees them.
If I understand situation , Hamas regard themselves as opposing a military invasion and occupation (and perhaps see themselves as being victims of the very same things the Jews were subject to in early days of WWII - ie of being victims ethnic cleansing) and being engaged in war for their very survival as a people.

Is it perhaps possible that if you found yourself in a situation similar to them you might feel compelled by your desperate circumstances and hopeless situation to maybe engage in attacks on your enemy in any way you can.

I am NOT saying I support suicide attacks on non-combatants and innocent civilians. I am say that I can understand why the Palestinians feel compelled to engage in these attacks. And truth be known - I would say that if you step back and look at it objectively you do also.

Minuet :
If Ben Laden were killed in the attempt to capture him, then that's too bad for him, and probably also for the rest of us too as it would make him even more dangerous (because he becomes a martyre).
I do not support non-judicial killings AT ALL. And need a lot of convincing even about judicial killings too.
He must be captured and brought to book by an acceptable legal process. His assassination IS ILLEGAL and serves no good purpose.

I have always opposed the USA in the issue of it's invasion of Iraq because the evidence presented and their reasons held and still hold no water, and was more to do with ensuring oil supplies and expanding USA influence in that region, and perhaps a personal vindetta on the part of Bush Jr and his senior staff.

The UN has been weakened greatly by actions of the USA and its Coalision , and the world has been made a very much more unstable and dangerous place as a result of their actions. Not to mention that the credibilty of the Blair , Howard and Bush Jr administrations are now virtually non-existant since no WMDs have been found despite the hype and spin and sexed intelligence that was used cynically and deliberately to scare the pants of the electorates in the UK, the USA and Australia and to attempt to scare the UN and the rest of the world.

It is a good thing that the policy of the government in waiting in Australia is to remove the ADF personnel from Iraq by the end of 2004. Despite the claims of Howard that this will be seen as victory by Ben Laden or as weaking the war against terror , who cares if he sees that as victory and what of it . The USA might become miffed too - so what .
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Sgt. Jaggs
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How about a Voyager Movie
I do not believe Bush can do that.

There are too many like minded Muslims sympathetic to the 'plight' of the Palestinians throuout the entire middle east, and the world. It would mean geonocide and / or global war.
Eventually if the envelope keeps being pushed.............................................. :o
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