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Israel
Topic Started: Nov 26 2003, 12:00 PM (550 Views)
somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Hey Doc,
I would never resort to calling anyone shorty (unless they are very tall), as I'm a short-arse myself and I know how hirtful it can be some short people. :blink: :blink: :D :lol:

PS - I'm sometimes called lofty amongst other more colourful names.

Minuet:

I promised I'd get back to you - I haven't had a lot of time to research the matter and believe if I gave it a fair bit of time (at the uni library) I could find heaps of stuff collaborating my statements (which are based on years of general reading about ancient history, and of watching many many documentaries (from many sources as aired on SBS or ABC, or broadcast on ABC-radio (science programs and discussions). Please not that I have never taken formal subjects in archeology, ancient history or theology.

Here's some stuff I've found that seems balanced.
http://members.tripod.com/~mr_sedivy/pho_hebrew.html (I have seen documentaries that disputed that the jews as a were ever enslaved by the
Egyptians (to build the great pyramid or temples - the Egyptians has a kind of national service where all families were expected to provide a son (an honour for them to serve their gods it was a way for promising male children to learn a technical trade and perhaps move up in the world if they proved skillful) - the claim herein of the jewish people being enslaved for 300 years is false.
There would have been jewish slave no doubt - but the majority of jews in ancient Egypt would simply been members of the general Egyptian population and unlikely to attract attention of the authorities unless they broke laws.)

And from - http://pandora.nla.gov.au/nph-arch/1999/O1...au/jew_race.htm
"Today, to trace anyone's descent to ancient Palestine would be a genealogical impossibility; and to presume, axiomatically, such a descent for Jews, alone among all human groups, is an assumption of purely fictional significance. Most everybody in the Western world could stake out some claim of Palestinian descent if genealogical records could be established for two-thousand years. And there are, indeed, people who, though not by the widest stretch of imagination Jewish, proudly make that very claim: some of the oldest of the South's aristocratic families play a game of comparing whose lineage goes farther back into Israel. No one knows what happened to the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel, but to speculate on who might be who is a favored Anglo-Saxon pastime, and Queen Victoria belonged to an Israelite Society that traced the ancestry of its membership back to those lost tribes.

Twelve tribes started in Canaan about thirty-five centuries ago; and not only that ten of them disappeared - more than half of the members of the remaining two tribes never returned from their "exile" in Babylon. How then, can anybody claim to descend directly from that relatively small community which inhabited the Holy Land at the time of Abraham's Covenant with God?

The Jewish racial myth flows from the fact that the words Hebrew, Israelite, Jew, Judaism, and the Jewish people have been used synonymously to suggest a historic continuity. But this is a misuse."

By someone called Ruthie elsewhere last year - another questioning mind/
http://pub157.ezboard.com/fmessiahtruthfrm...opicID=18.topic
She raised some valid points.

From :http://www.iap.org/zioinism19.htm
Israel did not "become" a nation (need definitions for both) and it is important not to compare apples to oranges. Israel of today has little to do with "Israel" of 3000 years ago. Archeologists at Tel Aviv University showed that city states and kingdoms were routinely made and obliterated in the ancient land of Canaan while the natives survived and continued to live.
The Israelites evolved from local Canaanites (archeological evidence, not the stories of the bible which were never intended to be taken literally). But even if one is to take the stories of the bible literally, there is plenty of "evidence" in the bible that Hebrews prospered with Adomite and other Canaanites. These are not states or nations in the modern sense.
Canaanitic groups are classified into Western Canaanitic languages (Aramaic, Assyrian, Phoenician etc.) and Eastern Canaanitic languages (Arabic and Hebrew which were spoken but not written languages). Northern Canaanites (e.g. Nebateans and Phoenicians) developed the written languages. All these groups lived, fought, interacted, collaborated, etc. but no group was obliterated in history. Two facts are easily verified as examples. Palestinian villagers especially in Northern Palestine for hundreds of years and until today use the name Cana’an for their children and many have it as a surname. Second, designs on the cloths of villagers (the folkloric symbols) are canaanitic symbols (& are shared by location and by locals who are both christian and muslim).
The Jebusites (Canaanites) around 3,000 B.C. dwelt on the tract of land "Jebus" which later became Jerusalem? Ur-Shalem (Jerusalem) is a Canaanite word meaning, the house of Salem, the chieftain of the clan of Jebusites. The name Salem is Shalem in the Aramaic language and was also adapted to Arabic and Hebrew (but much later) to indicate peace. Similarly While Arabs and Jews think Bethlehem means house of bread or meat respectively, it is more appropriately house of Laham (the Canaanitic god of the southern hills). The temple of Solomon likely was built on the ruins of the Jebusite temple just like the Aksa was built on the same ruins.
All these groups lived, fought, interacted, collaborated, etc. but no group was obliterated in history. Palestinian villagers especially in Northern Palestine for hundreds of years and until today use the name Cana’an for their children. Second, designs on the cloths of villagers (the folkloric symbols) are Canaanitic symbols (& are shared by location and by locals who are both Christian and Muslim). I can site several other examples including ritualistic events that are likely pagan in origin. Jews converted to Christianity and Christian converted to Islam as major trends during the establishment of these religions is also well documented.

One of the major myths perpetuated by latter followers of the religion is their novelty/freshness/ uniqueness and in the case of of some followers of Judaism thinking that is more than a religion but an inherited attribute. Genetically, Palestinian Christians and Muslims are closer to Sephardi Jews than either group is to Ashkenazi Jews who are in turn more turcik (and indo-European- due to significant pool of Khazars who converted to Judaism a few hundred years ago). Ashkenazi thus are not true semites. The use of the word anti-semitic is corrupted as Arabs are Semites and most Jews are not.

Sources

Davies P.R., "In Search of 'Ancient' Israel", Journal for the Study of the Old Testament, 1992.

Hadawi, S., "Bitter Harvest, a modern history of Palestine", 4th Edition, Olive Branch Press, NYC, 1991

Marcus, A.D., "The View from Nebo, How Archeology is rewriting the Bible and Reshaping the Middle East", Little, Brown, Boston, 2000.

Whitelam K.W., "The Invention of Ancient Israel and the silencing of Palestinian History", Routledge, London, 1996

MYTH: The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel.
The PLO charter called for a democratic one state for all its citizens. This was changed when the PLO moderated its views in 1970s to accept a two state solution. Charter articles were voided that did not agree with this concept and based on International resolutions (242 and 338).

The Oslo Accords include as supplements statements made by PLO Chairman Yasir Arafat to Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin. In this statement, Arafat writes: "The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security. The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338."

In the Declaration of Principles. Article I states that: "The aim of the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations within the current Middle East peace process is, among other things, to establish a Palestinian Interim Self-Government Authority, the elected Council, (the "Council") for the Palestinian people in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, for a transitional period not exceeding five years, leading to a permanent settlement based on Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338."

Myth : Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3300 years.
There was no Jewish conquest in 1272 BC. As mentioned above, the Jews were one of many peoples who settled in the land of Canaan. They did not have dominion over the land for 1000 years, nor did they have a continuous presence on the land of Canaan.

MYTH: For over 3300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
Jerusalem was not a Jewish capital for 3300 years. Throughout the history of the area, Jerusalem was a Jewish capital for only 421 years. After Solomon's death, when the kingdom split, this marked the end of a united kingdom of Israel. The Northern Kingdom was named Samaria after its capital.

No doubt I could find more should I continue looking. Will be interesting to see your responses. :)


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Minuet
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How would you like some genetic proof going back 3300 years? Check out this article:

http://www.calvarysac.org/genetic.html

The researcher in this study, Karl Skorecki, is actually someone I used to know personally. He went to the same Synagogue as I in Toronto and was also my teacher at Hebrew School. He is one of the most intelligent people I have ever met. There was an article on him recently in The Toronto Star newspaper, which is one of the largest and most respected newspapers in Canada. That article said that it is very likely that Mr. Skorecki will get a Nobel prize in the next few years for his genetic research.

As for your links. I couldn't get to the first one. The second one seems more opinion then research. The third one you included (Ruthie) I don't quite understand. This seems more in line with my reasoning then yours. Ruthie appears to be an ex member of a group call Jews for Jesus. They are Jews who have converted to Christianity. Ruthie seems to have come full circle back to Judiasm and her arguments are against Christianity and the New Testament, not against Judiasm and our ancient claims. Her genetic comments have to do with Jesus's lineage, not Jewish lineage.

As to your comments on the PLO charter. I believe if you do more research you will find that the PLO charter was never actually changed. Arafat promised to do so , but never actually did. He has consistently said one thing and done another. He has done NOTHING to stop the suicide bombers. I don't have time right now to do the research but I am sure I can find articles that dispute yours.
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Admiralbill_gomec
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somerled
Nov 27 2003, 01:30 AM

PS I do support the violence on the part of the Palestinians against innocent (I can understand why they might behave this way) Israelis anymore than I support the use of Israeli armour and airpower against the families and mostly unarmed Palestinians in response to these attacks - the actions of both parties is counterproductive and will lead nowhere except for more of the same.
I hope this was a typo and you meant to say that you DON'T support violence. [/QUOTE]
Correct - that was a typo (duely corrected!)
[/QUOTE]
Actually, it is the Palestinians who are blowing themselves up in public, and going after "soft targets". The Israeli military does not go after families, they go after terrorists. There are no indiscriminate attacks from the Israeli military. There are a few "collateral" casualties, but they are rare.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet:

Really ? I don't place much stock in the say so of work that has not been properly refereed technically by other experts in his field (archeogeneticists) and aren't terribly impressed by press releases like an article on him recently in The Toronto Star newspaper.

Has Prof Skorecki's published findings been supported by other (non-Jewish and unbiassed) experts as a result of his archeogenetic findings in refereed scientific literature and had he had his findings verified and confirmed independently scientifically ?
(such as Nature Mag - http://www.nature.com/ or other elite or refereed public publications ie Scientific American or New Scientist say).

His work seems to be - from the link given - the result largely of guesswork and a very long extrapolation (he may be able to trace the genetic variability may be traceable back 1000 or more years however > 3000 years without actual genetic material from corpses of people who died around that epoch technically a case of really s - t - r - e - t - c - h - i - n - g the credibility of the work. (As a technical man with a strong mathematical background this in a very unwize thing to do as the error grows exponentially the further the data on hand is etrapolated.) Did he test his hypothesis against actual archeogenetic (3300 +/- year old) material ?
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Minuet
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somerled
Nov 27 2003, 09:40 PM
Has Prof Skorecki's published findings been supported by other (non-Jewish and unbiassed) experts as a result of his archeogenetic findings in refereed scientific literature and had he had his findings verified and confirmed independently scientifically ?
(such as Nature Mag - http://www.nature.com/ or other elite or refereed public publications ie Scientific American or New Scientist say).


Funny you should mention Nature. In the second paragraph of the article I linked you too it is mentioned that Dr. Skoreki's findings were published in Nature. Maybe you should read the article again more closely.

Here is a link to the article published in Nature:

http://www.familytreedna.com/nature97385.html

In addition here is a link to a page that contains a number of links confirming the research

http://www.geocities.com/hrhdavid/English/...3_contents.html

If you type Dr. Skoreki's name into Google you will find an extremely long list of articles. Browse to your hearts content, I am sure you will find that he is one of the most respected researchers in his field. There apparently is also some research linking his findings to other semitic populations (Arab populations) which should at least confirm for you that the Jewish people belong in the mid east alongside the Arab population.

Just to add additional info here is a link to an article that was in The New York Times. This shows how Dr. Skorecki's work was used to link a group in Africa that claimed Jewish lineage to the mid East. Interesting reading:

http://www.uoregon.edu/~jbloom/race/general/lemba.htm

You may not want to accept the research, but most of the scientific community does, and unlike your articles his work is based on science, not opinion.

Sorry I didn't give better links earlier, but I was on my way out the door with my daughter.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Not denying the likely genetic link between jewish peoples and other semitic peoples (arabs) in that region. Such inter-marriage and inter-breeding has had to have happened over such a long period of time - such is obvious.

I'll take a look at the info you have provided however I still think his work and claims that he can directly trace back his (tribal and presumeably his family genetics - as opposed to gyneology - by 3300 years - I repeat that I consider that a very big s - t - r - e - t - c - h of his work's credibility. However if his published data looks convincing to me after digesting it and due consideration then I'll accept it - not before. Fair enough ?

Note this is not my field of expertise.
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Minuet
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This is not my area of specialty by a long shot. I probably would have remembered reading articles on the work, but not remembered the name of the researcher had I not known him personally. However note that when you put Karl Skorecki into Google you get 23 pages of hits. His work was not done alone and there are other researchers listed on his discoveries, many of the names do not sound Jewish, although in this day and age who knows. The majority accept the research and Dr. Skorecki does work out of Technion Institue which is a highly respected faculty world wide.

I find the interesting part of his work to be that he found the marker in Jews from many different "ethnic" backgrounds including Blacks from Ethiopia and both Sephardim and Ashkenazi sects. The reason he focused purely on the Cohen tribe is that although the religion is passed through the mother, the Tribe is passed through the father, and you cannot join a tribe when you convert. You become one of the general population. Cohen make up a small percentage of people, but the theoretically the bloodline should be pure and able to be traced back. The work seems to bear out this theory. I believe some work has also been started on the Levi tribe (the only other existing tribe) The findings have not been as conclusive as with the Cohen.

Another area you might want to research is the work into finding the Ten Lost Tribes. Try this link to NOVA Online and read about the show they did on this subject.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/

I don't know what else I can say to convince you. One thing I do know is that historians interpret data to come up with findings and different historians can come up with wildly varied conclusions. The work I am citing is science fact, not historical theories, and is widely accepted.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
Quote:
 
Note this is not my field of expertise.

Somerled,

What is your field of expertise, if I may ask? Very interesting discussion (Minuet and Somerled). :)
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Engineering - chemical (many years of professional practice in steel industies = combustion engineering, metallurgical, refractories, iron and steel research and development).
Also communications and computer engineering - current studies.

Lots of maths, lots of chemistry, lots of physics - all including 300 level and some 400 level chemistry and physics subjects as part of prior undergraduate and honours studies and current undergraduate studies - hey one has to keep one's hand in somehow.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet :
Haven't had an opportunity to download paper link you provided yet - been busy lately zipping about the countryside to attend job interviews (it doesn't rain for while then it pures ! - off to Port Kembla on Wednesday - BHP Steel (now called BlueScopeSteel) they have head-hunted me - that would make the 3rd time with "BHP" steel if I decide I like the offer (and they decide to appoint me again - guess there's nothing like sticking with the devil you know eh).

An aside - I've been talking with a smart young engineer who's currently engaged in the last year of his doctor of philosophy in chemical engineering and happens to be a jew (though not a very religious one) - nice and very impressive kid - was a cadet in my department at Newcastle Steelworks. (One of the few people from my old department I thought enough of and have chosen to maintain contact with).

He tells me that he can't become a Israeli citisen should he choose to to emmigrate to Israel and take up a post doctorial fellowship and a lecturing position there because his jewishness has come down his father's linearage and his father and grandfather both married women who weren't jews - they were catholics. He must be able to produce records proving maternal jewish linearage of at least his grandmother - but he can't do this - his grandparents came from Poland and were lucky enough to have the chance to leave poland before the onset WWII.
He can live there and work there (temporarily) but will never be able to take up permanent residency - despite his regarding himself as a jew - he's pretty miffed about that.

Is this true ? (If so that sounds too much like an attempt to produce a "racially" pure society and I really don't like the ramifications and implications of that kind of population engineering.)
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Minuet
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Somerled,

Now we are going into a separate topic and one that is highly debated within Jewish ranks.

Your friend is correct about his inability to immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return. However, he could apply to immigrate under immigration laws that are like those of other countries - but cannot get the automatic citizenship given to Jews

Believe it or not there is a historically logical reason for the religion to be passed down through maternal as opposed to paternal lines. As with most religions, intermarriage is frowned upon. However in the distant (and not so distant) past there were wars fought not only in the mid East, but wherever Jews settled. Often the women were raped. Rather then making the children of these unwanted liasons outcasts, the children were accepted as full Jews. Thier birth was through no sin of thier mothers (actually a highly evolved concept if you think about it - other cultures blamed, and to this day still blame, the women even in cases of rape)

In modern times the Reform branch of Judaism has started to accept the children of mixed marriages as Jews, despite the affiliation of the mother. However, the Conservative and Orthodox branches have not made this concession and the laws in Israel have been set and controlled by the Orthodox political parties. Therefore your friend is not accepted as Jewish in Israel, even though he might be accepted at his synagogue (assuming it is Reform). However, you should note that converts (done in Conservative or Orthodox traditions) are accepted under the Law of Return - so it is not "racial" in nature.

If he truely wants to move to Israel permanently I would advise that your friend undergo a Conservative or Orthodox conversion. This would probably not be all that difficult a proposition for someone who has been raised Jewish and already has a great deal of knowledge of our history and culture. He probably has also already been circumcised as a baby, so wouldn't need to now. That would be the most painful part of conversion for a man :whistle: :wow:

I don't see the laws in Israel changing in the near future and I myself was raised in the Conservative tradition. However, (and this somewhat goes back to Gvok's original question in this thread) I believe that the Israeli government should take a long hard look at the Law of Return. It was set up so that Jews could return to Israel easily in the case of another Hitler rising. Hitler didn't really care if you were full or part Jewish. He murdered people either way. The Law of Return should recognize this to protect those of mixed lineage as well as whole.

I hope this answers your questions. Pass my advice regarding conversion on to your friend and let me know what he thinks.
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Fesarius
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Admiral
Quote:
 
Engineering - chemical (many years of professional practice in steel industies = combustion engineering, metallurgical, refractories, iron and steel research and development).
Also communications and computer engineering - current studies.

Lots of maths, lots of chemistry, lots of physics - all including 300 level and some 400 level chemistry and physics subjects as part of prior undergraduate and honours studies and current undergraduate studies - hey one has to keep one's hand in somehow.

Somerled,

Thanks. Very impressive. :)
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Just back in after fishing all night - chasing those elusive jewy - MT handed BUT it was a truely nice night (and very peaceful and relaxing and cloudless) and it would have been a shame not stick it out until dawn since I went to so much trouble to get my livebait and actually get to my secret fishing spot - 4x4 absolutely necessary to get away from crazies , the boozy half-wits and the week-end warriors who clutter up the place making my regular (more easily accessable)spots totally unbearable on weekends. Perfect for fishing - too bad the fish made themselves scarce.

Minuet - thanks for taking the time to enlighten me.
What you said confirmed pretty much what my friend said - only he didn't say anything about conversion and such-like. I guess his priest or the Israeli Embassy would provide that kind of information if he decides he wants to emmigrate to Israel once he completes his Ph.D thesis.
The circumcision thing probably wouldn't be problem as this is something that has until recently (last 20 years or so) been part of our culture with most if not all boy babies being circumcised shortly after birth by tradition - I guess he's probably been docked since as his dad is jewish (and I think the catholics are keen on that too - but could be wrong).

That "Law of Return" thing sounds very odd to me and pretty discriminatory - those fundamentalists (Conservative or Orthodox jews) have some very strange ideas.
Mind you it does make a little bit of sense regarding hereditory being passed down through the maternal decendents.
It must be a hugely of contensous amongst the jewish peoples at large as I guess a great many of them would be in similar situation in that they are not "Conservative or Orthodox".
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