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Israel
Topic Started: Nov 26 2003, 12:00 PM (549 Views)
gvok
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Is the importance of Israel as a Jewish state (i.e., a state in which there is a virtual guaruntee that anti-semetic factions will never come to power) somewhat lessened because of the existence of western countries like Canada, the UK, Australia and the US in that the Jewish populations of these countries have (for the most part) not been subject to anti-semitism and anti-semitism is not (for the most part) part of modern politics? Or is there always a fear that anti-semites might rise to power in these countries which continues to justify Israel's role as a haven from anti-semitism?

BTW, this question is wholly seperate from the religious and or cultural / historical significance of Israel to the Jewish people.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Gvok, that is a very good question and actually easy to answer. The need for Israel as a haven from anti-semitism is not lessened by the exsistence of the countries you mentioned. Why, do you ask? The answer is simple. Germany was one of the best places for Jews in the world before Hitler came to power. They were wealthy and part of mainstream society. Jews will never again become complacent enough to believe that it cannot happen "here". It did and it can again.
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gvok
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So that sentiment is alive in strong in Canada and the US? That's interesting (and outside of my personal experience). Is that sentiment generally felt by most Jews you know Minnn?
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gvok
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Also, is there not a difference between countries like France and Germany and countries like Canada and the US in this regard? Demographics? History? Culture?
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
I believe most Jews do feel that way. We cannot afford to become complacent. As for the demographics and history, as I said Germany was a wonderful place to be Jewish, before Hitler. My Grandfather came from a typical wealthy German Jewish family. He was raised Reform, but became religious and became an Orthodox Rabbi. As such he became an early target, which probably saved his life. He was arrested and put in a labour camp early on. He saw what was coming and left when Hitler opened the borders to anyone who wanted to leave. Others basically took the stance that it would blow over and they were true Germans so no one would harm them. They died in the camps, still not believing that this could happen to them. My lesson from this is that it can happen, and believing it won't doesn't stop reality.
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gvok
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One last question on this subject. Would it make a difference if Israel were located on some other less contested real estate so long as the politcal structure were Jewish? I know this is where the religious / cultural aspects enter, but are there other reasons for Israel to exist where it does?
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Hoss
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Don't make me use my bare hands on you.
First of all there have been some anti-semitic politicians in recent US history, like Jesse Jackson, Louis Farakan and so forth. They have made anti-semitic remark but are not generally called to account for this as they have victim minority status in the eyes of some. Radical islam is making gains amoung blacks in the USA by demonizing Christianity and Judaism as white man's or uncle tom's religions as if islam is some sort of african religion. This has resulted in many black politicians and such making desparaging remarks about Jews and it's always PC to make derrogatory remarks about Christians :realmad: .

I think the reason for Israel's location is historical. That is about where it has been long ago. If it were all on some island in the south pacific I don't know if it would have the same meaning. Most religions place a great deal of importance on sacred places or historic cities (i.e., Jeruselum, Mecca, Bethlehem...)

Nice to see you around again Gvok. I know that you have the joy of a new daughter in your life as I do, for that I am glad. Tickle her toes for me ;)
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Fesarius
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Quote:
 
He was raised Reform, but became religious and became an Orthodox Rabbi. As such he became an early target, which probably saved his life. He was arrested and put in a labour camp early on. He saw what was coming and left when Hitler opened the borders to anyone who wanted to leave.

Minuet,

Fascinating. Did you have many talks with him as you were growing up? What a treasure (the memories) if you did. :)
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Minuet
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gvok
Nov 26 2003, 12:53 PM
One last question on this subject. Would it make a difference if Israel were located on some other less contested real estate so long as the politcal structure were Jewish? I know this is where the religious / cultural aspects enter, but are there other reasons for Israel to exist where it does?

Hey Gvok, you really want to make me work on this one don't you?

Of course the religious aspect does make it difficult to locate on any other piece of real estate. Besides, I have a question for you. Where else would you locate the Jewish people without dislocating someone else?

There has always been a Jewish presence in Israel. A great misconception is that the Palestinian people were dislocated by the creation of Israel. The truth is that no one was asked to leave by any representative of the Jewish people. The people who left did so because they believed the Arab leaders who promised to drive the Jews into the sea. They gave up thier land because of empty promises. Jordan stole more of thier land then Israel won in the wars, but no one goes after them to ask for compensation.
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Minuet
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Fesarius
Nov 26 2003, 01:34 PM
Quote:
 
He was raised Reform, but became religious and became an Orthodox Rabbi. As such he became an early target, which probably saved his life. He was arrested and put in a labour camp early on. He saw what was coming and left when Hitler opened the borders to anyone who wanted to leave.

Minuet,

Fascinating. Did you have many talks with him as you were growing up? What a treasure (the memories) if you did. :)

My grandfather lived in New York so I only saw him once or twice a year. He did show me pictures of his family, but he didn't really like to talk about them a lot. It is common for survivors to not want to talk because the memories are too painful. He died about 15 years ago.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
Minuet:

I will not deny that jews have lived in Palestine historically and going back to times of the golden days of the Egyptian civilisation and beyond.

However - many of the historial pretences sited for establishing the modern state of Israel are contentious or false (based only hearsay or old testiment falsehoods). I wont go into details as these has been discussed in detail by others in that other place and there is wealth of information in any decent library and on the www and I am not interested in becoming involved in a slanging match (I've seen what happens to other people when these issues are raised).

Was the establishment of the modern state of Israel a good idea ? No - as it has caused a great deal of "disharmony" in that region.
As to Israel settlement policies - these are a bone of contention and a cause of a great deal of the violence on the part of the Palestinians who have been made into disenfranchised and impoverished refugees in their own lands. Are you denying this ?

PS I do NOT support the violence on the part of the Palestinians against innocent (I can understand why they might behave this way) Israelis anymore than I support the use of Israeli armour and airpower against the families and mostly unarmed Palestinians in response to these attacks - the actions of both parties is counterproductive and will lead nowhere except for more of the same.

Others have suggested that a multinational peacekeeping force be sent to Israel/Palestine to enforce and impose peace there and that both parties be compelled to behave themselves and negotiate an equitable settement - for fear of the stern economic and military reactions of the nations who would provide the peacekeepers - a good idea - it has worked elsewhere - it will work in this case - it has to. It is time for the USA and UK and rest of the world to bite the bullet and do something other than talking to resolve this intractible problem between these two stuburn , fanatical and recoucetrant peoples.
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Minuet
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somerled
Nov 26 2003, 09:25 PM
Minuet:

I will not deny that jews have lived in Palestine historically and going back to times of the golden days of the Egyptian civilisation and beyond.

However - many of the historial pretences sited for establishing the modern state of Israel are contentious or false (based only hearsay or old testiment falsehoods). I wont go into details as these has been discussed in detail by others in that other place and there is wealth of information in any decent library and on the www and I am not interested in becoming involved in a slanging match (I've seen what happens to other people when these issues are raised).




Actually, I would like you to go into detail. Have you ever been to Israel? Have you seen any of the archeological sites there? I have and I can guarantee you that there is a valid historical claim to the land, outside of the bible. In fact your first paragraph and second paragraph contradict each other.

Don't worry, as long as you don't start calling me names - like what happened in "the other place" I won't start flinging accusations at you. If you can keep it clean, I can too.

Quote:
 
Was the establishment of the modern state of Israel a good idea ? No - as it has caused a great deal of "disharmony" in that region. 


As far as I can tell there was "disharmony" in that region long before modern Israel was established. Have you taken a look at what goes on between the Arab nations, all the infighting and wars. Israel is not responsible for any of this. Israel was not responsible for Iraq invading Kuwait or the border fights between Iran and Iraq. Or for that matter the fighting in Lebanon - even though they did get involved. It seems that you are making Israel the scapegoat when the problems in the region go much deeper.

Quote:
 
As to Israel settlement policies - these are a bone of contention and a cause of a great deal of the violence on the part of the Palestinians who have been made into disenfranchised and impoverished refugees in their own lands. Are you denying this ?


I actually am not denying this and if you have read any of my posts in the past you would know this. My problem is that Israel only occupies part of the Palestinians land. Much of it is in Jordan and no one seems to want to ask them for the land back. The land that Israel occupies was won in a war started by the Arab nations, not by Israel. That is a fact that many Palestinian supporters convieniently forget. Come to me with a plan that includes the land Jordan stole and we can talk.

Quote:
 
PS I do support the violence on the part of the Palestinians against innocent (I can understand why they might behave this way) Israelis anymore than I support the use of Israeli armour and airpower against the families and mostly unarmed Palestinians in response to these attacks - the actions of both parties is counterproductive and will lead nowhere except for more of the same.


I hope this was a typo and you meant to say that you DON'T support violence.

Quote:
 
Others have suggested that a multinational peacekeeping force be sent to Israel/Palestine to enforce and impose peace there and that both parties be compelled to behave themselves and negotiate an equitable settement - for fear of the stern economic and military reactions of the nations who would provide the peacekeepers - a good idea - it has worked elsewhere - it will work in this case - it has to. It is time for the USA and UK and rest of the world to bite the bullet and do something other than talking to resolve this intractible problem between these two stuburn , fanatical and recoucetrant peoples.


This might work, but then again it might not as there is more then Palestine and Israel to consider in this picture. Jordan and Syria would probably interfere with any international peacekeeping effort. If the Western world pushes too far then the whole region might collapse. I think that it is time for the Palestinian people to recognize that Israel is not going away and that they would do better to negotiate in good will instead of trying to fight an unwinable battle.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
[/QUOTE]
PS I do support the violence on the part of the Palestinians against innocent (I can understand why they might behave this way) Israelis anymore than I support the use of Israeli armour and airpower against the families and mostly unarmed Palestinians in response to these attacks - the actions of both parties is counterproductive and will lead nowhere except for more of the same.
I hope this was a typo and you meant to say that you DON'T support violence. [/QUOTE]
Correct - that was a typo (duely corrected!)


No I haven't visited Israel but I am aware of jewish (well actually semitic) archeological sites and do not dispute that semitic (jewish and other religions) have lived there for millenia. My sister and her husband have visited Israel as part of tour they did of the ancient civilisations' ruins (Greece, Rome, some places in Israel and Egypt) but I wish I had , maybe one day . B}

Jordon and Syria would have to accept the situation if a binding and equitable agreement were reached between the Israelis and Palestinians , either one nation including both peoples , or two completely independent and neighbouring nations living in peace with each other - maybe separated by a heavily armed and large multinational peace keeping force who have the power to act and perhaps including Egyptian, Turk, Syrian, Jordanian, Iraqi, Iranian, Pakestani, Indonesian and others (US, UK, Australian) troops under the command of the UN.


Rest - I'll get back to you shorty. :huh:
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
somerled
Nov 27 2003, 01:30 AM
Rest - I'll get back to you shorty. :huh:

HEY! They lady asked you to refrain from name calling! ;) :lol:
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
I remain somewhat skeptical of the selective view of the UN expressed in this thread and others. When discussing the current situation in Iraq, the US is automatically "wrong" for having "ignored the UN". Yet, in other issues, the UN's decisions can be taken or left? :rolleyes:

Israel and Palestinian states were created bya UN Resolution. Israel recognized that resolution and have a nation that is 45 years old. Palestine refused to recognize the resolution because they would have to also recognize Israel and 45 years later still have no country.

Worse yet, because the Palestinian people and the leaders of other Arab countries have attacked Istrael (1948, 1950's, 1967, 1973 and in on-going individual skirmishes) in violation of the UN resolution they have lost most of the original land granted to the Palestinians in the resolution. Who have they lost most of it to - Jordan, another Arab state, who doesn't appear willing to even discuss giving it back.

What is Israel's history of the land that they have taken in battle? Recent events have shown minor willingness to concede areas (relative to the roadmap) combined stubborn determination to hold on the settlements they have (and even build more) in the face of continued violence - behavior not conduscive to resolving the issue.

But what is their history long-term? They gave back a HUGE, resource wealthy track of land to Egypt. What did they get out of the deal? Egypt agreed to abide by the original UN resolution and make the area a demilitarized zone.

While much has been made of Israel's no-votes on certain UN resolutions (like an anti-terrorism conference which passed anyway and apparently had no effect on the situation when held), little is said about the on-going refusal to recognize the UN by other parties in the region. If they continue to do that, there is no reason to suggest they would respect a UN peace keeping force in the region either.
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