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Alien Crew Members on the Enterprise
Topic Started: Nov 25 2003, 11:51 PM (571 Views)
24thcenstfan
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
More and more I am beginning to think that a Vulcan should have never been made a part of this Enterprise crew...or any other alien for that matter. This Trek series is supposed to represent early exploration, Starfleet is still in the early stages of establishing an interplanetary diplomacy and the Prime Directive hasn’t been established. As a result, we often see a raw, unseasoned, rough and tumble approach to exploration, communication and First Contact.

All of the descriptive words that I have used so far invoke images of emotion being displayed…characteristics that are not supposed to describe a Vulcan. I stated earlier in this thread that I enjoyed seeing T’Pol display emotion…and that is the problem. I no longer think of T’Pol as Vulcan. To me, she is simply a human with odd ears. If B&B were not going to have T’Pol maintain the norm of behavior that we have come to associate with what it means to be Vulcan, then Blalock should have been written onto the show as a human character.

However, I am not surprised that T’Pol has slowly been turned into a human (in regards to emotion). I think possibly for the same reason that many were looking forward to this Trek series (it is raw, new to exploration and rules of behavior haven’t been established). In short, because there may have been a certain expectation about the overall series (that the characters and the scripts would exhibit certain rough emotional characteristics), T’Pol has been made to conform and exhibit those same characteristics. This could have been because of a B&B misperception of what the viewer wanted or because of what the viewer actually wanted.

It makes you wonder though, why was this particular Vulcan role so poorly written (conspiracy, stupidity, misogyny)? She is the first major female Vulcan lead (the only other two leads, Spock and Tuvok, were male). Both Spock and Tuvok had excellent material to work with…without compromising their core Vulcan qualities. Could the Century be an important factor in making a Vulcan role succeed? Maybe the young (in terms of space exploration) Enterprise isn’t ready to have (B&B couldn’t reconcile the two) such an extreme opposite (personality wise) as a member of their crew?
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Swidden
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Adm. Gadfly-at-large; Provisional wRench-fly at large
24thcenstfan
Nov 25 2003, 08:51 PM
More and more I am beginning to think that a Vulcan should have never been made a part of this Enterprise crew...or any other alien for that matter. This Trek series is supposed to represent early exploration, Starfleet is still in the early stages of establishing an interplanetary diplomacy and the Prime Directive hasn’t been established. As a result, we often see a raw, unseasoned, rough and tumble approach to exploration, communication and First Contact.

All of the descriptive words that I have used so far invoke images of emotion being displayed…characteristics that are not supposed to describe a Vulcan. I stated earlier in this thread that I enjoyed seeing T’Pol display emotion…and that is the problem. I no longer think of T’Pol as Vulcan. To me, she is simply a human with odd ears. If B&B were not going to have T’Pol maintain the norm of behavior that we have come to associate with what it means to be Vulcan, then Blalock should have been written onto the show as a human character.

However, I am not surprised that T’Pol has slowly been turned into a human (in regards to emotion). I think possibly for the same reason that many were looking forward to this Trek series (it is raw, new to exploration and rules of behavior haven’t been established). In short, because there may have been a certain expectation about the overall series (that the characters and the scripts would exhibit certain rough emotional characteristics), T’Pol has been made to conform and exhibit those same characteristics. This could have been because of a B&B misperception of what the viewer wanted or because of what the viewer actually wanted.

It makes you wonder though, why was this particular Vulcan role so poorly written (conspiracy, stupidity, misogyny)? She is the first major female Vulcan lead (the only other two leads, Spock and Tuvok, were male). Both Spock and Tuvok had excellent material to work with…without compromising their core Vulcan qualities. Could the Century be an important factor in making a Vulcan role succeed? Maybe the young (in terms of space exploration) Enterprise isn’t ready to have (B&B couldn’t reconcile the two) such an extreme opposite (personality wise) as a member of their crew?

At least in part, 24, I don't buy the premise that this Enterprise crew isn't ready to deal with "such an extreme opposite". They're dealing with alien races that they are meeting for the first time. If nothing else, due to the Vulcan presence on Earth since ST: First Contact they should quite accustomed to a full-fledged Vulcan, either male or female. It really just comes down to the idea that the producers probably should have put a green-skined girl from Orion (a la TOS) on Enterprise instead of a Vulcan.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Maybe we are looking at it the wrong way?

In the next 100 to 200 years we will see humans go from this "rough and tumble" people as you put it, to the kirks and picards (better humans per say)

So why is it not acceptable to believe that Vulcans become better Vulcans in the same time period?

Maybe T'pol is just a "rough and tumble" Vulcan and in the next 100 to 200 years we will see the Vulcan people grow into the Spoks and Tovoks.

Maybe the formation of the federation and Vulcan being part of the federation – will see a more logic driven Vulcan then the ones of Enterprise. Maybe the Vulcan people wanting to stand out in the crowd of there new federation took to logic with more earnest.


Or maybe you cant make a sex symbol out of a woman with out emotion
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Wichita
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I thought 24's raised such interesting points that they deserved to discussed separately from the original "Similitude" Review Thread. I hope that's OK with everyone.

I have long thought the Vulcan character should have been a second-tier character. Given this is Earth's first Warp 5 vessel, I would expect the crew to be Earth's best and brightest. The competition for captain should have been fierce - Archer, as victor of that contest, may not be the most polished, but should exhibit some characteristic that tells you why he won.

The second in command I would have made a human woman - perhaps the one who was beat out by Archer for command, who doesn't agree with Starfleet's assessment that woman aren't ready to take such a role, and who thinks that attitude is the only reason Archer got the nod over her. That would keep some measure of continuity with TOS and would set up conflict with both Archer and the Captain's buddy, Trip. When Archer's held hostage (insert epidsode name here), a human would still be in charge of Earth's first deep space mission.

Trip and Reed I like basically as is. Younger officers than the Captain and First Officer, but with some experience and expertise in their field.

Phlox I originally had no problem with, but this season has not come off well at all.

I would insert the Vulcan character in the Hoshi-level role (Hey, it's not like she's done much for the last two seasons anyway :P ). I would keep some of the anger and rebelliousness that T'Pol has displayed - in a secondary role, she could be an atypical Vulcan with less consequence to continuity.

Hoshi (as translator) and Mayweather should become the occasionally seen Ensigns rather that series regulars - since that's what they have been anyway.

Forget the BS that humans have done away with intolerance, etc, that Archer so often spouts. They are 100 years away from a devastating planetary civil war. There are crew who should still be mad at each other about the war, but be willing to try to get along in order to get the chance to be on this ship.

As for the "Vulcans holding us back", it strikes me that they are trying to have it both ways. Are we supposed to believe they cured all the world's diseases with no help from the Vulcans as well? Or did the Vulcans help with some things but not others?

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TribbleMom
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24thcenstfan
Nov 25 2003, 10:51 PM
It makes you wonder though, why was this particular Vulcan role so poorly written (conspiracy, stupidity, misogyny)?

I recall reading an interview with Berman a while ago where he stated that they intended to show the Vulcans in an "evolutionary state" of developing their disciplines. All the Vulcans are intentionally written as a bit more emotional and less in control than the Vulcan's of the next century (Spock's era).

However, I find that a bit tough to swallow for this reason: Surak, the father of the Vulcan way of life based on logic over emotion, established his philosophy about 2000 years prior to Spock's era. That means that by the Enterprise era, Vulcans have had 1900 years to study and adopt this philosophy. And they seem not to have done too thorough a job of it.

The Surak we saw in TOS's "Savage Curtain" had WWAAAYYY more control than Soval and T'Pol seem to. And don't even get me started on the Vulcan doctors we saw in "Stigma." Where are their ethics and respect for life; didn't they ever hear of IDIC?

It's just hard for me to believe that Vulcans haven't "gotten it" during the last 1900 years, and then suddenly reach an epiphany within one generation.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Wichita
Nov 26 2003, 10:31 AM
As for the "Vulcans holding us back", it strikes me that they are trying to have it both ways. Are we supposed to believe they cured all the world's diseases with no help from the Vulcans as well? Or did the Vulcans help with some things but not others?

I would think so, the Vulcans seem to want to protect humanity (at lest that’s the way they see it) from a galaxy that they are not ready for, and so healed them back (or rather didn’t give them the technology of faster warp drives)

But when it comes to hunger and decease on earth, I would assume they would be more then willing to help as long as humanity asked for the help.

Not giving a society the technology to expand its self (in to the galaxy) because you feel they are not ready for such an endeavor. Can be seen as a logical thought.

Not giving a society the technology to feed and control sickness is just plain wrong, if this society is able to interact with you and you can help.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
TribbleMom
Nov 26 2003, 12:01 PM
It's just hard for me to believe that Vulcans haven't "gotten it" during the last 1900 years, and then suddenly reach an epiphany within one generation.

Maybe the formation of the federation, and the interaction with other peoples on a more permanent basses help expedite the process.

We humans have been at each other thoughts since time began until now. I find it had to believe that in a 100 years we will be where Archer is, and 100 years after that we will be where Kirk is. But in the world of star trek it happens, so why cant the Vulcans go though such a change is this amount of time.
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Fesarius
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24thcenstfan,

Excellent post. There is much meat there, but let me ask a question. Do we know, from what has been seen and heard on ENT thus far, that T'Pol is 100% Vulcan?

Quote:
 
However, I find that a bit tough to swallow for this reason: Surak, the father of the Vulcan way of life based on logic over emotion, established his philosophy about 2000 years prior to Spock's era. That means that by the Enterprise era, Vulcans have had 1900 years to study and adopt this philosophy. And they seem not to have done too thorough a job of it.

TribbleMom,

Your point about Surak is very well taken. Had it not been for that segment, I would submit that T'Pol--existing roughly 100 years before the Spock we know--could have displayed something (emotions and other characteristics) that don't 'fit the mold,' so to speak.

Side note: Is it presumptuous for us to think that all Vulcans ought to be of one mindset with regard to emotions? Again, I'm only asking the question.
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TribbleMom
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Fesarius
Nov 26 2003, 12:31 PM
Side note: Is it presumptuous for us to think that all Vulcans ought to be of one mindset with regard to emotions? Again, I'm only asking the question.

True enough. There are always some folks who don't want to fit into the common mold in any society or group. Sybok, for instance. And that ship of Vulcans we saw in the Enterprise episode "Fusion." However, they're usually viewed by the majority as an outcast minority, and we're basing our expectations on the behavior of the majority.

I suppose, in reverse, nearly all the Vulcans would expect nearly all Humans to be emotional and somewhat illogical beings. After all, that would be the logical thing to expect, wouldn't it?
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Swidden
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I agree that we should not be presuming that just because T'Pol is Vulcan that she must be the same temperament as other Vulcan's seen to date (Spock, Tuvok, Sarek, Saavik and Valeris come most immediately to mind. There have been some differences in the ones we have already see, but all have been at least outwardly Vulcan in their demeanor.

I just think that if they wanted a female main character that was to be a sex symbol, or even (to use a largely antiquated term) a sex kitten, then they could have picked a race other than Vulcan...
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Minuet
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I think that one thing that people are forgetting about T'pol is that she did contract that illness when she underwent the mind meld in season 2. This could explain her atypical behavior.
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24thcenstfan
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
Wichita
Nov 26 2003, 09:31 AM
I thought 24's raised such interesting points that they deserved to discussed separately from the original "Similitude" Review Thread.  I hope that's OK with everyone.

For a minute there, I was thinking that I had really been out of it on November 25th. :blink: I created a separate post and couldn't even remember doing it. :lol: :wave2:
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24thcenstfan
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
Dandandat
Nov 26 2003, 09:17 AM
Maybe T'pol is just a "rough and tumble" Vulcan and in the next 100 to 200 years we will see the Vulcan people grow into the Spoks and Tovoks.

I don’t know if I can buy that. The kind of mental discipline, rigorous philosophy, societal norms of behavior that 23rd and 24th Century Vulcans exhibit is so contrary to what we are seeing in T’Pol. I would imagine that it would take many centuries for such norms to develop. Also, we have to take into consideration the differences in behavior between T’Pol and the other Vulcans that have been shown throughout Seasons 1,2 and 3. All of the other Vulcans, except for the V’tosh ka’tur, have exhibited the Vulcan-like behavior that we are more used to seeing in the 23rd and 24th Centuries.

The V’tosh ka’tur “Vulcan’s without logic” are a minority on Vulcan…this further leads me to believe that strict norms of behavior had already developed, and had been entrenched in Vulcan society by the 22nd Century.

I am more apt to accept the theory Minuet proposes, which is T’Pol’s behavior might possibly be symptoms of the Pa’nar Syndrome she contracted when Tolaris performed a mind meld on her.
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24thcenstfan
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
Fesarius
Nov 26 2003, 01:31 PM
Do we know, from what has been seen and heard on ENT thus far, that T'Pol is 100% Vulcan?

There is nothing in T’Pol’s Bio (provided at startrek.com) that would lead me to believe that she is anything but full-blooded Vulcan. However, one can never be sure of anything with Enterprise characters. Next week, B&B might just decide to make T’Pol a Romulan, a Bolian or a Breen. :wow:

Thanks to Minuet’s post, I am now more inclined to believe that T’Pol’s displays of emotion are side effects of Pa’nar Syndrome. However, if this were the case, I would have expected B&B to be a little more forthcoming in the reasons behind her increasingly human-like qualities. Instead, we have sort of been left blowing in the wind trying to figure out what is going on. <_<



P.S. Hey Fesarius...long time no talk. :( Hope all is well with you and the family. :D
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Fesarius
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Quote:
 
I suppose, in reverse, nearly all the Vulcans would expect nearly all Humans to be emotional and somewhat illogical beings. After all, that would be the logical thing to expect, wouldn't it?

TribbleMom,

Nicely said. :)

Quote:
 
I think that one thing that people are forgetting about T'pol is that she did contract that illness when she underwent the mind meld in season 2. This could explain her atypical behavior.

Minuet,

Very keen observation. I had forgotten that. That would help to explain much, although (speaking solely for myself) I wouldn't necessarily need that 'condition' to placate me with regard to the behavior/character development of T'Pol thus far. :)

Quote:
 
P.S. Hey Fesarius...long time no talk. sad.gif Hope all is well with you and the family.

24thcenstfan,

Just saw your last line. Yes, all is well with Piper and I, and the little ones, thank you. I think we need to rekindle the Charmed thread. :yes: :wow:
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