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I'm impressed Mr Bush !
Topic Started: Nov 20 2003, 03:52 PM (235 Views)
nztrekkie
Lieutenant
President Bush's UK speech gives me some cause to think there is hope after all.

Admissions of "decades of failed Middle East policies" and straight talking about Israel's need to stop building illegal and immoral settlements and fences, Israel's "daily humiliation of the Palestinian people", etc is certainly new and refreshing talk for an American President.

(Remember too, PM Sharon has already admitted that Israel "occupies" Arab land).

BUT - talk is cheap - when Iraq occupies Kuwait for a few months, in defiance of UN resolutions, 650,000 troops are sent in to the area to remove them, killing 10,000's, Iraq is bombed to pieces, and just to finish them off, sanctions imposed for a decade (which never work) to kill even more men, women and children. During this time, the bombing of Iraq continues for a decade, after which time bogus charges of WMD are enough to invade then bomb the crap out of the country all over again.

COMPARE the illegal occupation by Israel of Palestinian land for DECADES in defiance of UN resolutions. The American response to date - an occassional tap on the wrist occassionally with a wet bus ticket and the continuation of financial aid to enable the Israelis to continue to defy world opinion.

Now, I know the two situations are not totally comparable, however, talk is cheap and whilst the words of Mr Bush sound encouraging - ACTION is required, not just words.

eg: "dismantle the illegal Israeli settlements on occupied Arab land, or WE will".


How could an Arab extremeist justify his actions if this was the talk from the mouth of the American President ???????????

The most powerful weapon in the whole American arsenal is the overt, fair and even handed conducting of foreign policy. NO DOUBLE STANDARDS !!!

After President Bush's admission of past failures in the Middle East, he must press on, and FORCE Israel, (and other "friends" in the region) to buck up their ideas, in the same way Iraq was made to !

Will he ?
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Hoss
Member Avatar
Don't make me use my bare hands on you.
Alrighty, we shouldn't invade Iraq, but you suggest that we go into Palestine and dismantel settlements.

Israel has occupied Palestinian land since 1967 (as opposed to Jordan occupying Palestinian land before), this is really a different era compared to the Kuwait situation. And Israel held the land ostensibly for protection from its Soviet sponsored triumbrant of enemies. Now, I realize they also wanted the land for the sake of getting new land.

I am not sure there is much comparison with the Iraq invasion of Kuwait.

I am in support of Israel giving up Palestinian land, but the Palestinians have to deserve it by proving that they're not going to turn into a nation of terrorists akin to former Afganistan. Currently, the Palestinians have refused to do anything about Hamas, Fatah, Al Aqsa and the rest. There is also Jerusalem which is just about as sticky of a subject as I think you'll find anywhere.

Why do you not demand that Jordan give up the Palestinian land it still holds?

The only way I see any peace in this region is if something extreme happens. Like you suggested, The US says: "OK Israel, this is your new border and your rules for dealing with the Palestinian nation. Ok Palestine, these are your borders and rule, Ok Jordan, this is the land that you are giving to the new nation of Palestine. Any of you start fighting, it will be US troops and hardware that settlest he dispute. Here is Jerusalem, it is now run jointly by the USA, Israel, and Palestine. We all have access to the city and no measure can be approved without the consent of the others. Security for Jerusalem will be the job of the US military and locally designated police force. Oh, and Syria, back off or your next in line after Iraq."

Anyway, that is very extreme and wouldn't go over well, but it is the only thing short of an act of God that I see bringing peace with a minimum of deaths on all sides.
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nztrekkie
Lieutenant
38957
Nov 20 2003, 05:33 PM
The only way I see any peace in this region is if something extreme happens. Like you suggested, The US says: "OK Israel, this is your new border and your rules for dealing with the Palestinian nation. Ok Palestine, these are your borders and rule, Ok Jordan, this is the land that you are giving to the new nation of Palestine. Any of you start fighting, it will be US troops and hardware that settlest he dispute. Here is Jerusalem, it is now run jointly by the USA, Israel, and Palestine. We all have access to the city and no measure can be approved without the consent of the others. Security for Jerusalem will be the job of the US military and locally designated police force. Oh, and Syria, back off or your next in line after Iraq."


EXACTLY !

just like in a game of sport, no one can complain about the Umpire / Ref as long as the Ref is consistent with both sides. Even if the ref is incompetant, makes bad calls etc, it doesn't matter.

Just as long as the Ref makes the SAME calls to both sides.

When one side is penalised all the time and another side commits the same fouls and gets away with it - that's when you get a boil over.
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Hoss
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Don't make me use my bare hands on you.
Quote:
 
just like in a game of sport, no one can complain about the Umpire / Ref as long as the Ref is consistent with both sides. Even if the ref is incompetant, makes bad calls etc, it doesn't matter.


While Israel has a government to deal with (side), the Palestinians have had Arafat (a murderer) and his puppets as well has such notables as Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa, and all your old favorites. It is a difficult compare with a sporting event as there is no real leadership or government of the Palestinians, just a bunch of murderous, brutal warlords that need killing.

My fantasy would be the USA out of this region all together. I'm tired of the rest of the world looking to us to fix and then blame for other peoples problems.

We became greatly interested in supporting Israel as counter to the Soviet Empire attempting to dominate the region with Egypt, Syria, Jordan. What is never mentioned with our seemingly blind support of Israel is our seemingly blind support of Saudi Arabia, one of the harshest Islamic regimes in the world. It was and is about stability in an oil rich region and a counter to the Soviet attempt to control the world's oil supply.
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Hoss
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Don't make me use my bare hands on you.
Do you really want to see the incredibly harch military solution to Israel-Palestine that I outlined? It would be scary, I still remember Beirut. Not to mention all the Europeans screaming about US unilaterlism and no involvement of the UN (which has proven useless in the region).
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somerled
Member Avatar
Admiral MacDonald RN
Call me cynical - but Bush Jr wants to be reelected next year right.

If he wants that to happen he has to make the right noises and show himself to be a respected and influential world leader and he has to get a lot of US citisens back on side (those who opposed and still oppose USA's military intervention in Iraq).

Why not intervene militarily (the UN should do this if the USA doesn't have the stomach or will to do it immediately) in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
Israel stould be forced to end illegal settlements and forceably evict the trespassing settlers, dismantle that wall, hand the settlements (lock-stock and barrow) over to the Palestinians and force the withdrawal of the Israeli army to internationally recognised Isreali territory (they should clear their minefields as they leave or assist the UN to do it) and tell both parties that if they step out of line they'll pay for it big time.
Equitable rules and land allocation should made to apply to both these two peoples.
The solution is either a new nation including both peoples - with equal rights for all (I don't think the Jewish Israelis are keen on that idea as in generation of so they'd be outnumbered by their islamic countrymen) or two completely independent and totally sovereign nations both with large UN / USA garrisons for while to impose law and order and ensure the peace.
I'm not impressed by the idea of Jordan giving up territory in this - that are recipy for more violence (and these people hold grudges and run vendettas for very long times).
This would take a great deal of wind out the sails of islamist terror organisations and would make great improvements in global peace and security.

Talk is cheap. Promises are cheaper.
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
nztrekkie
Nov 20 2003, 03:52 PM
President Bush's UK speech gives me some cause to think there is hope after all.

Admissions of "decades of failed Middle East policies" and straight talking about Israel's need to stop building illegal and immoral settlements and fences, Israel's "daily humiliation of the Palestinian people", etc is certainly new and refreshing talk for an American President.

(Remember too, PM Sharon has already admitted that Israel "occupies" Arab land).

BUT - talk is cheap - when Iraq occupies Kuwait for a few months, in defiance of UN resolutions, 650,000 troops are sent in to the area to remove them, killing 10,000's, Iraq is bombed to pieces, and just to finish them off, sanctions imposed for a decade (which never work) to kill even more men, women and children. During this time, the bombing of Iraq continues for a decade, after which time bogus charges of WMD are enough to invade then bomb the crap out of the country all over again.

COMPARE the illegal occupation by Israel of Palestinian land for DECADES in defiance of UN resolutions. The American response to date - an occassional tap on the wrist occassionally with a wet bus ticket and the continuation of financial aid to enable the Israelis to continue to defy world opinion.

Now, I know the two situations are not totally comparable, however, talk is cheap and whilst the words of Mr Bush sound encouraging - ACTION is required, not just words.

eg: "dismantle the illegal Israeli settlements on occupied Arab land, or WE will".


How could an Arab extremeist justify his actions if this was the talk from the mouth of the American President ???????????

The most powerful weapon in the whole American arsenal is the overt, fair and even handed conducting of foreign policy. NO DOUBLE STANDARDS !!!

After President Bush's admission of past failures in the Middle East, he must press on, and FORCE Israel, (and other "friends" in the region) to buck up their ideas, in the same way Iraq was made to !

Will he ?

Sorry, but "A" does NOT equal "B".

The rest of your post I'll simply respond with a simple and unadorned:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

because you either still don't get it, don't want to get it, or want to try and make it seem the president said something he didn't. Most likely the latter, because you're a troller.
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Hoss
Member Avatar
Don't make me use my bare hands on you.
somerled
Nov 20 2003, 08:50 PM
Call me cynical - but Bush Jr wants to be reelected next year right.

If he wants that to happen he has to make the right noises and show himself to be a respected and influential world leader and he has to get a lot of US citisens back on side (those who opposed and still oppose USA's military intervention in Iraq).

Why not intervene militarily (the UN should do this if the USA doesn't have the stomach or will to do it immediately) in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
Israel stould be forced to end illegal settlements and forceably evict the trespassing settlers, dismantle that wall, hand the settlements (lock-stock and barrow) over to the Palestinians and force the withdrawal of the Israeli army to internationally recognised Isreali territory  (they should clear their minefields as they leave or assist the UN to do it) and tell both parties that if they step out of line they'll pay for it big time.
Equitable rules and land allocation should made to apply to both these two peoples.
The solution is either a new nation including both peoples - with equal rights for all (I don't think the Jewish Israelis are keen on that idea as in generation of so they'd be outnumbered by their islamic countrymen) or two completely independent and totally sovereign nations both with large UN / USA garrisons for while to impose law and order and ensure the peace.
I'm not impressed by the idea of Jordan giving up territory in this - that are recipy for more violence (and these people hold grudges and run vendettas for very long times).
This would take a great deal of wind out the sails of islamist terror organisations and would make great improvements in global peace and security.

Talk is cheap. Promises are cheaper.

OK, you're cynical. :lol:

Again, if the US acts toughly or unilaterally, then all you cynics just complain about the big terrible American Empire throwing its weight around. The UN is worthless and hasn't been able to solve this problem for decades. In fact, the UN helped to give us this problem.
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