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1930-40's Jewish terrorist activities in Palestine
Topic Started: Sep 25 2003, 09:28 PM (829 Views)
nztrekkie
Lieutenant
(The title of this post is "Jewish" terrorist acts, not "Israeli" terrorist acts simply becuase Israel did NOT formerly exist at the time these events occurred).

I note here three of the worst and most irrefutable terrorist activities carried out by the Jewish “Irgun” and “Lehy” groups against both the Arabs and British, to advance their political cause - the formation of Israel. By any standard, modern or otherwise, these acts are surely unmistakable terrorism and occurred years before other such groups were formed such as Fatah or the PLO.

Below is a Jewish-American web site link – it contains much info on many of the terrorist activities of Israeli “Freedom Fighters” from the 1930’s and 40’s.

(There is so much irrefutable and documented evidence of these Jewish terrorist activities, it is impossible to deny that they happened, and this web site, to its credit, does not attempt to do so. It does however, as one would expect all sides to do, paint the events in the best possible light for the Israelis. Other sites, of course, cast the same events in a quite different light. Irrespective of who is writing what – it does not change the fact that these three events were REAL and DID happen).

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/folke.html
(a Jewish-American Co-operative Enterprise)


1. Count Folke Bernadotte Assassination

Following, is a clear admission of terrorism, at the beginning of an article dealing with the assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte, a highly respected UN Peace envoy, sent to the region to try to mediate in the Palestine partition dispute –(the assassination carried out by future Israeli Prime Minister Begin’s terrorist group “Irgun”)..........

“During the fight for Jewish statehood, extremist military groups sometimes resorted to the use of terrorist tactics. One such instance occurred in 1948 when members of the Jewish underground organization LEHI (Fighters for the Freedom of Israel) killed UN Peace Mediator Count Folke Bernadotte to protest his diplomatic efforts to modify the Palestine partition plan.”

(as if getting more than HALF of Palestine wasn’t enough ? Remember too, future PM Begin, the leader of the Irgun terror group was compared to Hitler, by his own PM of the day, David Ben-Gurion.)

I would ask the question, how is the Jewish LEHI group (“Fighters for the Freedom of Israel”) any different to the PLO (“Palestinian Liberation Organisation”) ?
Remember, the PLO was formed MANY YEARS LATER than these initial Jewish terror groups.

At least the “P” in PLO did actually exist before it was overrun and then occupied by Israelis and its’ name changed. At least the “P” people were fighting for something that was theirs and which was taken from them.

Another question – how could the Jewish LEHI terror group be fighting for the “freedom” of something (Israel) that did NOT yet exist ?

Is this the first example of a nation or group taking pre-emptive action to advance their cause ?

Why is the Irgun terrorist group referred to as an “underground” organisation on the Jewish site ? – this implies that they are the victims of some type of take over by an external force, (as in the WW2 underground resistance) when in fact, it is quite the reverse; they are doing the taking over.


2. King David Hotel Bombing

This hotel, which was the office for the Mandate administration of the British at that point, was bombed, due to the British demand that Jewish soldiers returning from WW2 (who fought for the allies) be disarmed BEFORE being allowed to migrate to Palestine. The British correctly saw that 10,000’s of armed Jewish soldiers migrating to Palestine would give them total dominance over the almost defenceless Palestinian people there.

The call to disarm was ignored, and to make the point further, this hotel, the British administrative office, was bombed by Irgun terrorists, killing 91 civilians.



3. Deir Yassen Massacre

Here is a quote directly from future Israeli PM Begin’s OWN BOOK, called “The Revolt”, published in 1951, p164 –

(after hearing of the atrocity at Deir Yassen) .......

“arabs from throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of Irgun butchery, were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede.”

Three hundred thousand (300,000) Palestinians left their land in panic in the ONE MONTH between the events at Deir Yassen (April 10, 1948) and the end of the British Mandate, (May 14, 1948) shortly following.

If you surf the net, you’ll see conflicting estimates of how many civilians were butchered at Deir Yassen (atrocities are never straight forward for obvious reasons); most accounts settle on around 100-200 dead, many of them women and children.

Although there might be debate as to the extent of the killing and destruction that took place day, there is no source that I have found which denies that the atrocity actually took place. The Palestinian people were “induced to believe” wildly exaggerated stories of the butchery, because this enabled the Palestinians to be chased from their land with the minimum of effort by the Jewish terror groups.

Stories of the atrocity spread like wild fire. It was, by any account, a superbly efficient operation.

Remember, these events all took place BEFORE the creation of Israel, before widespread conflict between Palestinians and Israelis existed, before Palestinians uprisings and violence (the latest uprisings started in 1988), before suicide bombers, decades before Yasser Arafat at the PLO, etc…………. The Jewish terrorism in Palestine was on an unheard of and previously unknown scale and it had the exact effect desired.


As a result of these terrorist tactics by the gangs of 2 future Israeli Prime-ministers (Begin and Shamir), and the influx of Jews to the region, the balance of the Jewish and Arab populations in Palestine changed immensely in the years leading up to the creation of Israel.

Between the turn of the century (~1900) and 1948 (creation of Israel), Palestinians fled out of, and Jews migrated into Palestine, changing the balance as follows –



1900 (Palestine) 1948 (Israel)

Jews 20,000 750,000

Palestinians 750,000 165,000



(BTW – did you know Israel bought arms from the Soviet Union shortly after it’s creation, but later decided that the US was going to be a better friend?
Did you also know - I didn’t until recently - that the Camp David Accords signed in 1977 by Egypt (Sadat) and Israel (Begin) contained specific requirements for a deal to be negotiated between the two parties on the question of a Palestinian homeland – 26 years later, it’s still not done.)


There is no doubt the Jewish people suffered terribly in the war years and that can not ever be undone. But, to inflict suffering on others who had absolutely nothing to do with inflicting this suffering is not helpful to anyone’s plight. Nor does it guarantee anyone’s sovereignty, safety or right to exist. Decades of middle east unrest and violence clearly demonstrate this.


There is no doubt Yasser Arafat has engaged in terrorism and violence for over 40 years. I don’t question that. A more pertinent question might be, “why, for so long, has he had to ?”
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ANOVA
Vice Admiral
The Egyptian thug Arafat commits terrorism becuse he wnats to destroy the Zionist state of Israel.

The need for a Zionist state became apparent after Auschwitz. Only a Jewish state could forever gaurantee the safety of Jews.

Israel was formed like every other modern nation state. Through force.

The Jews have an historical claim to the area.

And yet their one instance of one Arab Israeli being involved in the modern bombings. why? Because democracy has a civilising influence.

Those "refugees" weren't forced out by the Israelis. They were told to leave by the panarabian league just before war was declared by the Arabs. The Arabs lost the war and refused to give citizenship to those they helped displace.

Arafat helped to turn Lebonon from the Riviera of the mid-east into a wastland. when did Lebonon become part of the occupied territories?


All in good fun
ANOVA
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nztrekkie
Lieutenant
nztrekkie
Sep 25 2003, 09:28 PM
(The title of this post is "Jewish" terrorist acts, not "Israeli" terrorist acts simply becuase Israel did NOT formerly exist at the time these events occurred).

I note here three of the worst and most irrefutable terrorist activities carried out by the Jewish “Irgun” and “Lehy” groups against both the Arabs and British, to advance their political cause - the formation of Israel.  By any standard, modern or otherwise, these acts are surely unmistakable terrorism and occurred years before other such groups were formed such as Fatah or the PLO.

Below is a Jewish-American web site link – it contains much info on many of the terrorist activities of Israeli “Freedom Fighters” from the 1930’s and 40’s.

(There is so much irrefutable and  documented evidence...........



I see from a quick visit to TF - just to confirm that I'm not missing anything there - that today is Jewish New Year.

I had no idea of this and did not intend to post my post because it was this day - just to be clear.

The info on my post was simply stuff I did not know until the Iraq thing happened and thought others might not know it either.
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
No, Jewish New Year (Rosh Hashana) doesn't start until Friday at sundown.

By my watch that shouldn't be for another hour or two in New Zealand.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Quote:
 
Those "refugees" weren't forced out by the Israelis. They were told to leave by the panarabian league just before war was declared by the Arabs. The Arabs lost the war and refused to give citizenship to those they helped displace.


Thanks Anova.

I tried to educate NZ about this fact yesterday, but he chose not to believe me, because it didn't fit into his world view.

NZ, I do believe you when you say you didn't know about Rosh Hashana, which doesn't start until tomorrow here. You have shown clearly in the past that you know nothing about Jewish history and culture. And you haven't really bothered to ask.
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nztrekkie
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Minuet
Sep 25 2003, 11:17 PM
You have shown clearly in the past that you know nothing about Jewish history and culture. And you haven't really bothered to ask.

excuse me ? I never ask ?

I freely admit I know nothing about Jewish religion and custom - but I think it unfair to say I have never asked - what was yesterday about then ?

You still have not confirmed to me whether or not the Jewish claim to Israel is based soley on the Old Testament. Do you know ? Is it too big a question to answer on a message board ? Why can you not answer me ?

Is Anova saying the "historical claim" to Israel is based on the Old Testament ?

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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Quote:
 
I freely admit I know nothing about Jewish religion and custom - but I think it unfair to say I have never asked - what was yesterday about then ?


Yesterday was about trolling. You made an uncalled for remark (not question) in the wrong forum and when called on it asked about the Jewish claim to the land to try to make it look like you were asking a real question in the first place. Stop playing games with me. It doesn't work. If you really wanted to know the Jewish side of it you would ask questions instead of just listing your version of atrocities.
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nztrekkie
Lieutenant
ANOVA
Sep 25 2003, 09:43 PM
The Egyptian thug Arafat commits terrorism becuse he wnats to destroy the Zionist state of Israel.

The need for a Zionist state became apparent after Auschwitz. Only a Jewish state could forever gaurantee the safety of Jews.

Israel was formed like every other modern nation state. Through force.

The Jews have an historical claim to the area.

And yet their one instance of one Arab Israeli being involved in the modern bombings. why? Because democracy has a civilising influence.

Those "refugees" weren't forced out by the Israelis. They were told to leave by the panarabian league just before war was declared by the Arabs. The Arabs lost the war and refused to give citizenship to those they helped displace.

Arafat helped to turn Lebonon from the Riviera of the mid-east into a wastland. when did Lebonon become part of the occupied territories?


All in good fun
ANOVA

what did the Palestinian people have to do with Auschwitz ? Nothing.

So it is okay to ESTABLISH nations through force (like Israel), but it is not acceptable to MAINTAIN nations through force (Iraq under Saddam).

Also, if it is okay to establish nations through force (like Israel), then you should have no problem with Arab terrorists attempting to establish THEIR own homeland through force either then ?

The Zionist movement to establish a Jewish homeland began YEARS before the holocost.

I don't see how it can be seriously argued, after weighing all the evidence (including that of the Israelis), that the Palestinians simply walked off their land because they were asked to. That sounds just silly when Jewish terrorist leader Begin himself wrote of the " maddened uncontrollable stampede" of the Palestinian people.

Why would anyone flee their home in a "uncontrollable stampede" if they were merely leaving for their own safety, after having being asked to leave by a friend ??

I mean, really ????
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nztrekkie
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Minuet
Sep 25 2003, 11:32 PM
Quote:
 
I freely admit I know nothing about Jewish religion and custom - but I think it unfair to say I have never asked - what was yesterday about then ?


Yesterday was about trolling. You made an uncalled for remark (not question) in the wrong forum and when called on it asked about the Jewish claim to the land to try to make it look like you were asking a real question in the first place. Stop playing games with me. It doesn't work. If you really wanted to know the Jewish side of it you would ask questions instead of just listing your version of atrocities.

alright - I have read yesterdays postings and PERHAPS, my closing reference to the use of the bible to stamp authority on the middle east was a LITTLE out of context with the rest of the post.

However, my question still stands and if you are not prepared to answer it I guess I'll just have to find out for myself somewhere else.

I do find out more and more from reading and listening and asking about BOTH sides of the situation. Why I might be dwelling more on the Palestinian side in recent months, (and on this board) is that I feel such an idiot not knowing more of their plight in the first place. I really believed all my growing up life that the poor Israelis were alway being attacked by the nasty Arabs, Egyptians, Syrians, Palestians and from what you saw on TV this was true !!!!!

Tanks rolling into Israel, airplanes being blown up, bombings, etc ........how could there be another side to that ?????

But there is......and this is what I am learning about now.

Are you big enough to admit that all 3 instances of Jewish terrorism in my original post, actually occurred ????

Or, if you feel they didn't occur, please put your story forward as to why not.
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
nztrekkie
Sep 25 2003, 11:25 PM

excuse me ? I never ask ?

I freely admit I know nothing about Jewish religion and custom - but I think it unfair to say I have never asked - what was yesterday about then ?

A suggestion... why not ask questions instead of making accusations?

Your rant at top could have been more constructive. Rather than pointing out atrocities (the first one... killing Bernadotte by LEHI... were any of these people caught? I missed that, both in your post and in the link... or else this could have been sheer speculation), why not ASK questions about Israel, Judaism, Zionism, or whatever?

You'd no doubt get better results... with a lot of your posts. :huh:
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nztrekkie
Lieutenant
Admiralbill_gomec
Sep 25 2003, 11:59 PM

Your rant at top could have been more constructive. Rather than pointing out atrocities (the first one... killing Bernadotte by LEHI... were any of these people caught? I missed that, both in your post and in the link... or else this could have been sheer speculation), why not ASK questions about Israel, Judaism, Zionism, or whatever?




of course the people who assassinated the UN PEACE envoy were caught !!!!

how else would we know who it was ???????

Begin admits he did it for ****'s sake; he has even written about it !!!!!


I guess for political reasons, and to further his own agenda, the main contender for being the FIRST PM of Israel, Ben Gurion, let him off.

(probably because he thought he would be unpopular with the people and risk his chances of being PM if he prosecuted Begin)
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
I have read widely and had many discussions with some very learned people who are knowledgeable about historical issues. (One is a senior lecturer in middle east history and also a practicing jew) and I have worked with engineers and scientists who are jewish.

The claim that the jewish people have a historical claim to the land they now occupy (most of Palistine) is based on dogma and myth but not on historical fact or varifiable by hard archeological evidence. The "evidence" held within the bible can to be taken literally or seriously, this is what my jewish friends tell me and what I have gleened by following up on this myself.

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Swidden
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Adm. Gadfly-at-large; Provisional wRench-fly at large
Well, I think that we can safely say that there is historical evidence that the passages from the Bible have been around a while. Even if all the books of the Old Testament were not collected as they went along for the sake of historical preservation.

NZ, I am going to recommend a book to you. It is called The Bible Unearthed by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman from The Free Press, a division of Simon & Schuster, Inc. The subtitle is "Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of its Sacred Texts." In it is the suggestion that the texts of the Old Testament may have been collected initially during the 6th century B.C.E., possibly based on a previous oral record.

This text may not answer all your questions but at least it may provide you with some possible answers to your question about whether the claim has any historical basis. My read of this book would suggest that there is a claim outside the Bible and that it is possible that revisions to the Bible stories were used to bolster the initial claim.
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Quote:
 
I note here three of the worst and most irrefutable terrorist activities carried out by the Jewish “Irgun” and “Lehy” groups against both the Arabs and British, to advance their political cause - the formation of Israel.


:ermm: ... according to YOUR LINK, the first incident occurred AFTER the formation of Israel.

Quote:
 
By any standard, modern or otherwise, these acts are surely unmistakable terrorism and occurred years before other such groups were formed such as Fatah or the PLO.


:ermm: ... according to YOUR LINK, "Arabs and Jews had been fighting over Palestine for decades and the conflict escalated after the adoption of the UN partition resolution on November 29, 1947. When Israel declared its independence on May 14, 1948, five Arab armies invaded Israel."

The Arabs have been "fighting for decades", but had formed no groups? <_<

Quote:
 
Following,  is a clear admission of terrorism, at the beginning of an article dealing with the assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte, a highly respected UN Peace envoy, sent to the region to try to mediate in the Palestine partition dispute –(the assassination carried out by future Israeli Prime Minister Begin’s terrorist group “Irgun”)..........


:ermm: ... according to YOUR LINK, LEHI, not "Irgun", carried out the assination. "Irgun" and Begin were not mentioned in that portion of your link.

Quote:
 
(as if getting more than HALF of Palestine wasn’t enough ? Remember too, future PM Begin, the leader of the Irgun terror group was compared to Hitler, by his own PM of the day, David Ben-Gurion.)


:ermm: ... actually, the UN decided on how the land was be partitioned. According to the map supplied with YOUR LINK, Israel appeared to get quite a bit less than half of the area affected.

:ermm: ... according to YOUR LINK, Begin is not involved in the incident so I'm not sure of the point of your reference.

Quote:
 
At least the “P” in PLO did actually exist before it was overrun and then occupied by Israelis and its’ name changed. At least the “P” people were fighting for something that was theirs and which was taken from them.

Another question – how could the Jewish LEHI terror group be fighting for the “freedom” of something (Israel) that did NOT yet exist ?

Is this the first example of a nation or group taking pre-emptive action to advance their cause ?


:ermm: ... according to YOUR LINK (AGAIN), Israel existed BEFORE the incident, in question, occurred. Therefore, the rest of your arguement is false.

It would appear that your dispute is actually with the UN for having created Israel and for setting up the boundaries that it did.

Quote:
 
Why is the Irgun terrorist group referred to as an “underground” organisation on the Jewish site ? – this implies that they are the victims of some type of take over by an external force, (as in the WW2 underground resistance) when in fact, it is quite the reverse; they are doing the taking over.


Did you forget the "five Arab armies invaded Isreal" part of the story?

Also, unlike the PLO and Hamas, the group responsible for this incident, was dissolved and the people who carried out the assination tried by the courts. By all accounts, they did NOT receive hero status and their families financial bonuses.

Bombing of King David Hotel

Since your link didn't actually go to the information, I thought that I would provide it.


http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/King_David.html

Quote:
 
This hotel, which was the office for the Mandate administration of the British at that point, was bombed, due to the British demand that Jewish soldiers returning from WW2 (who fought for the allies) be disarmed BEFORE being allowed to migrate to Palestine. The British correctly saw that 10,000’s of armed Jewish soldiers migrating to Palestine would give them total dominance over the almost defenceless Palestinian people there.


Since this was not referred to in the link at all and I couldn't find any verification of this in a 10 minute web search, I only have this paragraph to go on.

This hotel, which was the office for the Mandate administration of the British at that point, was bombed, due to the British demand that Jewish soldiers returning from WW2 (who fought for the allies) be disarmed BEFORE being allowed to migrate to Palestine.

Actually the bombing appears to be in response to the the British invasion of a Jewish agency and the imprisonment of 2500 Jews. Assuming, however, your statement is true about the British call for disarmament, several points should be noted:

1) "... Jewish soldiers RETURNING from WW2 ..." These weren't people who were MIGRATING to Palestine as you state later - these were people who had lived in the region PRIOR to the war and were seeking to return to their homes. How do I know that? Britain, in violation of its own immigration policies, was not permitting immigration to Palestine by Jews in this period. There is AMPLE evidence to demonstrate that Jews who attempted to migrate to Palestine at this time were either turned back to a war-ravaged Europe or were incarcarated without trial in camps.

2) "...(who fought for the allies) ..." As opposed to the Arabs who fought with the Axis powers. Did the British also demand disarmament of those veterans? Did the Arabs disarm themselves? If they didn't agree to that, then they were hardly defenseless, were they?

Question: Before Palestinian suicide bombers dressed as Orthodox Jews detonate their bombs on busses crowdes with families with children, do they issue warning for evacuation as the "Jewish terrorists" you are condeming did?

Quote:
 
Three hundred thousand (300,000) Palestinians left their land in panic in the ONE MONTH between the events at Deir Yassen (April 10, 1948) and the end of the British Mandate, (May 14, 1948) shortly following.


The fact that the armies of FIVE Arab nations had been massing on the borders of the region for months and were expected to attack the region in May, of course, had absolutely nothing to do with people deciding to flee the region. :rolleyes:

Quote:
 
If you surf the net, you’ll see conflicting estimates of how many civilians were butchered at Deir Yassen (atrocities are never straight forward for obvious reasons); most accounts settle on around 100-200 dead, many of them women and children.


If you surf the net, you will also see conflicting estimates of how many Jewish people were killed in random attacks during the same period by various Arab groups. (The ones you say didn't exist.)

Quote:
 
Remember, these events all took place BEFORE the creation of Israel, before widespread conflict between Palestinians and Israelis existed, before Palestinians uprisings and violence (the latest uprisings started in 1988), before suicide bombers, decades before Yasser Arafat at the PLO, etc…………. The Jewish terrorism in Palestine was on an unheard of and previously unknown scale and it had the exact effect desired.


:huh: :huh: If this statement were true, why did the British use the excuse of "escalating/potential conflict" as the reason/justification for turning away ships of Jewish refugees DURING and after WWII and the placing of Jewish immigrants into concentration camps post WWII? Although the previously determined immigration quotas for Jews had not been used, the British denied access because of on-going hostilities. If what you say were true, the British had NO justification for their policies against the Jews.

Quote:
 
Did you also know - I didn’t until recently - that the Camp David Accords signed in 1977 by Egypt (Sadat) and Israel (Begin) contained specific requirements for a deal to be negotiated between the two parties on the question of a Palestinian homeland – 26 years later, it’s still not done.)


What influence does Egypt have on the Palestinian leadership?

Quote:
 
There is no doubt Yasser Arafat has engaged in terrorism and violence for over 40 years. I don’t question that. A more pertinent question might be, “why, for so long, has he had to ?”


So now you condone the use of violence to meet your objectives? I thought the purpose of your post was to say it was wrong. :huh:
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
somerled
Sep 26 2003, 07:38 AM
I have read widely and had many discussions with some very learned people who are knowledgeable about historical issues. (One is a senior lecturer in middle east history and also a practicing jew) and I have worked with engineers and scientists who are jewish.

The claim that the jewish people have a historical claim to the land they now occupy (most of Palistine) is based on dogma and myth but not on historical fact or varifiable by hard archeological evidence. The "evidence" held within the bible can to be taken literally or seriously, this is what my jewish friends tell me and what I have gleened by following up on this myself.

Somerled, while I respect that you are quoting the opinion of people you know, we don't know them. Do you have any links that support your view? I would be glad to take a look at them. Although I also have done study on the issue, I have not had the same result that you appear to have had.
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