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A woman’s right to chose?
Topic Started: Sep 13 2003, 09:29 PM (605 Views)
24thcenstfan
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Something Wicked This Fae Comes
Dandandat
Sep 14 2003, 05:03 PM
24 - what of a mens rights? does he not have any?


Yes they do...when it involves their own body.

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you say "It may not be fair to some, but that is the way it is." - well the holocaust wisent fair to some but it was the way it was, should the people responsible for it be let off the hook?

Dan, the holocaust has nothing to do with this topic of conversation. My comment, “It may not be fair to some, but that is the way it is” was made in context to this topic only. To draw a link between my comment and the Holocaust is an irresponsible interpretation on your part. I do not condone the Holocaust in any way shape or form. :angry:

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You see I am all for a woman’s rights, I am not a macho-man looking to repress a woman.

Good then you agree that a woman should have the ultimate right to choose?? :yes: :no:

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I find it frustrating that my rights keep taking a bake seat to others, just because of things that happened before my family even lived in this country

I can sympathize with your frustration…and if the shoe was on the other foot, and men carried children, I would also feel left out/over looked if the man I got pregnant (wow…that is a really odd statement) chose to abort our baby without even discussing the issue with me and because I had no legal recourse. As much as I would hate it, the right for my man to do what he sees fit with his own body would be paramount. Personal individual freedom is very important, and to take that basic freedom away would be a huge injustice.

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or because it is easyer to write a simple law rather then a complex one.

In regards to the right for women to choose, the law must remain simple. In this country, complexity is often tantamount to the reduction of certain rights or a restriction on those rights. With this issue only, placing any restrictions on the right for any adult female (exception is the mentally incapable) to choose is unacceptable to me. However, I am in favor of certain restrictions being placed on minors who want an abortion…but not to the extent that those restrictions could ultimately prohibit that minor from obtaining an abortion.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
"24thcenstfan"
 
Yes they do...when it involves their own body.

Is not a child of there body? and when you say no or it doesn’t matter ... Then why most a man take care of the child after it is born? I really see this a double standard

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Dan, the holocaust has nothing to do with this topic of conversation. My comment, “It may not be fair to some, but that is the way it is” was made in context to this topic only. To draw a link between my comment and the Holocaust is an irresponsible interpretation on your part. I do not condone the Holocaust in any way shape or form. 
what first I never said you would condone the holocaust, that’s why I used it as an example. But im sorry you cant pick and chose when it is appropriate and when it is not appropriate to stand one someone’s rights. Its ether ok or its not ok (and of cores its not ok, then as well as now) While the to issues may be different in severalty they are not different in meaning.

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You see I am all for a woman’s rights, I am not a macho-man looking to repress a woman.

Good then you agree that a woman has the right to choose?

well :D now that’s the whole issue I believe in woman's rights - I do not believe "a woman’s right to chose(as in abortion - don’t be funny)" should be one of them, not in the way it is written now.

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I can sympathize with your frustration…and if the shoe was on the other foot, and men carried children, I would also feel left out/over looked if the man I got pregnant (wow…that is a really odd statement) chose to abort our baby without even discussing the issue with me and because I had no legal recourse. As much as I would hate it, the right for my man to do what he sees fit with his own body would be paramount. Personal individual freedom is very important, and to take that basic freedom away would be a huge injustice
- I hate to be accusatory, but how different would your tune if this was not hypothetical? It's easy for woman to just sit back and say this, but I do not believe it would be said if the foot was on the other foot. Now this is not the only reason but it is a big part of it but should be left out - Woman like the power and who would want to relinquish power.

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In regards to the right for women to choose, the law must remain simple. In this country, complexity is often tantamount to the reduction of certain rights or a restriction on those rights.
so again for the sake of ones rights its ok to stand on another’s? In a sense (to me any way) what you are saying is to get the best possible rights for woman, its ok to take them away from men.
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LoriCiani
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"Effective against all things... except wood!"
Here's another scenario. The woman has had a very long, painfull and complicated first labour with post natal depression. A nightmare that she feels she can't go through for some time down the road. There is a complication with her contraception, it causes her to have additional and heavy bleeds. she, through a mistake in the break between one contraception and the other becomes pregnant again. She is horrified and with her husbands blessing goes to ask for an abortion. Instead this woman is put through "counselling" and given a scan so that she will see the foetus inside. In other words pressure is put upon her NOT to have an abortion.

Before you say that this wouldn't happen, it did and it happened to me. He weighed 11lbs at birth!
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24thcenstfan
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Dandandat
Sep 14 2003, 06:31 PM
Is not a child of there body? and when you say no or it doesn’t matter ... Then why most a man take care of the child after it is born? I really see this a double standard


Yes, a child is of a man’s body (legally and genetically)…a fetus is not (legally). I don’t think this a double standard. A child and a fetus are at two different developmental stages. This country does not recognize the rights of a fetus…but it does a child. That is why legally, a man has a parental obligation toward a child and not a fetus.

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what first I never said you would condone the holocaust, that’s why I used it as an example.

Sorry...my mistake. :blush:

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But im sorry you cant pick and chose when it is appropriate and when it is not appropriate to stand one someone’s rights. Its ether ok or its not ok (and of cores its not ok, then as well as now)  While the to issues may be different in severalty they are not different in meaning.

But your comparison to the Holocaust is not equal and they are different in meaning. A fetus and an individual that has been born are two separate entities. One should have been afforded rights (those that died in the Holocaust), and another should not and currently is not (a fetus).

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well  :D  now that’s the whole issue I believe in woman's rights - I do not believe "a woman’s right to chose(as in abortion - don’t be funny)" should be one of them, not in the way it is written now.

Well, it would seem that you are trying to have your cake and eat it too. You want women to have rights, but only those that you deem appropriate (i.e. everything else but the right to choose)? :whistle:

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I hate to be accusatory, but how different would your tune if this was not hypothetical? It's easy for woman to just sit back and say this, but I do not believe it would be said if the foot was on the other foot. Now this is not the only reason but it is a big part of it but should be left out - Woman like the power and who would want to relinquish power.

I would still be whistling the same tune if this were not a hypothetical. Lets be truthful here…women aren’t the only ones who love power. A man would react in the same way if the government or a woman tried to restrict or prohibit what he could and could not do with his own body. :yes:

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so again for the sake of ones rights its ok to stand on another’s? In a sense (to me any way) what you are saying is to get the best possible rights for woman, its ok to take them away from men.

No, it is not ok to step on other people’s rights. However, you are still operating on the assumption that a woman’s rights are predicated on a man’s rights. If a woman has an abortion she is not taking away from the rights of the father, because he has no legal claim over the fetus to begin with. Besides, I thought the days of men owning women and having complete domain over a woman's body were over? At least that is what the word on the street is. ;) :whistle:
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
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Well, it would seem that you are trying to have your cake and eat it too. You want women to have rights, but only those that you deem appropriate (i.e. everything else but the right to choose)?
- No I am not, I’m saying the "right to chose to keep/not keep a baby/fetus" should not be 100% a woman’s right.

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Yes, a child is of a man’s body (legally and genetically)…a fetus is not (legally).
- I’m trying to speak right and wrong not legal. Prove to me how a fetus is not part of a man yet a baby is. We are not chickens.

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women aren’t the only ones who love power. A man would react in the same way if the government or a woman tried to restrict or prohibit what he could and could not do with his own body.
My point exactly a man would act the same way. It doesn’t make it right.

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If a woman has an abortion she is not taking away from the rights of the father, because he has no legal claim over the fetus to begin with
- again this is not about legality (it was legal for blacks and whites to be segregated at one point in time - it doesn’t make it right). So from that stand point explain to me why a father has no right over a fetus - which is part of him (there is no other way to have a fetus, no a days anyway). So in reality if not legality a woman can take a child away from a man with out compromise.

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Besides, I thought the days of men owning women and having complete domain over a woman's body were over?
- See this is where I didn’t want to go with this discussion. If you believe that I am trying to gain ownership and complete domain over a woman’s body you do not understand what I am asking. I am asking why doesn’t a father have rights when it comes to his child/fetus.





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Minuet
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LoriCiani
Sep 14 2003, 08:11 PM
Here's another scenario. The woman has had a very long, painfull and complicated first labour with post natal depression. A nightmare that she feels she can't go through for some time down the road. There is a complication with her contraception, it causes her to have additional and heavy bleeds. she, through a mistake in the break between one contraception and the other becomes pregnant again. She is horrified and with her husbands blessing goes to ask for an abortion. Instead this woman is put through "counselling" and given a scan so that she will see the foetus inside. In other words pressure is put upon her NOT to have an abortion.

Before you say that this wouldn't happen, it did and it happened to me. He weighed 11lbs at birth!

You left us hanging with one important question. Are you happy now that you had the child, or would you have been happier to abort?

I suspect that you are glad now. I never suffered PPD, but my cousin did and I know it's effects. In your case I believe that they were right to make you take a long look at what you were doing instead of letting the PPD make your decision for you.

I hope with an 11 pounder they gave you a C section! :whistle:
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Swidden
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"24thcenstfan @ Posted: Sep 14 2003
05:59 AM"
I know men have a hard time understanding this, but a woman has the right to choose because it is her body (not just extra power over it) and the fetus (without legal rights) is in/a part of her body (regardless of it being the product of a man’s sperm and woman’s egg).


At what point does a man get any say in the matter. As I indicated in my earlier post. Even in circumstances where both adults consent to not hold one or the other responsible for a child that might follow from a romantic encounter, if a woman becomes pregnant and opts to carry to term, if she then goes to court seeking child support, the man will still be on the hook in most instances (I have not heard of any instance yet where such an agreement has been upheld). Again, bear in mind that I am saying that both conset to have sex, but also agree not to hold the other responsible for any possible pregnancy, if she changes her mind, it does not matter what the man agreed to in the first place.

This is an area where equality is still a way off yet. Note, also, that I am aware of the "possesion is 9/10's of the law."
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doctortobe
Speak softly, and carry a 57 megaton stick!
To answer the statement about the counseling, I also think it should be required because research is starting to show that abortion may carry long term health risks for the mother. Is it truely a right to choose if you don't hear both sides of the story? Here are some of the risks associated with getting an abortion.

1.DEATH
2.BREAST CANCER
3.CERVICAL, OVARIAN, AND LIVER CANCER
4.UTERINE PERFORATION
5.CERVICAL LACERATIONS
6.PLACENTA PREVIA
7.HANDICAPPED NEWBORNS IN LATER PREGNANCIES
8.ECTOPIC PREGNANCY
9.PELVIC INFLAMMATORY DISEASE
10.ENDOMETRITIS

I hope that clinics give out this information because any time you have surgery you are risking your life.

My belief is that once a woman has consented to have sex she has exercised the right to choose. If a baby is formed from that union then that is the consequence. Only if that baby threatens the life of the mother should abortion be considered. Otherwise it is just another form of birth control.

You know what really gets me? It's that this right to choose allows women to not only choose their actions (sans rape), but they also get to choose the consequences of their actions. Most people would kill to have a right like that. The fact that it is their bodies does not overlook the fact that they made the choice (if they indeed did) to get pregnant in the first place. And in case anybody is thinking of accusing me of being so, my views are not sexist they are life.
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24thcenstfan
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Dandandat
Sep 14 2003, 10:00 PM
No I am not, I’m saying the "right to chose to keep/not keep a baby/fetus"  should not be 100% a woman’s right.


I believe the right of the mother to choose is 100% in her purview, and you believe otherwise. It looks like we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point.

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I’m trying to speak right and wrong not legal.

What is right and what is wrong, is highly subjective. So, it would be impossible for me to say what is or isn’t right about the pre-abortion decision-making process and whether or not she included the father in that decision making process. Because right and wrong is so highly subjective, it has to be an individual preference and best judged on a case-by-case basis by those involved.

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Prove to me how a fetus is not part of a man yet a baby is. We are not chickens.

Dan, here is another point that we are never going to agree on. You place emphases on the fetus being a genetic and legal extension of the man. I do not. I place emphases solely on the legal extension (or lack of) aspect of the fetus.

Well, since you refuse to accept my legal rational (which I think is perfectly acceptable)…how about this. IMO, the father’s sperm is tantamount to a DNA gift. If a man gives a woman this gift, she has the option of looking it over and deciding if she wants to keep it or give it away. If she keeps it, then one day, both the man and woman have the honor of basking in its glory. If she decides to reject his gift, she can either get rid of it (abort), or hold on to it for a while and then give the gift back to the father or to someone else (adopt out).

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My point exactly a man would act the same way. It doesn’t make it right.

Yes, it does make it right. The power that an individual has over his or her own body is the only true power we have in this world. IMHO, it is a ridiculous notion that a man or a woman would want to or have to give that power up to the government or another individual.

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again this is not about legality (it was legal for blacks and whites to be segregated at one point in time - it doesn’t make it right). So from that stand point explain to me why a father has no right over a fetus - which is part of him (there is no other way to have a fetus, no a days anyway).

Again, right and wrong is subjective. It is your view that it is wrong for the father to be excluded from the pre-abortion decision-making process. Right now, many in society feel differently and the law states differently. If the majority of society and the laws change, then so be it. I will use my right of free speech/protest to oppose the law until it is changed back.

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So in reality if not legality a woman can take a child away from a man with out compromise.

Yes. A woman can be the sole decision maker in regards to the fetus (it is up to her to decide what is right and what is wrong for her particular situation). A child, which has already been born, is a different story.

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See this is where I didn’t want to go with this discussion. If you believe that I am trying to gain ownership and  complete domain over a woman’s body you do not understand what I am asking.

No, I do not believe you are trying to gain ownership or complete domain over a woman’s body. You are just trying to gain some domain over a woman’s body. That is unacceptable to me.

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I am asking why doesn’t a father have rights when it comes to his child/fetus.

I think I have already answered this question. A father does have rights in regards to his child…not the fetus. I am interpreting your word “rights” in the legal sense, not in your personal version of what is right and what is wrong. As I stated earlier, it is impossible to determine what is right and what is wrong (in the way that you are interpreting it) for anyone else but myself.
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24thcenstfan
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Swidden
Sep 14 2003, 10:36 PM
At what point does a man get any say in the matter.

When the baby is born.

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As I indicated in my earlier post. Even in circumstances where both adults consent to not hold one or the other responsible for a child that might follow from a romantic encounter, if a woman becomes pregnant and opts to carry to term, if she then goes to court seeking child support, the man will still be on the hook in most instances (I have not heard of any instance yet where such an agreement has been upheld). Again, bear in mind that I am saying that both conset to have sex, but also agree not to hold the other responsible for any possible pregnancy, if she changes her mind, it does not matter what the man agreed to in the  first place.

I will repeat what I said to Dan. IMO, the father’s sperm is tantamount to a DNA gift. If a man gives a woman this gift, she has the option of looking it over and deciding if she wants to keep it or give it away. If she keeps it, then one day, both the man and woman have the honor of basking in its glory. If she decides to reject his gift, she can either get rid of it (abort), or hold on to it for a while and then give the gift back to the father or to someone else (adopt out).

Sperm is a gift with consequences…a prior agreement letting the man off the hook on a type of gift that is not legislated, is the same as a minor entering into a contract without parental consent. Neither are enforceable in a court of law. In other words, if the man willingly enters into this type of agreement, knowing the law as it is…he is foolish!
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
24thcenstfan - You are describing a system where a woman reaps all the benefits of the situation while a man reaps only responsibly and I can no accept that - the law is wrong.
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24thcenstfan
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Dandandat
Sep 15 2003, 09:30 PM
24thcenstfan - You are describing a system where a woman reaps all the benefits of the situation while a man reaps only responsibly and I can no accept that - the law is wrong.

Well, Dandandat…it would appear that we are now at an impasse. I wish you luck in either coming to terms with the current law, or in your First Amendment endeavors to protest against the law. :yes:
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Ok 24thcenstfan you win we will put it to rest

But thank you for your support in my First Amendment endeavors to protest against the law.

But in actually the law means little to me - I have my family, and a wife that thinks the way I do, so fortunate for me I will not find my self on the wrong side of this wrong law. :whistle: :angel:
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24thcenstfan
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Dandandat
Sep 15 2003, 10:28 PM
...this wrong law. :whistle:  :angel:

So, dandandat…is it true that the pollution in NYC is so bad that it has been known on occasion to make a man suffer from extreme confusion? :blink: :whistle: :angel:
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
24thcenstfan - there is one law that I know is true no mater if its right wrong or in between - and that is, that a woman is always right ... and there is no reason to even argue with one. You may thank my wife for teaching me this subtle yet important law. :angel: :P B)
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