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The Turbulence Underneath
Topic Started: Dec 11 2008, 10:02 PM (572 Views)
Franko
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Greek protests spread with arrests across Europe Source



Anger over the fatal shooting of a Greek schoolboy by a policeman has spread across Europe with protests as far afield as Moscow and Madrid.

Demonstrations against the killing were seen in cities across the continent with left-wing radicals and other sympathisers taking to the streets.

In Spain, 11 protesters were arrested and several police officers injured when clashes took place in Madrid and Barcelona.

In Copenhagen, 32 people were arrested when their protest in support of the Greek protests turned violent.

In neighbouring Turkey, about a dozen left-wing protesters daubed red paint over the front of the Greek consulate in Istanbul.

Around 150 people belonging to a Danish underground movement took to the streets, throwing bottles and paint bombs at buildings, police cars and officers. In Moscow and Rome, protesters threw petrol bombs at Greece's embassies.


Journalists came under attack for the first time in the riots, with a Russian news crew assaulted by a mob of about 50 youths, some of them reportedly drunk.

A correspondent and a cameraman for Russian television channel NTV were injured in the confrontation, which happened while they filmed clashes in Exarchia, a crucible of student radicalism.

In Athens, around 40 youths threw stones at riot police near university buildings in the volatile Exarchia district where 15-year-old Alexis Grigoropoulos was shot dead on Saturday.

They were met with volleys of tear gas and three arrests were made, police said. Overnight, students hurling petrol bombs and stones again battled riot police in Athens, in a continuation of the worst riots to have hit Greece in more than 30 years.

There were similar clashes in the northern city of Thessaloniki, where more than 80 shops and 14 banks were damaged, with students continuing to occupy university campuses.

Despite the turmoil that has rocked Greece since Grigoropoulos was killed, embattled Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis said he would fly to Brussels to attend a European Union summit. His conservative government has a parliamentary majority of just one seat.

Corruption scandals and attempts at economic reform have made Mr Karamanlis' administration deeply unpopular, but he has so far resisted calls to resign and call early elections.

Epaminondas Korkoneas, 37, the police officer accused of shooting the teenager, has been charged with voluntary homicide and "illegal use" of his service weapon. He was ordered to remain in custody by an Athens magistrate.

His partner, Vassilios Saraliotis, 31, was charged with being an accomplice and will also remain in custody. The pair have been held since Sunday.

Under questioning by a magistrate, Mr Korkoneas said he had acted out of self defence when a group of youths began throwing firebombs and other objects while threatening to kill him and his partner.

His lawyer said the bullet which killed Grigoropoulos showed signs of having bounced off a hard surface, indicating that the boy was killed as a result of an accidental ricochet.

Greece has a history of clashes between the police and left-wing, anarchist groups.

A student uprising in 1973 helped bring an end to the country's military dictatorship a year later.

But the scale of this week's violence has left the country in deep shock as Greeks count the cost of the destruction.

The Athens Chamber of Commerce said 435 businesses had been hit during the violence, with 37 completely gutted, estimating the damage at GBP 44 million (50 million euros).

Under the headline "Greece in self-destruct mode" the conservative daily newspaper Kathimerini said in an editorial: "This is a country with a state that is in a shambles, a police force in disarray, mediocre universities that serve as hotbeds of rage instead of knowledge and a shattered health care system. It is also on the brink of financial ruin."





Part of the reason I'm sort of following this, is because I have a friend who grew up in Greece, lived in Turkey and France for a while, went to university in these countries, and emigrated to Canada about five years ago, to escape this kind of "environment of rage" that lurks under the surface in many European cultures.

Basically liberal by temperament, my friend is not surprised by these developments. He has even gone on to say that he's never going back, except to vacation and maybe visit his aunt and uncle.

He also says that the UK may be heading this way as well; due to a whole generation of


mediocre universities that serve as hotbeds of rage instead of knowledge


as well as the incredible corruption in all levels of government and even the justice system that is "epidemic" throughout many European countries.

"Put away this idea, Franko" he told me yesterday, "that European culture is just so enlightened, progressive, and way ahead of North America. It's been rotting for some time. Part of it started with this kooky idea that Europe could be unified under this EU thing; that somehow somehow this could lead to some future "global government".

"The only culture that I think is healthy anymore are the western ones. Canada, America, Australia, where rioting in the streets is disdained and university is for learning, not revolutionary activism."

"It's tough engaging in politics anymore in many European countries," he told me. "While Great Britain is still in good shape I have my worries. Europe is still a nice place, with lots of nice people, but our culture is being hijacked by radicalism, militant Islam, and extreme forms of ideology that could set the stage for another Hitler. In fact, that's coming. Sorry."

Interesting stuff. I've never really bought in to the "myth" of Europe, anyway. Just another reason why I think that Great Britain should stay aligned with Canada and the USA, along with our Australian buddies, of course. Economically and culturally, our journey is "evolution", not "revolution".










Edited by Franko, Dec 11 2008, 10:07 PM.
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RTW
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Why do Europeans have to leave Europe to realize that their culture is “being hijacked by radicalism, militant Islam, and extreme forms of ideology that could set the stage for another Hitler?”
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ds9074
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GB should leave the EU and set up trade agreements in the way that Norway or Switzerland have done IMO.

One of the problems in Greece is that the government there, no matter what the people vote for, is highly constrained in its policies by its membership of the EU and in particular its membership of the Euro.

I've studied the EU at degree level and the more I looked at it the more I disliked it. Its corrupt, undemocratic and remote.
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Dwayne
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^^^ Man, I've been arguing that for years. If you people wanted to make a United Europe, you'd done far better in just adopting the US Constitution wholesale, then use the courts and legislature to amend things to your liking.
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whitestar
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I think that Great Britain should stay aligned with Canada and the USA, along with our Australian buddies, of course.
We used to be closely aligned economicly but GB (Govt) turned it's back on us in the early seventies by joining the European Common Market, the UK at the time was our largest agriculture export market but dried up virtually overnight because once joining the inclusive Common Market the UK could no longer import it's agriculture from outside the CM. It was a wake up call for Aust and we adapted by finding many other export markets to replace the British but it hurt the farming sector at the time.
There was a time Australians could travel to the UK without a visa, no limit for stay, seek employment, even vote in British elections and visa versa for British entering Aust but the UK ended that too. Ties with Europe were strengthed and ours weakened.
In my case this still apllies because my parents are British and that entitles me to a British passport.
Edited by whitestar, Dec 12 2008, 08:40 AM.
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ds9074
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Dwayne
Dec 12 2008, 08:25 AM
^^^ Man, I've been arguing that for years. If you people wanted to make a United Europe, you'd done far better in just adopting the US Constitution wholesale, then use the courts and legislature to amend things to your liking.
The thing is if you put that to the people it would almost certainly be rejected. We dont want a United Europe. I think the majority of people in the UK at least were quite happy with a free trade area but never really wanted or agreed to the idea of a deep political and economic union.

Whitestar, if the UK were to leave the EU we would again be free to enter into trade negotiations (at the moment we cede that ability to the EU). So we could not only enter trade agreements with our ex-EU partners but we could look to rekindle some of our Commonwealth partnerships and even look to enter negotiations with the USA on a trade agreement.
Edited by ds9074, Dec 12 2008, 08:22 PM.
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Dwayne
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^^^ I'm just saying, if that's what they really wanted, then a reworded US Constitution is far superior to that endless piece of poop being passed off as an EU constitution.
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STC
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^^^

That, Dwayne, is one of, if not the, most patronising and nationalist posts I've read on this board.
Edited by STC, Dec 12 2008, 08:35 PM.
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whitestar
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Dwayne
Dec 12 2008, 08:25 AM
^^^ Man, I've been arguing that for years. If you people wanted to make a United Europe, you'd done far better in just adopting the US Constitution wholesale, then use the courts and legislature to amend things to your liking.
I seriously doubt that would work, the array of cultures and languages would be a significant barrier. A united nation of states needs at least a common language and strong cultural ties as an adhesive to bond the nation together.. even then it can fall apart as the American Civil War has shown, the British Union is a fragile bond and could easily disintergrate into three soverign nations despite a common language but that was forced upon the Welsh and Scottish.
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RTW
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STC
Dec 12 2008, 08:33 PM
^^^

That, Dwayne, is one of, if not the, most patronising and nationalist posts I've read on this board.
Alright Dwayne! Way to set the standard!

:clap: :woohoo: :omg:
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Dwayne
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STC
Dec 12 2008, 08:33 PM
^^^

That, Dwayne, is one of, if not the, most patronising and nationalist posts I've read on this board.
The US Constitution is very flexible in that it can adapt to what people really want, but rigid enough to not bend to the will of a simple majority. And the the US Constitution is consice, at only about 20 pages long... And that's being pretty liberal.

By comparison, the EU constitution, at 400+ pages, tried to spell EVERYTHING out, and has collapsed under its own weight. There is only one nation whose people, when given the chance to vote on it, actually voted for it, and that's Spain. Most all other EU nations simply forced it upon thier citizens. The French people aren't going for it and it looks like it's pretty unpopular with many other nations.

Far from being nationalistic, I was being realistic. And contrary to what some may believe, there is no logical argument having to do with language or culture that precludes a US style constitution. In fact, if the people who thought such things even knew a small bit of American history, then they'd know that at the time of the constitutions creation, America was a hodge podge of peoples from different European nations.

So, I'll put the US Constitution up against anything the EU has created any day of the week, and that has nothing to do with believing I or my nation is superior, but just that the EU Constitution isn't worth the paper it's written on.
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whitestar
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contrary to what some may believe, there is no logical argument having to do with language or culture that precludes a US style constitution. In fact, if the people who thought such things even knew a small bit of American history, then they'd know that at the time of the constitutions creation, America was a hodge podge of peoples from different European nations.
That's my cue, this person knows more than you give me credit.. more than aware of that, but also aware that the mayority were of Anglo decent, what you fail to mention is these minorities are assimilated into the local culture in the time frame of a small number of generations, in my case the very next generation and my children are aussie through and through.
Now that changes some if the foreign culture rivals the numbers of the local culture in certain areas, what you find there is a tendency for a lingering loyalty to the "old" country and an identification generations later to a foreign culture rather than the local.
What is the national sentiment in the US at this moment towards the rapidly growing Hispanic culture in places such as southern California and Florida?
Edited by whitestar, Dec 15 2008, 09:01 AM.
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Dwayne
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^^^ I have no problem with legal Mexican immigration.
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ds9074
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Dwayne, the original 13 colonies were British so they had that in common as a legal and cultural background for the state. They also, when fighting for their independence, had a common enemy. Finally they had, with respect, a very limited back history or roots as a independent nations.

The countries that make up the EU are a far more complex mix than those 13 colonies. Many have deep histories as nations and states going back - in some cases - thousands of years. Trying to forge it into one United States would be fraught if not impossible. It would certainly be undemocratic because that is not what people want.

And the US constitution is not such a perfect document in my eyes either. I see a country where over time more power is being accumulated by the federal government at the expense of the states. That is not something I want for the state I live in. I want it to remain independent and sovereign in its own affairs.
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Dwayne
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ds9074
Dec 13 2008, 06:05 AM
Dwayne, the original 13 colonies were British so they had that in common as a legal and cultural background for the state. They also, when fighting for their independence, had a common enemy. Finally they had, with respect, a very limited back history or roots as a independent nations.

The countries that make up the EU are a far more complex mix than those 13 colonies. Many have deep histories as nations and states going back - in some cases - thousands of years. Trying to forge it into one United States would be fraught if not impossible. It would certainly be undemocratic because that is not what people want.

And the US constitution is not such a perfect document in my eyes either. I see a country where over time more power is being accumulated by the federal government at the expense of the states. That is not something I want for the state I live in. I want it to remain independent and sovereign in its own affairs.
"Old New York, was once New Amsterdam..."

It was a Dutch colony until the British fought the Dutch, and took over what is now New York in trade for Suriname. You got the Germans who we now call the Pennsylvania Dutch. The French had enough people in the colonies to have areas of the United States where pluralities, and in some instances, even majorities, still speak French. As well, the Spanish also left their mark. So while the British unified the 13 colonies under their rule, they did so by wars and treaties, and the people of the colonies were not as universally Anglo as you seem to imply.

As for the US Constitution being perfect, why are you putting words in my mouth? Do I have to go back and quote myself??? And where have I ever said that Europeans should be forced with anything????

All that aside, I can only conclude you didn't really understand what I was saying or you simply didn't read what I was saying, because I never once concluded that the US Constitution, as written, would be perfect for Europe... "a reworded US Constitution is far superior to that endless piece of poop being passed off as an EU constitution"

And the point being here is that the US Constitution wasn't an attempt to be all things to all people as is the EU Constitution, but simply a document for running a country and the establishing for rules for amending the document. I'm not sure on what logic you're arguing otherswise, but as I've stated the Europeans could easily take the US Constitution and reword it by adding a phrase here or dropping a phrase there in order to make it more palatable for Europeans, and it would be still be far superior to what Brussels has created.

And as for your issues with the size of our federal government, the fact is MANY MANY MANY Americans believe, and rightly so in my opinion, that the current size, bredth and reach of the US federal government is, in fact, unconstitutional. The Founders never wished for such a large entity ruling over the states.

Ultimately, I think you're letting personality, namely mine, get in the way of you making a logical argument. I believe that both you and STC are on your own nationalistic bent, and in doing so cannot see the logic of my argument. In fact, I'd venture to say that you, like many other Europeans, revile most all things American as inferior, and that sir, has way more to do with your own attitudes than mine. In fact your whole "thousands of years" of nations and histories argument is a glimps into the patonizing and nationalist attitudes that permeate European histories and cultures.
Edited by Dwayne, Dec 13 2008, 11:29 AM.
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