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A Keynesian Fantasy - A Fiscal Nightmare
Topic Started: Dec 6 2008, 01:32 PM (595 Views)
whitestar
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one point of view represents many of the traits that were great about this country coming out of the great depression. The other represents many of the traits that have led to our current problems and put us on the cusp of another depression.

hey.. Americans caused America's problems.. your problems, your traits.
Your in recession and have been heading that way for years, we are not and have been booming for over a decade, even with a minumum wage for adults well above 10 bucks an hour.. our trait is simple "a fair go for all" a fair days work for a fair days pay.
I also have employees, they all receive above the award wage except for any apprentice under 18.. as I did. At that age I was the bread winner of a family of three.. worked for peanuts during the day and then worked till early hours of the morning in a transport depot, slept an average of 4hrs then back to work. I know adversity and character building.
Dwayne.. not confrontational, seems to me your highly defensive when challenged with a different view.
Edited by whitestar, Dec 7 2008, 08:39 PM.
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Franko
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Well, I think that Dwayne is just trying to be fair about this. It's difficult in a situation trying to operate a small business (since you're the one taking all of the risks and have all of the responsibilities for making it work) to make things "comfortable" for your employees. The last thing one needs in that situation is a bunch of rhetorical obligations which do not reflect the realities of the working world.

I don't really think anyone is "blaming" Dwayne here for having to lay off an employee, particularily a young guy who has many options open to him, and can also (wow) apply to get another job with a probable good job reference from his previous employer.

When I was fresh out of school, I floated around and must have worked in umpteen different job situations; I got laid off, I got fired once, I left one place to take advantage of another situation I liked better (and left my employer kind of hanging; which wasn't too cool in hindsight).

Overall, part of this economic collapse has been about everyone expecting a little too much "prosperity" right off the bat. In my town, many young people have the big glossy trucks, import sporty cars, cellphones, plasma tV's and all the rest of it, a situation usually reinforced by supplemental financing from "mommy and daddy". Let's face it. Massive amounts of young people these days are living at home, working part time, and trying to go to college or take some kind of training courses for a future career.

What blows my mind is how much time is wasted in public school, where "real-life" skills, apprenticeship, commerce, banking, how business works, are virtually ignored in favour of "social enlightenment education". If I had my way, by the time a person graduates from high school, they would have a keen understanding of the difficulties and challenges of running a business, confronting taxation, at least two different "real world" skill fundamentals, whether it be welding, construction, banking, auto repair, or even journalism, etc. Again, I've always noticed how public education at times seems to have a negative view of teaching young people about one of the most important things in life - MONEY. How to manage it, how to budget, how to even invest it, How to start a small business, and how to use the internet for career or business purposes.

I realize there may be some disagreement about this by educators, but I'm just going by my own colloquial experience with the vast number of young people I know, who are smart and even ambitious, but I'm always left asking myself "what the heck have they been learning day in day out since they started high school. Even current sex education is abysmal.

While this thread has tangented around, so what ? These problems are all part of the current economic crisis, it's all relevant.

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whitestar
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Franko
Dec 7 2008, 09:18 PM

Well, I think that Dwayne is just trying to be fair about this. It's difficult in a situation trying to operate a small business (since you're the one taking all of the risks and have all of the responsibilities for making it work) to make things "comfortable" for your employees. The last thing one needs in that situation is a bunch of rhetorical obligations which do not reflect the realities of the working world.

I don't really think anyone is "blaming" Dwayne here for having to lay off an employee, particularily a young guy who has many options open to him, and can also (wow) apply to get another job with a probable good job reference from his previous employer.

When I was fresh out of school, I floated around and must have worked in umpteen different job situations; I got laid off, I got fired once, I left one place to take advantage of another situation I liked better (and left my employer kind of hanging; which wasn't too cool in hindsight).

Overall, part of this economic collapse has been about everyone expecting a little too much "prosperity" right off the bat. In my town, many young people have the big glossy trucks, import sporty cars, cellphones, plasma tV's and all the rest of it, a situation usually reinforced by supplemental financing from "mommy and daddy". Let's face it. Massive amounts of young people these days are living at home, working part time, and trying to go to college or take some kind of training courses for a future career.

What blows my mind is how much time is wasted in public school, where "real-life" skills, apprenticeship, commerce, banking, how business works, are virtually ignored in favour of "social enlightenment education". If I had my way, by the time a person graduates from high school, they would have a keen understanding of the difficulties and challenges of running a business, confronting taxation, at least two different "real world" skill fundamentals, whether it be welding, construction, banking, auto repair, or even journalism, etc. Again, I've always noticed how public education at times seems to have a negative view of teaching young people about one of the most important things in life - MONEY. How to manage it, how to budget, how to even invest it, How to start a small business, and how to use the internet for career or business purposes.

I realize there may be some disagreement about this by educators, but I'm just going by my own colloquial experience with the vast number of young people I know, who are smart and even ambitious, but I'm always left asking myself "what the heck have they been learning day in day out since they started high school. Even current sex education is abysmal.

While this thread has tangented around, so what ? These problems are all part of the current economic crisis, it's all relevant.

Not a mention of "fair" or "unfair" regarding the young fella loosing his job... simply about an adult wage for an adult age worker.
Quote:
 
What blows my mind is how much time is wasted in public school, where "real-life" skills, apprenticeship, commerce, banking, how business works, are virtually ignored in favour of "social enlightenment education".


Done deal http://www.skillsplus.com.au/Training/Schools/SchoolBasedNewApprenticeships/tabid/157/Default.aspx

I take on one for a two year period, at no cost to me
Edited by whitestar, Dec 7 2008, 10:45 PM.
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fireh8er
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Franko
Dec 7 2008, 09:18 PM

Well, I think that Dwayne is just trying to be fair about this. It's difficult in a situation trying to operate a small business (since you're the one taking all of the risks and have all of the responsibilities for making it work) to make things "comfortable" for your employees. The last thing one needs in that situation is a bunch of rhetorical obligations which do not reflect the realities of the working world.

I don't really think anyone is "blaming" Dwayne here for having to lay off an employee, particularily a young guy who has many options open to him, and can also (wow) apply to get another job with a probable good job reference from his previous employer.

When I was fresh out of school, I floated around and must have worked in umpteen different job situations; I got laid off, I got fired once, I left one place to take advantage of another situation I liked better (and left my employer kind of hanging; which wasn't too cool in hindsight).

Overall, part of this economic collapse has been about everyone expecting a little too much "prosperity" right off the bat. In my town, many young people have the big glossy trucks, import sporty cars, cellphones, plasma tV's and all the rest of it, a situation usually reinforced by supplemental financing from "mommy and daddy". Let's face it. Massive amounts of young people these days are living at home, working part time, and trying to go to college or take some kind of training courses for a future career.

What blows my mind is how much time is wasted in public school, where "real-life" skills, apprenticeship, commerce, banking, how business works, are virtually ignored in favour of "social enlightenment education". If I had my way, by the time a person graduates from high school, they would have a keen understanding of the difficulties and challenges of running a business, confronting taxation, at least two different "real world" skill fundamentals, whether it be welding, construction, banking, auto repair, or even journalism, etc. Again, I've always noticed how public education at times seems to have a negative view of teaching young people about one of the most important things in life - MONEY. How to manage it, how to budget, how to even invest it, How to start a small business, and how to use the internet for career or business purposes.

I realize there may be some disagreement about this by educators, but I'm just going by my own colloquial experience with the vast number of young people I know, who are smart and even ambitious, but I'm always left asking myself "what the heck have they been learning day in day out since they started high school. Even current sex education is abysmal.

While this thread has tangented around, so what ? These problems are all part of the current economic crisis, it's all relevant.

Amen.
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RTW
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Franko
Dec 7 2008, 09:18 PM
The last thing one needs in that situation is a bunch of rhetorical obligations which do not reflect the realities of the working world.

What blows my mind is how much time is wasted in public school, where "real-life" skills, apprenticeship, commerce, banking, how business works, are virtually ignored in favour of "social enlightenment education".

I realize there may be some disagreement about this by educators...
Amen.

Double Amen.

Not all educators will disagree, but the majority probably would. One theory is that educated, self-sufficient graduates are more likely to make it on their own. More likely to be tax payers, not tax takers. More like to vote for smaller government and more trade schools. Less likely to favor continued support of failed polices in an inefficient system. Not educating kids insures the status-quo.
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RTW
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whitestar
Dec 7 2008, 10:40 PM
Not a mention of "fair" or "unfair" regarding the young fella loosing his job... simply about an adult wage for an adult age worker.

Done deal http://www.skillsplus.com.au/Training/Schools/SchoolBasedNewApprenticeships/tabid/157/Default.aspx

I take on one for a two year period, at no cost to me
So a "non-adult" wage for a 19 year old worker is not unfair. Glad we agree. Funny, I thought for sure there was some issue there. :headscratch:

Whitestar, front the substance of your posts it is not always apparent that you realize that you live in Australia and Dwayne lives in the USA. There are different problems and different solutions available. In one you post you say, "your problem, your traits", and then in the next you post, "done deal" and offer an Australian solution to an American problem.

Yes, the current recession has been heading our way since the late 1970s: link.

It was put on the fast track in the 1990s: link.

We were warned about it in 2001 and 2003: link.

We had hearings about it in 2004: link.

I'm glad to hear that Australia is booming and not having a recession. Would you mind taking on the role of "Leader of the Free World" until we're back on our feet? There are a slew of genocides in Africa that could use tending to, and keep a close eye on those rascals in Iran! Thanks!
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
The last time I was of the adult age of 19 I was making around the adult wage of $10 an hour, working as an electrical technician and a circuit city ware house associate. It in fact was a welcomed increase from the child wage I was making the preceding years as a day care teacher which was $7 and hour; and it was around the same amount all my 19 year old pears where making in there jobs.

That being said I would have to imagine my "cost of living" doe to the area in which I live is higher than in Dwayne's neck of the woods, all the better for his employee.

What exactly is an "adult wage" anyway? I've heard of the concept of a "fair wage" before, but this is the first time I'm hearing of the idea of an "adult wage". What constitutes the increase in wage from childhood to adulthood? I assume we are talking about an individual who does not increase his skill set between the child/adulthood threshold but simply deserves more money because he has passed this societal accepted age of adulthood.

That seems rather odd to me; that an individual is deserving of more money based only on age.

I was at a fast food joint this week end and behind the counter was a guy in his late 20s and a kid who was around 15/16. They where both doing the same job; but your telling me that the kid needs to accept a lower wage for the same job just because he hasn’t reached the societal accepted age of adulthood?

Now I don’t know as I only observed these individuals for a short while; but imagine if the kid was a better worker than the adult? What if the kid came in on time all the time, was always cleaning up the back because he thought it the right thing to do even if he isn't asked and ect; while the adult just did as little as possible just to get by all the time. Is your contention still that the adult is deserving of more money than the kid simply because of age?

No this idea of an "adult wage" doesn’t seem very practical nor does it seem "fair". It seems much more practical to place a wage scale on a particular job and pay employees in that job according to that scale regardless of their age.

By virtue of experience adults should have garnished more work experience and/or a higher skill set over the ages that separate them from a child; and that would be the proper and fair delineation between wages of a child and an adult. The more work experience and/or higher skill set you have is what determines what job you can get, which in turn will carry its own wage scale.

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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Intrepid2002
Dec 7 2008, 04:50 PM
As for direction you gave him, he being layed off may have been the best thing you have done for him. It will make him realize that a college education may be the best way to avoid working for $10 an hour. In some sense, by you being his "bread and water" he is at your mercy. With one fell swoop, as a small business owner you do have the choice of whether you keep him or not and to lay him off based on "an expectation" of tax increases (not an actual one as of yet) is a scary proposition.
That's true of any and all jobs; aside from self employment, and truthful I could make the argument its true even than.

I make a lot more that $10 but I am still at the mercy (by your definition) of my employer; who could lay me off or fire me at any given time.

I really don't see the point in make the $10 an hour an issue in this instance. While yes there comes a point where one becomes wealthy enough never to have to work again if their current income is stripped from them by loss of work. But most people do not fit into this category.
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whitestar
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So a "non-adult" wage for a 19 year old worker is not unfair. Glad we agree. Funny, I thought for sure there was some issue there.
you get that impression from what?
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Whitestar, from the substance of your posts it is not always apparent that you realize that you live in Australia and Dwayne lives in the USA. There are different problems and different solutions available.
Very good point, we seem so similar but then sooo far apart it amazes me, we are of different cultures and I need to remind myself more often.
Quote:
 
In one you post you say, "your problem, your traits", and then in the next you post, "done deal" and offer an Australian solution to an American problem.
I wasn't offering a solution, simply pointing out that here we have acknowledged the problem Franko had alluded to and making steps to rectify that deficiency.
Quote:
 
I'm glad to hear that Australia is booming and not having a recession. Would you mind taking on the role of "Leader of the Free World" until we're back on our feet? There are a slew of genocides in Africa that could use tending to, and keep a close eye on those rascals in Iran! Thanks!
small missunderstanding there, the "booming" is over post financial meltdown, less takers for our exports, less credit available, business and consumer confidence shot to pieces, we are flat out trying to avoid recession, "so far, so good" the man said as he fell of the building.
I'm gonna upset you all here "leader of the free world" gets my goat, I know it's a generally accepted phrase and for good reason especially during the cold war years but in this day and age I resent it, "leading free world nation" would be closer to the reality and you lead us all off the edge of a cliff. Why do your posts often turn to sarcasm RTW?
Edited by whitestar, Dec 8 2008, 10:35 AM.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
whitestar
Dec 8 2008, 10:29 AM
I'm gonna upset you all here "leader of the free world" gets my goat, I know it's a generally accepted phrase and for good reason especially during the cold war years but in this day and age I resent it, "leading free world nation" would be closer to the reality and you lead us all off the edge of a cliff. Why do your posts often turn to sarcasm RTW?
I understand why it gets your goat to hear the phrase "leader of the free world"; it would get mine too. In fact it does get my goat, since I dislike the idea of America always being look at in this manner for ill or good.

But what I don’t understand is that in one breath you state your displeasure in the idea that the US is the leader of the free world, but than in the next you blame us for leading you off a cliff. It can't be both; we can't 'not' be the leaders of the free world while at the same time lead the free world off a cliff. That is simply paradoxical.

It would seem to me the problem is that people want an easy target to blame when things go wrong, yet don’t want to give perpetuity when things are going well. That’s what gets my goat about being the "leader of the free world.

Sure fine the US is the "leading free world nation"; so why the hell didn’t the other nations who help lead the free world do anything about it while we where heading for that cliff you speak of? Why did they simply follow us over it?
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Dwayne
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Apparently congress will give the auto-makers a bailout

I predict they'll fail anyway, because the underlying problem has not been addressed.
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whitestar
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But what I don’t understand is that in one breath you state your displeasure in the idea that the US is the leader of the free world, but than in the next you blame us for leading you off a cliff. It can't be both; we can't 'not' be the leaders of the free world while at the same time lead the free world off a cliff. That is simply paradoxical.
yea, I agree Dan, I was giving RTW a taste of sarcasm.
The reality is, the US sneezes the rest of us get a cold. I don't know exactly why other than the obvious your economy is the largest in the world.. you are a small percentage of our export markets but we do rely on many countries and they seem to rely on you, so you go off a cliff, we go off a cliff. Though our previously strong economy has afforded us a parachute and we will land much softer than most if not all other nations and it may seem arrogant but RTW's suggestion of us taking the reigns has some merit.. you could learn some about "adult" and "fair" wage and still have high employment, low inflation and a growing economy
Quote:
 
was at a fast food joint this week end and behind the counter was a guy in his late 20s and a kid who was around 15/16. They where both doing the same job; but your telling me that the kid needs to accept a lower wage for the same job just because he hasn’t reached the societal accepted age of adulthood?
I believe the logic is based on responsibilty and experience, the lack there of in the 16yr old compared to an adult. An adult would likely have responsibilties to bear and experience of the grind of working for a living, would therefore be a more likely employee when it comes to attendance and attitude. The lower wage would offset that perceived advantage giving the young generation a starting point in the workforce, the gaining of experience as opposed to monetary reward can be just as valuable.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
whitestar
Dec 8 2008, 11:36 AM
I believe the logic is based on responsibilty and experience, the lack there of in the 16yr old compared to an adult. An adult would likely have responsibilties to bear and experience of the grind of working for a living, would therefore be a more likely employee when it comes to attendance and attitude. The lower wage would offset that perceived advantage giving the young generation a starting point in the workforce, the gaining of experience as opposed to monetary reward can be just as valuable.
But would it not be simply to base wage of experience and performance, rather than age. That way you don't have to assume that with age comes better performance and experience. Both performance and experience are easy to measure in an employ; there is no need to use a third measure (age) to approximate the previous two. Age than becomes meaningless.

Also; assuming that with age comes experience; than one must also assume that an adult ought not to be in the same position as a child; because their experience should afford them a better position. There fore it is no off to assume that the adult working behind the counter at a fast food joint, either doesn’t have experience or performs badly; other wise he would have a better job than the child. There for the reasons to give him a better wage are no longer true.
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RTW
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whitestar
Dec 8 2008, 11:36 AM
I agree Dan, I was giving RTW a taste of sarcasm.
Huh. Thanks for pointing that out.


whitestar
Dec 8 2008, 11:36 AM
The reality is, the US sneezes the rest of us get a cold. I don't know exactly why other than the obvious your economy is the largest in the world.... you could learn some about "adult" and "fair" wage and still have high employment, low inflation and a growing economy
While there's always room for improvement, apparently, from your first two statements, we were doing fine for quite a while.


whitestar
Dec 8 2008, 11:36 AM
I believe the logic is based on responsibilty and experience, the lack there of in the 16yr old compared to an adult. An adult would likely have responsibilties to bear and experience of the grind of working for a living, would therefore be a more likely employee when it comes to attendance and attitude.
Ideally, sure. Realistically? Those responsibilities often don't come until one reaches his mid 30s or even 40s.

A guy in his mid-20s working side by side with a 15/16 year old in a minimum wage job? As Dan pointed out, THAT in itself tells us something about the guy. I suppose he could have just lost his job on Wall Street and is too proud to accept unemployment.


whitestar
Dec 8 2008, 11:36 AM
...the gaining of experience as opposed to monetary reward can be just as valuable.
Perhaps that how teens down under think but try convincing an American teen of that.
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whitestar
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But would it not be simply to base wage of experience and performance, rather than age. That way you don't have to assume that with age comes better performance and experience. Both performance and experience are easy to measure in an employ; there is no need to use a third measure (age) to approximate the previous two. Age than becomes meaningless
From experience as an employer I can state that in general the adult is a safer bet to employ when it comes to attendance and attitude to work. In the case of two adults I will choose the family man for the same reason. They are firmly entrenched in the rat race and have good incentive to get outta of bed at 5am and stick around for overtime when needed and do it daily, weekly, year in year out. In other words they are in general more reliable.
Quote:
 
Also; assuming that with age comes experience; than one must also assume that an adult ought not to be in the same position as a child; because their experience should afford them a better position. There fore it is no off to assume that the adult working behind the counter at a fast food joint, either doesn’t have experience or performs badly; other wise he would have a better job than the child. There for the reasons to give him a better wage are no longer true.
Maybe, maybe not.. could be a multitude of reasons.. a burnt out General Manager may enjoy the relative freedom from a more responsibile laden job, someone maybe looking for part-time work as well as their main employment, an injured construction worker looking for a new path of employment, on and on.
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