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| Pending Coup In Canada | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 1 2008, 08:57 PM (1,006 Views) | |
| Minuet | Dec 3 2008, 03:31 PM Post #31 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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I have only one thing to say to you. I am sick and tired of you calling people "childish" when your so called logic does not sway them to your point of view. I made my point about the differences in our cultures quite nicely and without being insulting. If you cannot have a logic based argument without being insulting then go to hell because I no longer wish to engage you in this discussion. Edited by Minuet, Dec 3 2008, 04:05 PM.
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| Wichita | Dec 3 2008, 04:26 PM Post #32 |
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The Adminstrator wRench
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Moderator Comment: I came into this thread with the intent of responding to a "report a post". Unfortunately, the person who made the report declined to wait unitl the next time someone was online who could respond to the post and took matters into her own hands. Minuet, I will not respond to the matter that you requested in the manner that you requested because of this comment:
You don't get to tell people whether or not they get to participate in discussions or not. If you don't wish to discuss an issue with a particular individual, then the simple response is for YOU to exit the conversation. Edited by Wichita, Dec 3 2008, 04:27 PM.
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| Minuet | Dec 3 2008, 05:02 PM Post #33 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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Wichita - I did not tell anyone that they could not participate. I very clearly told them that I would not engage them in discussion. I said nothing about them continuing to discuss with others. I have no idea how you got that message from what I wrote because the words to support that interpretation simply are not there. So I would ask you to reread what I wrote and make your response based on what I actually said. The report was based on a personal insult. I made no such insults here. I simply told someone where to go because I was fed up. Thank you. Edit - also for clarification - I made the post before I made the report. I thought about the words after I had already replied and decided that I should report them. So it was a bit late to take back the post at that time. Edited by Minuet, Dec 3 2008, 05:08 PM.
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| Wichita | Dec 3 2008, 06:33 PM Post #34 |
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The Adminstrator wRench
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I would like to apologize to Dandandat for accidentally deleting his post when I deleted the "report" about the post. He was kind enough to forward the post in it's entirety and I wanted to return it to the thread as it belongs. Again, my apologies for having made this mistake. It was not a deliberate action on my part.
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| Minuet | Dec 3 2008, 06:57 PM Post #35 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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^^^ It was also quoted in my post |
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| Ngagh | Dec 3 2008, 11:46 PM Post #36 |
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Huh?
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Franko, I am surprised you would use the term "pending coup" in the context of what is happening right now. A coup d’état, often simply called a coup, is the sudden unconstitutional overthrow of a government by a part — usually small — of the state establishment — usually the military — to replace the branch of the stricken government, either with another civil government or with a military government. Franko, this is not a coup, but I suspect you know that. I keep hearing many misconceptions from people and the media regarding this situation. I wish to clear up as many of these misconceptions as possible. I’m Canadian, have a strong interest in politics and have taken many Canadian political classes in university. With this said, I am by no means an expert, as such, I will do my best to explain this situation. If I need to be corrected or I forgot something, please do not hesitate to make a reply. Let's get some basics down:
Now, I have yet to read all the responses to this thread, so perhaps this issue has been addressed, but allow me to clarify this properly. This is in no way a coup. It is not just illegal but impossible for the Conservatives to govern if they have lost the confidence of the house. The only thing that Harper can do is prorogue the parliament. The last time this was tried, someone lost his head. I think I need to ask King Charles what happened. Sometimes I wonder if Stephen Harper has Karl Rove on speed dial the way he has his base frothing at the mouth. Note the keywords "separatist", "undemocratic", "socialist" spewing forth in every comment and press release. What gets me the most is the word, "undemocratic". The proposed coalition has a much larger percentage of the popular vote as well as a much larger seat count than do the Conservatives. If Canadian democracy isn't about the popular vote, and it isn't about seats in the House, then according to Harper it must mean solely him in control. Perhaps he thinks that vilifying the Bloc as evil, treasonous, dirty separatists will do the trick, and Canadians will lose support for the coalition. I think Harper is doing irreparable damage to this nation. He's pissing off all the Quebecois who gainfully voted for the Conservatives and providing fuel to the real separatists-English Canada does not respect or care about French Canada. It is interesting to note that the only thing that is really unprecedented in this situation would be to prorogue government for the purpose of avoiding a confidence vote. That itself is unconstitutional, as it would go against the principle of responsible government because the government cannot be held accountable. For all those interested Constitution Act, 1867 Edited for format and brevity Edited by Ngagh, Dec 4 2008, 08:12 AM.
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| ds9074 | Dec 4 2008, 04:28 AM Post #37 |
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Admiral
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^^^ When has a coaltion previously taken power by a no confidence vote in the existing government and then not submitted itself to an immediate general election? Edited by ds9074, Dec 4 2008, 04:35 AM.
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| Ngagh | Dec 4 2008, 08:18 AM Post #38 |
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Huh?
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^In any Parliamentary system or Canada specifically? In Canada, the closest situation that I can remember is the King-Byng affair, where a coalition government created a government directly after an election. They subsequently lost confidence of the Common due to scandal. The GG then allowed the party with the most votes to Govern. That parliament was soon brought down by a non confidence motion as well. Clicky click It's a very interesting read. |
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| Minuet | Dec 4 2008, 08:37 AM Post #39 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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One other note of interest - I understand that when Harper tried to form a coalition to usurp the Liberals he courted the very same Bloc Quebecois that he is now villifying |
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| ds9074 | Dec 4 2008, 02:19 PM Post #40 |
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Admiral
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Interesting thanks. As I mentioned further up the thread I do not believe anything like this has happened at Westminster going back as far as 1722. From what I can see when the government has changed party it has either been the result of or has resulted in a dissolution and General Election. |
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| Dandandat | Dec 4 2008, 02:42 PM Post #41 |
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Time to put something here
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What you are missing is that when the democracy spoke in the last election, their was no such thing as the proposed coalition. You can not assume that those who voted for particular party members to represent them in government wanted the three opposition parties to create a coalition. There for you can not possible conclude that the coalition has a much larger percentage of the popular vote. The coalition in fact has no percentage of the popular vote because it did not exist at the time of the last election. Had the coalition existed at the time of the last election it is possible that they may very well have lost seats giving Harper the full majority. If what Franko says about the Bloc is true in even a degree of measure, it makes it even more likely that people would have switched their votes over being unhappy with the idea of being in a coalition with them. All you know for sure is that the people of Canada had the opportunity to remove Harper's government and they did not do so, they in fact gave them more power. Now the opposition leaders are taking it upon themselves to do what the people chose not to do. That is undemocratic. Your speculation that the coalition would have gained more seats is just that speculation. You can not possibly know if the majority of the Canadian people would have backed a coalition of the opposition. It is entirely possible that given the differences between the opposition parties that at least some supporters would not have approved of banding together. Because of this you can not possibly say the coalition has more of the popular vote. |
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| ds9074 | Dec 4 2008, 03:03 PM Post #42 |
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Admiral
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^^^ I would broadly agree with that. The Conservatives were the single most popular party and their popularity increased at the election just held. People voting for other parties voted for them presumably without the intention of them forming a coalition government. They therefore have no mandate for such a coalition government. What they do have is the power and right to bring down by confidence vote a minority government which while the most popular single party failed to secure an overall majority. They should then, if they wish to form a coalition administration, support a dissolution of Parliament. Such a dissolution would give Canadian voters a clear choice. Either they could return the Conservatives with a majority and they continue in government or the coalition would have a majority and they would form a government. Not being Canadian I have no particular preference as to the choice made. The above is what I personally believe would be the best outcome, it is what I would hope would occur in the UK in such a situation and it is what I believe Westminster system precedent would normally require. If an election doesnt occur I will be concerned as it could be used at a later date to try to justify such a move here in Britain and I would not be happy with that. What I would suggest is that the proposed tactic of proroguing Parliament seems a bad one. It is by nature a short term measure, the government will fall through lack of supply if it tries to extend the measure. Maybe there are reasons why he is trying that tactic, but if I were him I would think it better to actually bring forward a motion of confidence in the Government myself then when that is defeated request an immediate dissolution. If the Governor-General will not grant the dissolution then he has the nuclear option of directly advising the Queen to dissolve the Canadian Parliament, a request she could not deny as she must act of the advice of her Ministers. Edited by ds9074, Dec 4 2008, 03:13 PM.
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| Minuet | Dec 4 2008, 04:25 PM Post #43 |
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
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It is hypocritical of Stephen Harper to try to prorouge the vote when he himself attempted a similar coup years ago. To those who find what is happening "undemocratic" I would respond that we do have a monarchy and we have always gone through the formality. It is likely that an election will be called, but not calling an election would not be "undemocratic" as the governing coalition would control enough seats to represent a larger portion of Canadians then the current ruling party. Ngagh was correct to point out that Harper was not voted in by the Canadian public. He ran in a single riding like the rest of our members of parliament. Our system differs vastly from the US. In fact I find thier system of picking the inner cabinet that advises the President to be undemocratic because that cabinet is not elected by anyone. At least our cabinet comes from the elected ranks of parliament. Edited by Minuet, Dec 4 2008, 04:31 PM.
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| Ngagh | Dec 4 2008, 05:56 PM Post #44 |
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Huh?
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You are misinterpreting what I wrote. The people do not elect a party or its leader to power. The people elect representative to make decisions for them in the House of Commons. I was not dealing with hypotheticals, the coalition with in individual members make up a majority share of the vote in Canada, they were also elected to more seats in the house of Commons. You are dealing with hypotheticals. The situation now is that the Harper government has lost the confidence of the house. Again, you are dealing with hypotheticals. The situation now is that the Harper government has lost the confidence of the house.
The people of Canada do not elect a Prime Minister. They do not elect the leaders of their parties unless they are eligible to vote in the leaders riding. The people vote for a representative who in turn pick their leader. They choose on whatever basis they like. They choose because they believe that they will be best represented by this person. The representatives, because of strict party solidarity, choose a leader that is of their own party. As the moment, the representatives of the people have decided that they would be lead by Dion. To allow for legislation of pass, they proposed a coalition, allow them to retain the confidence of the house. I did not speculate on who would win more seats if another election were to be held today and the coalition were running against the Conservative Party. I stated that at the moment, the coalition was elected with a majority of the share of vote and they were also elected to a majority of the seats within the House of Commons, that would give them the confidence of the House. |
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| ds9074 | Dec 4 2008, 06:03 PM Post #45 |
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Admiral
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Coming from a country which does have a system like Canada I still think that for the proposed coalition to take power without then calling an election would be undemocratic. Yes individual MPs are what were elected. Yet presumably none of those MPs was elected with a mandate to give support to a coalition government. That was not something which was put before the people before the election was held. They were elected with a mandate to support a government only of their own party, the parties on whose platform, policies and manifestos they presumably stood. In order to gain a popular mandate for a coalition government those MPs need to go back to their voters and ask their permission to support such a government. The voters can then choose to back them or back the Conservatives. Edited by ds9074, Dec 4 2008, 06:05 PM.
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