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Carnage In India; Mumbai terror attacks
Topic Started: Nov 27 2008, 08:41 PM (378 Views)
Franko
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Indian forces scour Mumbai hotels after carnage



MUMBAI, India – Indian commandoes scoured two luxury hotels room-by-room for survivors and holed-up militants Friday and were in a tense standoff at a Jewish center, more than a day after a chain of attacks across Mumbai by suspected Muslim militants left at least 119 people dead.

The well-coordinated strikes by small bands of gunmen starting Wednesday night left India's financial center shell-shocked, but the sporadic gunfire and explosions at the Taj Mahal and Oberoi hotels dwindled overnight, indicating the siege might be winding down.

Security forces searched the rooms at the hotels — two of the top gathering spots for the Mumbai elite — but there were no gunbattles or blasts. Commandoes had spent much of Thursday bringing out hostages, trapped guests and corpses from the hotels in small groups while firefighters battled flames that erupted. The fires were out by Friday.

At the besieged headquarters of the ultra-orthodox Jewish outreach group Chabad Lubavitch, there were at least three blasts during the early morning hours. Militants were believed to be holed up inside the building — possibly with hostages — but the situation remained murky Friday.

Indian commandoes took positions outside, but did not appear to enter the site.

State officials said 119 people had died and 288 were injured in the attacks.

The gunmen were well-prepared, even carrying large bags of almonds to keep up their energy during the fight. Their main targets appeared to be Americans, Britons and Jews, though most of the dead seemed to be Indians and foreign tourists caught in the random gunfire.

The gunmen — some of whom strode casually through their targets in khakis and T-shirts — clearly came ready for a siege.

"They have AK-47s and grenades. They have bags full of grenades and have come fully prepared," said Maj. Gen. R.K. Hooda. Vice-Admiral J.S. Bedi, a top naval officer.

Ratan Tata, who runs the company that owns the elegant Taj Mahal, said they appeared to have scouted their targets in advance.

"They seem to know their way around the back office, the kitchen. There has been a considerable amount of detailed planning," he told a news conference.

The Maharashtra state home ministry said dozens of hostages had been freed from the Oberoi and dozens more were still trapped inside. More than 400 people were brought out of the Taj Mahal on Thursday.

Authorities said they had killed three gunmen at the Taj.

It remained unclear just how many people had been taken hostage, how many were hiding inside the hotels and how many dead still lay uncounted.


More....





I thought things were a little calm on the terror front recently. India has been having more and more tensions with Islamic extremists in recent months; including prior bombing incidents. Whatever their motives, the technique of organization to this attack is unsettling.


Quote:
 
A U.S. investigative team was heading to Mumbai, a State Department official said Thursday evening, speaking on condition of anonymity because the U.S. and Indian governments were still working out final details. The official declined to identify which agency or agencies the team members came from.

There were conflicting reports about hostages at the Jewish center. A diplomat closely monitoring the site said people were still being held there, though an Indian state official said earlier eight hostages had been released. Both sources spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the media.

On Thursday morning, a woman, child and an Indian cook were led out of the building by police, said one witness. The child was identified as Moshe Holtzberg, 2, the son of Rabbi Gavriel Noach Holtzberg, the main representative at Chabad house. The child was unharmed, but his clothes were soaked in blood.

India has been shaken repeatedly by terror attacks blamed on Muslim militants in recent years, but most of them were coordinated bombings striking random crowded places: markets, street corners, parks.

These attacks were more sophisticated — and more brazen.

They began at about 9:20 p.m. with the shooters spraying gunfire across the Chhatrapati Shivaji railroad station, one of the world's busiest terminals. For the next two hours, there was an attack roughly every 15 minutes — the Jewish center, a tourist restaurant, one hotel, then another, and two attacks on hospitals. There were 10 targets in all.

Indian media showed pictures of rubber dinghies found by the city's shoreline, apparently used by the gunmen to reach the area. Both of the luxury hotels targeted overlook the Arabian Sea, which surrounds the peninsula of Mumbai.

At the Chhatrapati Shivaji railroad station, a soaring 19th century architectural monument, gunmen fired bullets through the crowded terminal, leaving the floor spattered with blood and corpses.

"They just fired randomly at people and then ran away. In seconds, people fell to the ground," said Nasim Inam, a witness.

Analysts around the world were debating whether the gunmen could have been tied to — or inspired by — al-Qaida.

"It's clear that it is al-Qaida style," but probably not carried out by the group's militants, said Rohan Gunaratna, of the International Center for Political Violence and Terrorism Research in Singapore and author of "Inside Al-Qaida."

Gunaratna said the attacks were a "watershed" for India, "because for the first time, the terrorists deliberately attacked international targets," he said, noting that symbolic high-profile targets had been chosen, apparently to magnify the effects of the violence.

Indian media reports said a previously unknown group calling itself the Deccan Mujahideen claimed responsibility in e-mails to several media outlets. The Deccan is a region in southern India that was traditionally ruled by Muslim kings.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh blamed "external forces" for the violence — a phrase sometimes used to refer to Pakistani militants, whom Indian authorities often blame attacks on.

Survivors of the hotel attacks said the gunmen had specifically targeted Britons and Americans.

Alex Chamberlain, a British citizen dining at the Oberoi, told reporters that a gunman ushered 30 to 40 people from the restaurant into a stairway and ordered everyone to put up their hands.

The gunmen "stopped once and asked, 'Where are you from? Any British or American? Show your ID.' My friend said, 'Tell them you're Italian.' And there I was with my hands up basically thinking I was in a lot of trouble."

Chamberlain said he managed to slip away as the patrons were forced to walk upstairs.

One victim was British-Cypriot Andreas Dionysiou Liveras, 73, the owner of a luxury yacht business, said the Cypriot foreign ministry and his brother, Theophanis Liveras.

Andreas Dionysiou Liveras, who was attending a conference, had spoken to the British Broadcasting Corp. from a locked room inside the Taj Hotel before he was killed.

"As we sat at the table we heard the machine gun fire outside in the corridor. We hid under the table and then they switched all the lights off. ... All we know is the bombs are next door and the hotel is shaking every time a bomb goes off," he said.

Among the dead were at least four Australians and a Japanese, said the state home ministry. An Italian, a Briton and a German were also killed, according to their foreign ministries.

At least three top Indian police officers — including the chief of the anti-terror squad — were among those killed, said Roy.

Among those foreigners still held captive in all three buildings were Americans, British, Italians, Swedes, Canadians, Yemenis, New Zealanders, Spaniards, Turks, French, a Singaporean and Israelis.

The United States, Pakistan and other countries condemned the attacks.

The motive for the onslaught was not immediately clear, but Mumbai has frequently been targeted in terrorist attacks blamed on Islamic extremists, including a series of bombings in July 2006 that killed 187 people.

Mumbai is one of the most populated cities in the world with some 18 million crammed into shantytowns, high rises and crumbling mansions.

Relations between Hindus, who make up more than 80 percent of India's 1 billion population, and Muslims, who make up about 14 percent, have sporadically erupted into bouts of sectarian violence since British-ruled India was split into independent India and Pakistan in 1947.





Edited by Franko, Nov 27 2008, 08:43 PM.
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whitestar
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what thinking can justify this attrocity? how could this possibly further their cause?
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rowskid86
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Suck my Spock
And here I always thought the Islamic people where completely peaceful, and would never harm a soul. The Indian government should put forth steps to reduce Islamic violence in the nation. either with peace or a Iron fist.
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Minuet
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^^^ There you go again with the generalizations. SOME Muslims are peaceful, SOME participate in these atrocities.

SOME Christians don't have clean hands either.
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Wichita
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Minuet
Nov 30 2008, 12:30 AM
^^^ There you go again with the generalizations. SOME Muslims are peaceful, SOME participate in these atrocities.

SOME Christians don't have clean hands either.
Minuet,

Did you read what Rowskid said before you criticized it? Based on your response, it doesn't appear that you did.

Rowskid
 
And here I always thought the Islamic people where completely peaceful, and would never harm a soul. The Indian government should put forth steps to reduce Islamic violence in the nation. either with peace or a Iron fist.


bold mine

What he said was ..... 100% of all Islamic people are not non-violent.

Or, in other words, some Islamic people engage in violence.

So, if his comment was a "generalization" and, by definition, wrong, so was your comment because you said the same thing.

Since you agreed with what Rowskid said, your swipe at Christians seemed to be misplaced.

I assume that it was not an attempt to justify the violence at Mumbai.

As a religous minority that has been threatened with various types of physical violence and economic ruin in recent weeks, I take a dim view of attempts to justify violence.

Edited by Wichita, Nov 30 2008, 07:04 AM.
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Wichita
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Back to the topic ....

What a horrendous event. :no: :no: :no:

I can't even comprehend the event. Not knowing which way to turn to be safe. Originally, when it was said they were looking for people with US and British passports, it may have made some think they safe, but, apparently, they just got shot instead.

From what I have been able to read in all the confusing reports, there does seem to be ample stories of the hotel staffs doing some pretty heroic things to help save people. From the same sources, it seems that some of the policement were more hinderance than help.

Just so sad ...
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Minuet
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Wichita
Nov 30 2008, 06:52 AM
Minuet
Nov 30 2008, 12:30 AM
^^^ There you go again with the generalizations. SOME Muslims are peaceful, SOME participate in these atrocities.

SOME Christians don't have clean hands either.
Minuet,

Did you read what Rowskid said before you criticized it? Based on your response, it doesn't appear that you did.

Rowskid
 
And here I always thought the Islamic people where completely peaceful, and would never harm a soul. The Indian government should put forth steps to reduce Islamic violence in the nation. either with peace or a Iron fist.


bold mine

What he said was ..... 100% of all Islamic people are not non-violent.

Or, in other words, some Islamic people engage in violence.

So, if his comment was a "generalization" and, by definition, wrong, so was your comment because you said the same thing.

Since you agreed with what Rowskid said, your swipe at Christians seemed to be misplaced.

I assume that it was not an attempt to justify the violence at Mumbai.

As a religous minority that has been threatened with various types of physical violence and economic ruin in recent weeks, I take a dim view of attempts to justify violence.

I was not justifying anything.

Rowskid has a history of making broad ranging bigoted remarks against Muslims on this board. My reaction to his words was based on that history.

As a member of a group that has been targeted many times in history, including this attack in India (the Chabad house) I take a dim view of words that could be interpreted as an attempt to stir up prejudice (that could result in violence) against any broad group.

If you prefer I could ask Rowskid what he meant by his words. But I have already done that many times before. I KNOW his response will be broad ranging. This attack has nothing to do with "Muslims" being violent or non violent. It does involve extremists which in this case are Muslims. But in other countries it could involve other religions. There are even extremist Jews in Israel. I abhor extremism from any religion precisely because in some ways it end up hurting the entire group who in the end get blamed for the abhorrent actions of a few.
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Minuet
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Wichita
Nov 30 2008, 06:56 AM
Back to the topic ....

What a horrendous event. :no: :no: :no:

I can't even comprehend the event. Not knowing which way to turn to be safe. Originally, when it was said they were looking for people with US and British passports, it may have made some think they safe, but, apparently, they just got shot instead.

From what I have been able to read in all the confusing reports, there does seem to be ample stories of the hotel staffs doing some pretty heroic things to help save people. From the same sources, it seems that some of the policement were more hinderance than help.

Just so sad ...
Agreed 100%
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Wichita
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Minuet
Nov 30 2008, 08:47 AM
Wichita
Nov 30 2008, 06:52 AM
Minuet
Nov 30 2008, 12:30 AM
^^^ There you go again with the generalizations. SOME Muslims are peaceful, SOME participate in these atrocities.

SOME Christians don't have clean hands either.
Minuet,

Did you read what Rowskid said before you criticized it? Based on your response, it doesn't appear that you did.

Rowskid
 
And here I always thought the Islamic people where completely peaceful, and would never harm a soul. The Indian government should put forth steps to reduce Islamic violence in the nation. either with peace or a Iron fist.


bold mine

What he said was ..... 100% of all Islamic people are not non-violent.

Or, in other words, some Islamic people engage in violence.

So, if his comment was a "generalization" and, by definition, wrong, so was your comment because you said the same thing.

Since you agreed with what Rowskid said, your swipe at Christians seemed to be misplaced.

I assume that it was not an attempt to justify the violence at Mumbai.

As a religous minority that has been threatened with various types of physical violence and economic ruin in recent weeks, I take a dim view of attempts to justify violence.

I was not justifying anything.

Rowskid has a history of making broad ranging bigoted remarks against Muslims on this board. My reaction to his words was based on that history.

As a member of a group that has been targeted many times in history, including this attack in India (the Chabad house) I take a dim view of words that could be interpreted as an attempt to stir up prejudice (that could result in violence) against any broad group.

If you prefer I could ask Rowskid what he meant by his words. But I have already done that many times before. I KNOW his response will be broad ranging. This attack has nothing to do with "Muslims" being violent or non violent. It does involve extremists which in this case are Muslims. But in other countries it could involve other religions. There are even extremist Jews in Israel. I abhor extremism from any religion precisely because in some ways it end up hurting the entire group who in the end get blamed for the abhorrent actions of a few.
Then I would have to say your response is pretty ironic.

You stated that you "know" what Rowskid's response meant based on his past history. You didn't demonstrate that his current comment said what you claim - you didn't even attempt to do so in fact.

We weren't discussing Islam overall in this thread when he made his comment. We were discussing a specific event which reportedly was carried out by Muslim extremists.

(I say reportedly because I don't choose to automatically believe the words of someone - the terrorist captured alive - who appears to be a mass murderer.)

But - based on current reports in a specific incident - Rowskid's comment is factual.

But, you choose instead to blame him now because of your interpretation of past comments he may have made.

Is that not what has been done to your people and mine?

I confess when there are calls for our churches to be torched and the ruins to be taxed and other people publicly defend that threat as "reasonable" and "justifiable", it does make me pause.
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Minuet
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Rowskid is an individual. I am making comments about him alone - not a group of people. Nor am I claiming he represents any group of people.

So your point doesn't make sense with the circumstance.
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rowskid86
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Suck my Spock
Min what I said basically was the Islamic people in India I thought where peaceful. I never once said in this thread that they are all evil and violent.

I never really heard of much Islamic terrorism going on there and then this happened.


thanks for calling me a bigot, maybe you should reread what that word means. And thanks for trying to Insult me, really appreciate it, I really do.
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Wichita
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Minuet
Nov 30 2008, 05:02 PM
Rowskid is an individual. I am making comments about him alone - not a group of people. Nor am I claiming he represents any group of people.

So your point doesn't make sense with the circumstance.
I disagree.

If you consider a specific behavior to be inappropriate when directed toward a group, then it should also be inappropriated when directed at an individual.

Are groups not made up of individuals?
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Minuet
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rowskid86
Nov 30 2008, 05:09 PM
Min what I said basically was the Islamic people in India I thought where peaceful. I never once said in this thread that they are all evil and violent.

I never really heard of much Islamic terrorism going on there and then this happened.


thanks for calling me a bigot, maybe you should reread what that word means. And thanks for trying to Insult me, really appreciate it, I really do.
Rowskid - your comment did not specify "indian" Islamic people.

You have repeatedly on this forum made the same comment about "peaceful" Muslims. Repeated sarcastic comments do leave an impression that you feel a particular way.

That is all I have to say on this issue.
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RTW
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rowskid86
Nov 29 2008, 10:29 PM
The Indian government should put forth steps to reduce Islamic violence in the nation. either with peace or a Iron fist.
I agree, but I don't think any peaceful method will work. Does anyone question the outcome if "peaceful resistance" is employed?
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fireh8er
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Moderator Comment

I think we can all agree that this was a horrendous event.

I don't think this thread is going in a postive direction.

I'm going to temporarily closed this thread.

End of Moderator Comment
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