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Are current large American unions a good thing?; Or a bad thing?
Topic Started: Nov 17 2008, 10:55 AM (896 Views)
whitestar
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Of course their a good thing but the catch is... their also a bad thing. If not for organised labor groups we would still be under the thumb of unethical employers.. working conditions for employees would still be at 19th century standards. Business has a tendancy to be outright ruthless when dealing with costs.. wages, health and safety included. Govts would not or could not protect the workers and the result is obviously what we have today.. unions.. together we stand, divided we fall.
Now the pendulum has swung too far is the catch, too much power in the hands of too few can be a negative and usually is. Our last government virtually broke the back of the large powerful unions, bringing some balance back to the equation but they blew it when they realized the unions were vulnerable and attempted to then sweep them away completely. They themselves were swept away at the next election because the people could see where their true agenda lay and sent them packing. One step to many.
Edited by whitestar, Nov 20 2008, 12:19 AM.
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Minuet
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RTW
Nov 19 2008, 11:47 PM
fireh8er
Nov 19 2008, 05:01 PM
ds9074
Nov 19 2008, 12:50 PM
Dan have you considered that not all employers may be as good as the Japanese motor companies you keep mentioning? IF the employer does not provide things like a decent wage, safe and clean conditions etc. then a union may be necessary.
Bingo! :thmup:
Safe and clean conditions fireh8er??? Com'on! YOUR union doesn't exactly past the muster on that one! :P

Show me a union any employee that thinks he's paid enough, has enough benefits, or works in a safe enough environment. ;)

Give someone a 1000% raise and it won't take him long to come up with a list of reasons that it should have been 2000%.
Please enlighten us as to specifically what you know about Fireh8er's union. Why doesn't it pass muster on the health and safety issues?

Do you even know which union he is refering to?
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Admiralbill_gomec
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whitestar
Nov 20 2008, 12:14 AM
Of course their a good thing but the catch is... their also a bad thing. If not for organised labor groups we would still be under the thumb of unethical employers.. working conditions for employees would still be at 19th century standards.
How do you know this?
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Minuet
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^^^ No one "knows" but I would say it's a pretty safe bet.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
whitestar
Nov 20 2008, 12:14 AM
Of course their a good thing but the catch is... their also a bad thing. If not for organised labor groups we would still be under the thumb of unethical employers.. working conditions for employees would still be at 19th century standards. Business has a tendancy to be outright ruthless when dealing with costs.. wages, health and safety included. Govts would not or could not protect the workers and the result is obviously what we have today.. unions.. together we stand, divided we fall.
Now the pendulum has swung too far is the catch, too much power in the hands of too few can be a negative and usually is. Our last government virtually broke the back of the large powerful unions, bringing some balance back to the equation but they blew it when they realized the unions were vulnerable and attempted to then sweep them away completely. They themselves were swept away at the next election because the people could see where their true agenda lay and sent them packing. One step to many.
whitestar, no one is denying (or at lest I'm not) that unions where ever a good thing. They where instrumental in bringing about workers rights that we all enjoy today union member or not.

The question is have they become obsolete?
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fireh8er
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I'm Captain Kirk!
^^^
I don't think they are obsolete, but they may be in decline.
Edited by fireh8er, Nov 20 2008, 10:38 AM.
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whitestar
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Dandandat
Nov 20 2008, 09:39 AM
whitestar, no one is denying (or at lest I'm not) that unions where ever a good thing. They where instrumental in bringing about workers rights that we all enjoy today union member or not.

The question is have they become obsolete?
I don't believe so but they certainly needed to be tamed some and they have been here in Aus.
As long as there is an employer/employee relationship there will always be a role for unions.
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fireh8er
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I'm Captain Kirk!
whitestar
Nov 30 2008, 07:02 PM
Dandandat
Nov 20 2008, 09:39 AM
whitestar, no one is denying (or at lest I'm not) that unions where ever a good thing. They where instrumental in bringing about workers rights that we all enjoy today union member or not.

The question is have they become obsolete?
I don't believe so but they certainly needed to be tamed some and they have been here in Aus.
As long as there is an employer/employee relationship there will always be a role for unions.
Amen.
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RTW
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Unions account for a significant portion of the tax dollars American's have confiscated each year.

When repairing potholes on city/county roads one guy drives the truck. That's ALL he is allowed to do. He smokes a cigarette while the "asphalt technician" fills the hole.

In the private sector, the REAL world were money is earned, one man could do both jobs.



When surveying the route of the new sewer line, the county "engineers" spend as much time sitting in the truck drinking coffee and looking at maps as they do surveying. They require a couple of trips to the site each week over a period of several months to complete the job. The private engineering company completes the same task in just a couple of days. I'm not sure if the surveyors' incompetence is just standard government incompetence or due to union requirements.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
whitestar
Nov 30 2008, 07:02 PM
Dandandat
Nov 20 2008, 09:39 AM
whitestar, no one is denying (or at lest I'm not) that unions where ever a good thing. They where instrumental in bringing about workers rights that we all enjoy today union member or not.

The question is have they become obsolete?
I don't believe so but they certainly needed to be tamed some and they have been here in Aus.
As long as there is an employer/employee relationship there will always be a role for unions.
There are plenty of employer/employee relationships that get on just fine with out unions. So how do you rationalize the statement that so long as their are employer/employee relationships there will always be a role for unions.
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Minuet
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Dandandat
Dec 1 2008, 12:08 PM
whitestar
Nov 30 2008, 07:02 PM
Dandandat
Nov 20 2008, 09:39 AM
whitestar, no one is denying (or at lest I'm not) that unions where ever a good thing. They where instrumental in bringing about workers rights that we all enjoy today union member or not.

The question is have they become obsolete?
I don't believe so but they certainly needed to be tamed some and they have been here in Aus.
As long as there is an employer/employee relationship there will always be a role for unions.
There are plenty of employer/employee relationships that get on just fine with out unions. So how do you rationalize the statement that so long as their are employer/employee relationships there will always be a role for unions.
Back in the days of slavery there were some slaveowners who were cruel, but others treated thier slaves like family.

Do you think that slavery should have continued because some people were treated ok? Or do you think that action needed to be taken to help protect all.

Think of unions as the action taken to protect all.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Minuet
Dec 1 2008, 03:49 PM
Dandandat
Dec 1 2008, 12:08 PM
whitestar
Nov 30 2008, 07:02 PM
Dandandat
Nov 20 2008, 09:39 AM
whitestar, no one is denying (or at lest I'm not) that unions where ever a good thing. They where instrumental in bringing about workers rights that we all enjoy today union member or not.

The question is have they become obsolete?
I don't believe so but they certainly needed to be tamed some and they have been here in Aus.
As long as there is an employer/employee relationship there will always be a role for unions.
There are plenty of employer/employee relationships that get on just fine with out unions. So how do you rationalize the statement that so long as their are employer/employee relationships there will always be a role for unions.
Back in the days of slavery there were some slaveowners who were cruel, but others treated thier slaves like family.

Do you think that slavery should have continued because some people were treated ok? Or do you think that action needed to be taken to help protect all.

Think of unions as the action taken to protect all.
That is a non sequitur; even the slave owners who treated their slaves like family members still treated them like slaves. Not unlike pet owners treating their pets as family members but still treating them as pets. And so that analogy is not at all appropriate here.

Even when the slave owners treated their slaves as family members, they where still denying a human being their human right to be free. Even these "nice" slave owners where committing an injustice to humanity and in a world where all the slave owners are "nice" slave owners, the act is still reprehensible and would need to be stopped.

That is not at all analogous to the employee/employee relationship.


But here is an analogy that does fit.

The abolishment of slavery was the action taken to protect all from slavery. The abolishment of slavery came about in the US after civil warfare. While civil warfare was integral to the creation of these protections; now that slavery is abolished civil warfare is no longer needed and so is obsolete. It does not take constant civil war fair to insure that slavery does not once again become legal.

The laws enacted to protect against harsh working environments, child labor and ect where enacted to protect all from these dangers of the employee/employer relationship. These things came about in the US after unionized actions. While unionized action were an integral part in the creation of these work protection laws; now that these work protection laws exist unions are needed and so are obsolete. And as the many examples of functional employee/employer relatinships show unions are no longer need to insure that the harsh work environments do not once again become legal.


It is the laws that protect against slavery that protect all. It is the work protection laws that protect all.

Civil war is no longer needed to protect all from slavery; and unions are no longer needed to protect against ill working environments. In their time, they (unions and civil war) where much needed and so are things to be remembered always; but their time has passed.


Edited by Dandandat, Dec 1 2008, 05:19 PM.
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whitestar
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Dandandat
Dec 1 2008, 12:08 PM
There are plenty of employer/employee relationships that get on just fine with out unions. So how do you rationalize the statement that so long as their are employer/employee relationships there will always be a role for unions.
Your right, there are plenty of employer/employee relationships that get on just fine without unions. I myself have been self employed for most of my life and therefore have not needed to be a union member and my employees have never felt the need to join a union.
Though I may be a fair employer, the need for unions still exist as there are employers who will treat their employees with contempt.

"It is the work protection laws that protect all. "

That sounds fine and dandy untill those laws are swept away, which is what happened here with our last govt. "Work choices" was the catch phrase... employees were stripped of rights that had been won over a century of conflict. The govt claiming our Industrial Relations laws were archiac and holding back employment growth, a new regime of laws were needed for the 21st Cent... out went the right for annual leave, overtime rates, unfair dismissal, minimum wage, even a lunchbreak was threatened.. working conditions were to be negotiated between employer and employee at the commencement of employment and set in a contract.
The result of this new Industrial Relations regime was predictable, the employers returned to unethical behaviour and the employee was at the mercy of the bosses once more.
The next election was the only chance for the people to judge the govt on the sweeping changes to I/R... thank god for democracy, a govt that had a glittering economic record over 12yrs with an economy that was the envy of the industrialized world... booted out... "work choices" was the end of them, the opposition promised to repeal the new I/R regime and rebuild the old, that's all the people needed to know and they voted the govts arse outta there

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fireh8er
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I'm Captain Kirk!
Moderator Comment

Can we get back to the topic of the thread?

We were discussing whether Large Amercian Unions are a good thing.

If you want to discuss slavery, that's fine. All I ask, is that you start another thead.

We are discussing Large American Unions here.

End of Moderator Comment
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whitestar
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fireh8er
Dec 2 2008, 04:41 AM
Moderator Comment

Can we get back to the topic of the thread?

We were discussing whether Large Amercian Unions are a good thing.

If you want to discuss slavery, that's fine. All I ask, is that you start another thead.

We are discussing Large American Unions here.

End of Moderator Comment
With all due respect to a board mod and a fellow member fireh8er, it seems to me you have jumped the gun somewhat... the matter of slavery was merely a comparision, right or wrong.. thats what it is. Seems as though you have stepped from firm control of a volitile forum to micro managing the content of each post and opinions
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