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| Are current large American unions a good thing?; Or a bad thing? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 17 2008, 10:55 AM (892 Views) | |
| Dandandat | Nov 17 2008, 10:55 AM Post #1 |
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Time to put something here
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Are current large American unions a good thing or a bad thing? Example, The Auto industry: As you may know American auto companies are floundering, they are even asking to be bailed out by the US government from fear of having to file for bankruptcy. In contrast Japanese auto companies are prospering, even in this down economy. One of the biggest problems American auto companies face is with their cost structure; simply put the American auto companies cannot compete with Japanese companies do to overhead costs. One of the largest components that make the American auto companies cost structure uncompetitive is the American Auto Workers union. Items like, bloated pension plans, inflexible distribution of assets, and the inability to restructure the work force to meat current market conditions; cause the American auto companies to have higher over head costs than their Japanese counter parts. The Japanese companies (even those that operate in the US) do not allow (or try to actively prevent) unions from forming in their companies. As a result the do not have the same burden in their cost structure as the American auto companies do; which in turn is why they are better able to compete in the market. and why they are able to create a superior product at a lower cost. Further more despite not having a union, Americans working in Japanese auto companies are not treated to the doom and gloom unions would have us believe where it not for their efforts. Americans working in Japanese factories enjoy a higher level of employee empowerment. They are literally instructed to take an active role in the management of rhe manufacturing process, to make suggests, bring about change, and to even stop work flow when safety or quality are compromised in even the smallest degree (hence why Japanese cars are of higher quality). Japanese top management take pride in being able to boast that they are more accessible to the common worker than their American counter parts. The best evidence however, that the un-unionized American manufactures working for Japanese companies are better off in their current situation is that today they are not worried about the future of their industry and the future of their jobs. So here we have American companies who are floundering and can not turn out equal quality and priced product as the Japanese companies can; and the American Union is a big contributor to that problem. It seems that the Union is not adding any value to the American auto industry; nor is it creating any value for the American auto worker. But is a large contributing factor to the down fall of the American auto industry and in the end may cost the American auto worker more than it has gained What do you think? Edited by Dandandat, Nov 17 2008, 12:16 PM.
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| Dwayne | Nov 17 2008, 11:53 AM Post #2 |
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Profanity deleted by Hoss
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It's just not the automobiles, it's aircraft, it's schools, it's textiles... IT'S GOVERNMENT! Anywhere in the US economy where unions rule the day, we're going to see more of these issues. Edited by Dwayne, Nov 17 2008, 12:09 PM.
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| RTW | Nov 17 2008, 12:06 PM Post #3 |
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Vice Admiral
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Modern day American unions, overall, are a bad thing. This is not a recent event. It goes as least as far back to the 70's when silver prices plummeted. The owners of Sunshine Mines (?) in Idaho wanted to keep their silver mine open but needed to reduce costs. They asked the union to take a temporary pay cut, but keep their jobs. The miners union refused. The mine closed. Everyone was forced to relocate. They couldn't sell their homes because without the mine there was no reason for anyone to live there. Those miners could have been working for reduced pay, but instead, lost everything. |
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| Dandandat | Nov 17 2008, 12:06 PM Post #4 |
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Time to put something here
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I agree; the auto industry in my opinion is the easiest to talk about. Its readily understood by people, Most people have a direct tie to automobiles, and it doesn’t carry the emotional baggage that some like the teachers union does.
I agree with this as well, and with card check bill being high on the agenda for democrats; the Union bosses will gain more advantage if the secret ballet are take away from the workers. Edited by Dandandat, Nov 17 2008, 12:10 PM.
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| Admiralbill_gomec | Nov 17 2008, 12:09 PM Post #5 |
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UberAdmiral
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Scary, and thought provoking. |
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| ds9074 | Nov 18 2008, 06:14 AM Post #6 |
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Admiral
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At the local level union reps can have a positive impact. They help employees with a wide variety of issues and do a lot of good. This ranges from general advice, for instance helping employees considering their pensions, to assistance on specific issues individuals may be facing such as getting machinery and working practices made safe, helping sort out problems with pay not comming through, ensuring that managers operate within company policy and the law etc. Where things go wrong, IMO, is higher up the scale and I would agree with a lot of the points made by previous posters in relation to this. |
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| rowskid86 | Nov 18 2008, 07:18 AM Post #7 |
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Suck my Spock
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there was a time when a union was needed. that said Unions have got to go. Between the UAW, pipe fitters unions, or any other type of construction union and so on are not needed. for several reasons. 1. they end up paying the laziest person the same as the one who works hard, and no one tells because it's their union brother. 2. This might not be true out the Detroit area, but Unions here pressure people to vote Democrat during election times, between filling your head with propaganda, or actually threatening your job if you don't. 3. I've known people who where in the UAW and would tell stories all the time about other employee's instead of working would head off to the bar (On the clock) for 5 hours sometimes even 9 hours. and do this everyday, the unions wouldn't even try to discipline the worker becasue he was a union brother. |
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| Mel | Nov 18 2008, 07:34 AM Post #8 |
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Coffee Lover
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How can someone be threatened with their jobs if they are in the union? I'm genuinely curious. That said, I don't necessarily agree with unions. Used right, they protect the employees, but I've heard of too much abuse. what happens when it's the businesses that need protecting? An example: One very nice hotel in my city had a union. Said union went on strike, picketing and the whole lot. While I respected their right to picket, they became a nuissance to the city. I only say this because the strike lasted almost three years. Had it lasted a normal amount of time, I wouldn't have mentioned it. Some strikers had no incentive to go back to work. Why? Some of them (I'm guessing the lower paid employees) had better union pays than when they were working!!! What happened? The owner threatened to close down the hotel, and they didn't believe them. After a year of threatening to close, he finally did it, and now the whole building (not the mention it was the busiest hotel in town, smack in the middle of small city) is all boarded up! I know this is not what happens in all unionized businesses, and I know it can be done right. But yeah...businesses do go down because of them too. |
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| Dandandat | Nov 18 2008, 09:12 AM Post #9 |
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Time to put something here
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Why is it that American Auto workers working for Japanese companies not need a union to accomplish the things you mentioned? If Japanese companies can work effectively with out a Union, what value does the union provide? Sure at the local level a union "CAN" help with all those things you mentioned. But if workers don’t "NEED" a union to accomplish those things, than why have a union for those things knowing that at higher levels they have be a major problem? |
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| Dandandat | Nov 18 2008, 09:16 AM Post #10 |
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Time to put something here
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That is the crux of the matter. There was a time where unions where needed and we all union or not would have to thank certain unions of the past for brining to light the need and desire of a company to pay attention to workers rights and safety. But now that that battle has been won, unions are simply an archaic business tool in the modern society and global economy. They do more harm than the value they may ad to the business and worker. Like with most things in life stagnation is just the slow way to death. Innovation and change is always in order – it is no different with unions. |
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| Dandandat | Nov 18 2008, 09:25 AM Post #11 |
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Time to put something here
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My speculation (though I did not make the claim that they did) is that Unions can organize to "black ball" (of sorts) a union member who steps out of line. Other union members could make work life unbearable for the member who stepped out of line. Also union members can get fired from a job, its not like that have a free job for life by default. It only gets to that point because the union would come to back up a member who they think was "unduly" fired. So if I where a union boss and I wanted to get some one fired, I would find a way to get them fired and than not rally the union to stick up for the person. Since many big unions are corrupt at the top, its not unreasonable to assume that union bosses talk to company bosses on a regular bases under the table. So getting some fired would be easy for them. |
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| ds9074 | Nov 18 2008, 12:31 PM Post #12 |
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Admiral
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Do you know for a fact that those things, like safety and legal working, are going on in the Japanese owned companies without unions? Also rather odd that no-one in the Japanese companies wishes to or does belong to a union - why is that? or is that not the case? I know from my own experience that there can be a big difference in working practices between unionised and non-unionised workplaces. Having worked both for Royal Mail, which is heavily unionised, and for a private mail delivery company which was not I have seen the difference. The private company cut corners that shouldnt have been cut which meant it was in breach of its health and safety obligations under the law. No-one questioned this, despite it putting them at risk of injury. In Royal Mail the union reps would have been all over the management about the same conditions. Now the private company is able to under cut Royal Mail on price because safety does cost money. Frankly however it is wrong to try to gain competitive advantage by putting your workers health at risk and/or by breaking the law. For the record I did not opt to join the union at Royal Mail and have not joined the union in my current job. Edited by ds9074, Nov 18 2008, 12:38 PM.
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| Dandandat | Nov 18 2008, 01:04 PM Post #13 |
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Time to put something here
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Yes I do know for a fact that the things you mentioned, like safety and legal working, are going on in Japanese owned US factors without unions. The US vs Japanese owned US factories are a renowned case study involving key business issues such as cost structure and labor. Despite not having a union workers for Japanese companies do not suffer from mistreatment as compared to US company workers; and in some ways are treated notably better than US company workers. One example of this is the one I mentioned employee empowerment. The Japanese believe strongly in employee empowerment despite not having unions to force them to do so.
What they wish I can't tell you. Japanese companies simply forbit the formation of a union. so if one takes a job with them they agree not to join a union. I can tell you, knowing a lot of the information surrounding the issue I would be surprised if a significant amount of Japanese company workers would want a union rather than being happy with the way they have it at present. They are treated well and they don’t have to worry about the current problems US companies are facing.
What was the benefit that caused the employees to stay with the private mail delivery company despite the risk to their health and safety? Everything else being equal, if the private company was breach of its health and safety obligations under the law; than one of two things should have happened; some one should have blown the whistle or a significant amount of the employee base should have quite through free of their safety. For example where was the pay higher? |
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| ds9074 | Nov 18 2008, 01:15 PM Post #14 |
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Admiral
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^^^ The pay wasnt higher. It was lower. What kept people in the job was the need to be in work. What kept people from blowing the whistle was I think a real fear of loosing their jobs if they did. I did not know a company could forbid you to join a union. I believe that would be illegal here in the UK to force you not to join. ^^ Just checked the above, we have a right to join a union http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/TradeUnions/DG_10027560 Edited by ds9074, Nov 18 2008, 01:17 PM.
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| Dandandat | Nov 18 2008, 02:06 PM Post #15 |
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Time to put something here
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I misstated my earlier post; my words where to strong. Japanese companies cant stop people from organizing. That would be an infringement on many rights here in the US. But that actively would not deal with a union if one formed and they do what they can to discourage the formation. I should have said Japanese companies simply "don't allow" unions to form, forbid was to strong. With the private mail company; it sounds as if the workers were complacent. How would they even have a union if they where not willing to stand up for themselves? That is what a union is. The reason unions are no longer needed is not because crapy employers don’t exist anymore. But because laws now exist that allow an individual to stand up for themselves with out the need of power from the masses. Edited by Dandandat, Nov 18 2008, 02:12 PM.
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