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The tolerance test
Topic Started: Nov 13 2008, 04:58 PM (551 Views)
Dwayne
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Sad
Quote:
 
www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-kass-13-nov13,0,2881384.column

chicagotribune.com
Tolerance fails T-shirt test
John Kass

November 13, 2008

As the media keeps gushing on about how America has finally adopted tolerance as the great virtue, and that we're all united now, let's consider the Brave Catherine Vogt Experiment.

Catherine Vogt, 14, is an Illinois 8th grader, the daughter of a liberal mom and a conservative dad. She wanted to conduct an experiment in political tolerance and diversity of opinion at her school in the liberal suburb of Oak Park.

She noticed that fellow students at Gwendolyn Brooks Middle School overwhelmingly supported Barack Obama for president. His campaign kept preaching "inclusion," and she decided to see how included she could be.

So just before the election, Catherine consulted with her history teacher, then bravely wore a unique T-shirt to school and recorded the comments of teachers and students in her journal. The T-shirt bore the simple yet quite subversive words drawn with a red marker:

"McCain Girl."

"I was just really curious how they'd react to something that different, because a lot of people at my school wore Obama shirts and they are big Obama supporters," Catherine told us. "I just really wanted to see what their reaction would be."

Immediately, Catherine learned she was stupid for wearing a shirt with Republican John McCain's name. Not merely stupid. Very stupid.

"People were upset. But they started saying things, calling me very stupid, telling me my shirt was stupid and I shouldn't be wearing it," Catherine said.

Then it got worse.

"One person told me to go die. It was a lot of dying. A lot of comments about how I should be killed," Catherine said, of the tolerance in Oak Park.

But students weren't the only ones surprised that she wore a shirt supporting McCain.

"In one class, I had one teacher say she will not judge me for my choice, but that she was surprised that I supported McCain," Catherine said.

If Catherine was shocked by such passive-aggressive threats from instructors, just wait until she goes to college.

"Later, that teacher found out about the experiment and said she was embarrassed because she knew I was writing down what she said," Catherine said.

One student suggested that she be put up on a cross for her political beliefs.

"He said, 'You should be crucifixed.' It was kind of funny because, I was like, don't you mean 'crucified?' " Catherine said.

Other entries in her notebook involved suggestions by classmates that she be "burned with her shirt on" for "being a filthy-rich Republican."

Some said that because she supported McCain, by extension she supported a plan by deranged skinheads to kill Obama before the election. And I thought such politicized logic was confined to American newsrooms. Yet Catherine refused to argue with her peers. She didn't want to jeopardize her experiment.

"I couldn't show people really what it was for. I really kind of wanted to laugh because they had no idea what I was doing," she said.

Only a few times did anyone say anything remotely positive about her McCain shirt. One girl pulled her aside in a corner, out of earshot of other students, and whispered, "I really like your shirt."

That's when you know America is truly supportive of diversity of opinion, when children must whisper for fear of being ostracized, heckled and crucifixed.

The next day, in part 2 of The Brave Catherine Vogt Experiment, she wore another T-shirt, this one with "Obama Girl" written in blue. And an amazing thing happened.

Catherine wasn't very stupid anymore. She grew brains.

"People liked my shirt. They said things like my brain had come back, and I had put the right shirt on today," Catherine said.

Some students accused her of playing both sides.

"A lot of people liked it. But some people told me I was a flip-flopper," she said. "They said, 'You can't make up your mind. You can't wear a McCain shirt one day and an Obama shirt the next day.' "

But she sure did, and she turned her journal into a report for her history teacher, earning Catherine extra credit. We asked the teacher, Norma Cassin-Pountney, whether it was ironic that Catherine would be subject to such intolerance from pro-Obama supporters in a community that prides itself on its liberal outlook.

"That's what we discussed," Cassin-Pountney said about the debate in the classroom when the experiment was revealed. "I said, here you are, promoting this person [Obama] that believes we are all equal and included, and look what you've done? The students were kind of like, 'Oh, yeah.' I think they got it."

Catherine never told us which candidate she would have voted for if she weren't an 8th grader. But she said she learned what it was like to be in the minority.

"Just being on the outside, how it felt, it was not fun at all," she said.

Don't ever feel as if you must conform, Catherine. Being on the outside isn't so bad. Trust me.
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captain_proton_au
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A Robot in Disguise

She sounds like a clever girl
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Admiralbill_gomec
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Typical. Is anyone surprised? One thing that struck me.

They called her "dumb and stupid" for supporting McCain, and should be burned with her shirt on for being a “filthy rich Republican”.

Well, if Republicans were so "dumb and stupid," how did they become so "filthy rich?"




Wow, such groupthink and Brave New World-ish.
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rowskid86
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Suck my Spock
the thing is this happens everywhere. Obama supporters heckling, threatening, defacing, insulting anything owned by a mcCain supporter or the person themselves.


Hell look at what Happened to me that I posted the Tangent thread. getting my truck egged whiel visiting my aunt and uncles for my uncles B-day party. my truck got egged and written on my dirt on my truck mcCan sucks couldn't even spell the name correctly. I didn't want to make big deal out of it so I just washed it off.

Heard on Mike in the Morning about a girl being assulted because she had a McCain Pin on her bag. I don't remember the Campus it happened on.

The thing is many people who lean tot he right or are really conservative would never think of doing anything like this, yet some people on the left continue to do.

Lets take my Idol Ted Nugent, do you know how many death threats against him and his family he has had for his conservative views and pro hunting? all from extreme anti-hunters/PETA assholes and your typical leftist. it's sickening. really is.

they say we are intolerant of others, when they are infact the one's who are intolerant.
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Dwayne
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I could relate similar experiences, but suffice it to say I don't need to, because the point is the same.
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Franko
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Dwayne
Nov 13 2008, 10:33 PM
I could relate similar experiences, but suffice it to say I don't need to, because the point is the same.




So, in effect, you believe that conservative/republicans are morally superior to liberals/democrats ?



Edited by Franko, Nov 13 2008, 10:37 PM.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Here is my honest take of the Republican and Democratic parties. They’re both hypocritical with regards to their party platforms.

But for some reason I find I can excuse the Republicans a lot more easily than the Democrats.

It’s probably because I find I agree with the party platform of the Democrats more so then the Republicans. So when the Republicans act hypocritical to their platform they move closer toward me, but when the Democrats act hypocritical they disappoint me.

This is just but one example of that
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Intrepid2002
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UNGH!
^^^

That was deep.
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Swidden
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I wonder if this young lady's lesson will actually stick with any of her peers or instructors.

As someone else higher up in this thread indicated: Clever girl.
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fireh8er
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I'm Captain Kirk!
Not only was she smart, she was brave. Her parents should be very pround. Lets hope all our children are this smart.
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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
Dandandat
Nov 14 2008, 12:08 AM
Here is my honest take of the Republican and Democratic parties. They’re both hypocritical with regards to their party platforms.

But for some reason I find I can excuse the Republicans a lot more easily than the Democrats.

It’s probably because I find I agree with the party platform of the Democrats more so then the Republicans. So when the Republicans act hypocritical to their platform they move closer toward me, but when the Democrats act hypocritical they disappoint me.

This is just but one example of that
People are hypocrites, irrespective of political orientation. Although we're not all hypocrites to the same degree, we're all hypocrites to one degree or another, and that's just the way it is.

The said, my attitude about republicans and democrats was formed by many things, but I think there were three pivotal moments/events in my life that really solidified my opinions.

First: The Iranian Hostage Crisis... the first hope and change president, Jimmy Carter, hoped some change would improve human rights in Iran, and his actions directly lead to the rise of Khomeini and the Shiite Islamic theocracy, and that indirectly to much of the instability in the Middle East today. It lead to this, because Iran then became the benefactor of Hezballah, Hamas and other terrorists groups in the region. Then in dealing with the monster he unleashed on the world, Carter came off as ineffective and wimpy. His second guessing and indecision assured the fall of The Shah and the rise of Islamic extremism, and that opened my eyes to see that no amount capitulation to Islamic extremists would bring us safety.

Second: EDIT, my high school humanities/current events teacher... this teacher (I use that term quite lightly.) thought it her duty to harangue students on an almost daily basis about the fact that Pres. Reagan won and that being in Kansas, '... your stupid parents voted for him.' I took from this that leftists really are not liberal... they're just leftists.

Third: The Collapse of the Iron Curtain and the Berlin Wall... in hindsight, the left can argue all they like about helping fight the Soviet Union during the Cold War, but the opinions from the left during that time argue otherwise. Time and time again, democrats were opposed to almost all efforts to push back against communist imperialism. The previously mentioned teacher routinely laughed at the concept that we could win the Cold War, and from Central and South America, to Africa and Asia, the left opposed attempts to stop communism with the concept that it was actually America that were the bad guys. In my debates with these people I would point that I didn't see that many people trying to defect to the USSR, while there was plenty of evidence that showed people trying to defect to the USA. I opined that eventually the Iron Curtain would collapse due to both internal and external pressure, but only if both existed. In other words, the internal pressure required the external pressure to be effective at all, such as the case with Poland. What America was doing to fight the communists was important and the left routinely cast tons of vitriol on this effort. They claimed all Reagan was doing was trying to start WW3. They claimed that it was a fools errand and impossible to realize, and that we needed to get used to communism. They were wrong, and many didn't seem to care, because party politics was way more important to them.

By the time the Berlin Wall came down I was solidly in the conservative camp. The liberation of Kuwait, the presidency of Bill Clinton, 9-11, the liberation of Iraq and Afghanistan, and even my own admissions about my sexuality, all just reaffirmed my attitudes about the left. The left is not liberal. In fact, the left is quite ill-liberal. The left is two-faced in that it talks effusively about freedom of speech and tolerance and fairness, but it only applies to themselves. In short, they are intolerant and unfair toward people they disagree, and they'll go so far as to silence their critics with a variety of means. Their favorite means of silencing people with opposing opinions is the shout down, and if you've ever had this tactic used on you, you can attest to how intimidating it can be. Name calling is also quite a familiar mode of operation too, especially if you're from a demographic that the left supposedly owns, such as women, blacks or gays. The treatment of Condi Rice and the Uncle Tom smears are a perfect example.

On the flip side, something else I came to realize about myself was that I didn't belong to a political party. I am an American, not a republican or democrat. I did not and do not march lockstep with any ideology, although many who are solidly on one side or the other often like to claim they know which side of the aisle my loyalties rest, but I've found myself at different times voting for democrats and libertarians when I found a candidates' issues favorable to me.

So I guess if I could really sum this up, I too found republicans far less hypocritical than democrats and the left, and far more pro-America than the same.

Addendum: Since I know some here who may identify themselves as "on the left" are already taking offense, let me just be clear, I'm not trying to over-generalize, so I hope no offense is taken. I use the phrase rhetorically to describe the chattering class, so to speak. It's the people you read in column and hear on TV.

Some times it's not even a person, but an attitude that's a cliché. A good example is the new 007 movie, Quantum of Solace. It was one leftist cliché after another.

Spoiler: click to toggle


It got worse from there. Suffice it to say, it was the worse Bond ever, imo, but I digress, I just want to convey that I hate seeming to talk in generalities, but it's hard not to.

Every time I hear a reporter gush about this or that politician on the left and vilify this or that politician on the right, I see that as coming from the left. Every time I see a TV program that insults America with leftist propaganda, such as the concept that we only went into Iraq for the oil, I see that as coming from the left. There is just so much I see that as coming from the left and I verbalize it, so I understand it seeming like generalization. It is, and I'm sorry, but I just don't have any other way to verbalize it.
Edited by Wichita, Nov 15 2008, 11:36 AM.
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RTW
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Franko
Nov 13 2008, 10:37 PM
Dwayne
Nov 13 2008, 10:33 PM
I could relate similar experiences, but suffice it to say I don't need to, because the point is the same.
So, in effect, you believe that conservative/republicans are morally superior to liberals/democrats ?
As shown by the example in this article, the minority of rabid political supporters who cross the line are more likely to be on the left than the right in the USA.

Let's see if you can make a straw man argument out of that! ;)
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Swidden
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RTW
Nov 14 2008, 11:43 AM
Franko
Nov 13 2008, 10:37 PM
Dwayne
Nov 13 2008, 10:33 PM
I could relate similar experiences, but suffice it to say I don't need to, because the point is the same.
So, in effect, you believe that conservative/republicans are morally superior to liberals/democrats ?
As shown by the example in this article, the minority of rabid political supporters who cross the line are more likely to be on the left than the right in the USA.

Let's see if you can make a straw man argument out of that! ;)
Thing is, this was done in an area that is heavily liberal to start with. That leads to the likelihood that there are bound to be a larger number of numbnuts that feel it is their obligation and duty to admonish those that seemingly do not share their belief/opinion. A good way to test whether it is more limited to left being intolerant of conservatives would be to duplicate the experiment in an area that is as siginificantly conservative as the area in question is liberal.

My own geographic region is heavily slanted towards the left, especially the Santa Cruz area (compared to many in that community President-elect Obama is not liberal enough for them!). I cannot begin to tell you the level of disdain and contempt that has been heaped upon President Bush's Administration. I have no doubt that if someone had conducted a similar experiment in a Santa Cruz area high school the result would have been much the same.
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rowskid86
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Quote:
 
On the flip side, something else I came to realize about myself was that I didn't belong to a political party. I am an American, not a republican or democrat. I did not and do not march lockstep with any ideology, although many who are solidly on one side or the other often like to claim they know which side of the aisle my loyalties rest, but I've found myself at different times voting for democrats and libertarians when I found a candidates' issues favorable to me.


I'm kinda the same way, People keep calling me "That damned Republican." when in fact I really am not, I and a strong conservative, if I would really classify myself to a party I think the US Constitution party is one that might fit better. when I vote I look who has the closest views and belief's as myself.

Quote:
 
I could relate similar experiences, but suffice it to say I don't need to, because the point is the same.


those where just a small few of the experiences I have had, some happened in high school, but most was in college, and some afterward. I know the entire left is not like that, but when you have dozens upon dozens upon dozens of bad experiences with people on the left it's hard to not have a strong bias against the left. Personal experience that happens over and over, can really help set an opinion.
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whitestar
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Dwayne
Nov 14 2008, 11:41 AM
Dandandat
Nov 14 2008, 12:08 AM
Here is my honest take of the Republican and Democratic parties. They’re both hypocritical with regards to their party platforms.

But for some reason I find I can excuse the Republicans a lot more easily than the Democrats.

It’s probably because I find I agree with the party platform of the Democrats more so then the Republicans. So when the Republicans act hypocritical to their platform they move closer toward me, but when the Democrats act hypocritical they disappoint me.

This is just but one example of that
People are hypocrites, irrespective of political orientation. Although we're not all hypocrites to the same degree, we're all hypocrites to one degree or another, and that's just the way it is.

The said, my attitude about republicans and democrats was formed by many things, but I think there were three pivotal moments/events in my life that really solidified my opinions.

First: The Iranian Hostage Crisis... the first hope and change president, Jimmy Carter, hoped some change would improve human rights in Iran, and his actions directly lead to the rise of Khomeini and the Shiite Islamic theocracy, and that indirectly to much of the instability in the Middle East today. It lead to this, because Iran then became the benefactor of Hezballah, Hamas and other terrorists groups in the region. Then in dealing with the monster he unleashed on the world, Carter came off as ineffective and wimpy. His second guessing and indecision assured the fall of The Shah and the rise of Islamic extremism, and that opened my eyes to see that no amount capitulation to Islamic extremists would bring us safety.

Second: EDIT, my high school humanities/current events teacher... this teacher (I use that term quite lightly.) thought it her duty to harangue students on an almost daily basis about the fact that Pres. Reagan won and that being in Kansas, '... your stupid parents voted for him.' I took from this that leftists really are not liberal... they're just leftists.

Third: The Collapse of the Iron Curtain and the Berlin Wall... in hindsight, the left can argue all they like about helping fight the Soviet Union during the Cold War, but the opinions from the left during that time argue otherwise. Time and time again, democrats were opposed to almost all efforts to push back against communist imperialism. The previously mentioned teacher routinely laughed at the concept that we could win the Cold War, and from Central and South America, to Africa and Asia, the left opposed attempts to stop communism with the concept that it was actually America that were the bad guys. In my debates with these people I would point that I didn't see that many people trying to defect to the USSR, while there was plenty of evidence that showed people trying to defect to the USA. I opined that eventually the Iron Curtain would collapse due to both internal and external pressure, but only if both existed. In other words, the internal pressure required the external pressure to be effective at all, such as the case with Poland. What America was doing to fight the communists was important and the left routinely cast tons of vitriol on this effort. They claimed all Reagan was doing was trying to start WW3. They claimed that it was a fools errand and impossible to realize, and that we needed to get used to communism. They were wrong, and many didn't seem to care, because party politics was way more important to them.

By the time the Berlin Wall came down I was solidly in the conservative camp. The liberation of Kuwait, the presidency of Bill Clinton, 9-11, the liberation of Iraq and Afghanistan, and even my own admissions about my sexuality, all just reaffirmed my attitudes about the left. The left is not liberal. In fact, the left is quite ill-liberal. The left is two-faced in that it talks effusively about freedom of speech and tolerance and fairness, but it only applies to themselves. In short, they are intolerant and unfair toward people they disagree, and they'll go so far as to silence their critics with a variety of means. Their favorite means of silencing people with opposing opinions is the shout down, and if you've ever had this tactic used on you, you can attest to how intimidating it can be. Name calling is also quite a familiar mode of operation too, especially if you're from a demographic that the left supposedly owns, such as women, blacks or gays. The treatment of Condi Rice and the Uncle Tom smears are a perfect example.

On the flip side, something else I came to realize about myself was that I didn't belong to a political party. I am an American, not a republican or democrat. I did not and do not march lockstep with any ideology, although many who are solidly on one side or the other often like to claim they know which side of the aisle my loyalties rest, but I've found myself at different times voting for democrats and libertarians when I found a candidates' issues favorable to me.

So I guess if I could really sum this up, I too found republicans far less hypocritical than democrats and the left, and far more pro-America than the same.

Addendum: Since I know some here who may identify themselves as "on the left" are already taking offense, let me just be clear, I'm not trying to over-generalize, so I hope no offense is taken. I use the phrase rhetorically to describe the chattering class, so to speak. It's the people you read in column and hear on TV.

Some times it's not even a person, but an attitude that's a cliché. A good example is the new 007 movie, Quantum of Solace. It was one leftist cliché after another.

Spoiler: click to toggle


It got worse from there. Suffice it to say, it was the worse Bond ever, imo, but I digress, I just want to convey that I hate seeming to talk in generalities, but it's hard not to.

Every time I hear a reporter gush about this or that politician on the left and vilify this or that politician on the right, I see that as coming from the left. Every time I see a TV program that insults America with leftist propaganda, such as the concept that we only went into Iraq for the oil, I see that as coming from the left. There is just so much I see that as coming from the left and I verbalize it, so I understand it seeming like generalization. It is, and I'm sorry, but I just don't have any other way to verbalize it.
Your take on Carter's influence regarding the rise of Islamism in Iraq is a little inflated. No matter the colour or character of the US administration the Iranian revolution was a direct result of a govt turning the military on the people of it's nation. The troubles caused by a govt that was no longer listening and using brute force to attempt to silence it's growing opposition, an opposition that began many decades before Carter. Carter's problem was simple, he was American, continuing to prop up a repressive regime that would have fallen was it not for American intervention, intervention that had begun in the fifties. Thus the Iranian resentment of all things western, especially American.

The influence by the teacher from hell should have faded by now, she was a fool and I'm sure in your adult worldview you can see that now, no reflection should continue from that regarding politics, surely.

I'm sure you remember the left opposing the right during the cold war years, that's what opposition do, they oppose.
If you actually forsaw the fall of the Soviet Union your a smarter man than me and your friends. I knew no other way than us v's them, west v's east, good v's evil and fully expected to go to my grave with a cold war still part of our lives.. to see the Berlin Wall come down was one of the biggest shocks of my life and the relief of no longer having to live with the imminent threat of a nuke taking out the fair city of Sydney (because there may a US nuclear armed ship in any Aust harbour) was something I fail to have words for. I knew it was right to oppose them and grateful that the West had a guardian called the US of A but I never thought it would end in my lifetime and then they found the Titantic, never thought such things would change.
In my later years of adulthood I have also come to realize how ruthless govt's can be, left or right and was mightily shocked at the ruthless methods the good guy's (the US) used in South America during the cold war years.. it disillusioned me and was the beginning of my cynical side to all political persuasions.
You see everything in shades of left or right, your remarks regarding the latest Bond movie points to just that, it's just a movie and maybe you need a new interest outside of politics to balance your view on life.

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