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Obama's Cult of Personality
Topic Started: Nov 10 2008, 03:05 PM (726 Views)
Dandandat
Member Avatar
Time to put something here
I thought it might be interesting to continue the discussion

http://s2.zetaboards.com/SisterTrek/topic/5026667/1/?x=90#new

--------------------------------------------

In responce to Minuets last post in the above thread.

Minuet
 
So I guess Obama is to blame that people like him. It's all his fault and he must be creepy.

Gee did any of you stop to think that maybe he is just charismatic. JFK was charismatic. Did anyone refer to him as "creepy"?

Gee why don't you guys at least give the man a chance to get through the inaugeration before you make these silly trumped up excuses to attack him.


I sent her this in a PM

Dante
 
Is Obama to blame that people like him? That can be answered in two ways. Yes and no. If he is simply a genuine guy unremarkably indifferent from other politicians then of course he is not to blame that people like him. But if it was his goal to create a situation where people follow him despite having a clear vision of the future through vague and open ended redirect in the hopes of deceiving people; then yes he is to blame.

Was Hitler to blame for causing people to like him? Yes. That doesn’t mean Obama is Hitler and I would never make the comparison. But if the topic of discussion is charismatic appeal at the level Obama enjoys, its not unfounded to be concerned. I would say this of any politician. It is the highest job of the people to insure that our leaders don’t turn into the next Hitler in the face of the immense power we endow them with; we don’t do that by being complacent and giving them the benefit of the doubt; we do that by keeping an ever watchful eye on them and letting them know where doing it.

The level of appeal Obama has, and for some it is at irrational levels, is a bit "creepy" and should be kept in check. President Clinton was a well like president but defiantly not on this level, The current president had an equally lack of appeal, for some an irrational hatred. Its not beyond bounds to say Obama's appeal is something for the people to keep an eye on. It is a remarkable departure from the average president.

I was not alive to contemplate whether JFK was "creepy" or not. I am however familiar with the history of the times; had I been the person I am now alive then, I would have just as much apprehension about JFK as I do Obama now. Not a mindless apprehension mind you, but a cautious one.

Also we should keep in mind JFK was not the prefect president and his level of appeal through charisma allowed him to dispel many of his wrongful acts. Most of his wrongful acts where personal in nature, and so JFK was not "bad man" but if he was a "bad man" what could have been the outcome?

In fact JFK should be on the list of most ineffectual presidents; but instead is on the list of one of our greatest presidents. That’s a bit creepy in and of itself. The many didn't do much for the country, may have even caused the destruction of the planet, and yet history remembers him as a great man and president. Had he had ulterior motives he could most defiantly used his cerium and appeal to further them. And for a while, who can say for how long, the American people would have followed him.


She did respond to me; but I wont place the contents of her privet message here.


----------------


Also

A US national holiday for a man who is not yet a president.?

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/262183



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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
The gist of the response I sent Dandandat was that I understood his concerns as outlined here.

This does not make Obama "creepy". I simply felt that the man should be given a chance before people start attacking him.

I didn't say this in the PM, but I could see how this would make some of his FOLLOWERS creepy, but not the man himself. Seeing the additional link that Dandandat has provided does make one wonder about the people who would ask for a national holiday. I truely think this is an extremely small subset of the people who actually voted for Obama. My words about waiting to see how he governs applies to them just as strongly as it does to the people who would seek to discredit the man before he even assumes the post officially.
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Dwayne
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Hey, Dan... one small thing you missed in your response...

No one every said that Obama was creepy, what was said was the that personality cult developing around him was slightly creepy... And again, it wasn't republicans saying this, it was two rather well know members of the the press.
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Minuet
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Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Dwayne
Nov 10 2008, 04:05 PM
Hey, Dan... one small thing you missed in your response...

No one every said that Obama was creepy, what was said was the that personality cult developing around him was slightly creepy... And again, it wasn't republicans saying this, it was two rather well know members of the the press.
Correction.

The following response you made to Admiralbill was calling Obama creepy.

Quote:
 
Yeah, he keeps moving from the slightly side of creepy to just plain creepy.


Now if you wish to discuss a "cult" around him that is very very different. I could even agree that some people are acting more then a bit over the top. But that is not Obama's fault and that is why I made the comments that I did in the other thread.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
Minuet
Nov 10 2008, 04:29 PM
Now if you wish to discuss a "cult" around him that is very very different. I could even agree that some people are acting more then a bit over the top. But that is not Obama's fault and that is why I made the comments that I did in the other thread.
His fault would up for debate. It can be argued that his method of campaigning has lead to those people being over the top.

His overly vague explanation and presentation of himself leads people to see what they want to see; and his powerful use of motivational vs policy driven campaigning would caused a hinted sense of emotion around him.

Those things are directly attributed to his actions and so would be his fault.
Edited by Dandandat, Nov 10 2008, 04:51 PM.
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ds9074
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Admiral
There is a difference between general popularity and a cult of personality. The later does not necessarily require the former.

I can't help thinking, when reading through the responses, of Margaret Thatcher. She ended up with supporters who were blindly loyal to her, who showed a kind of zealotry towards her to the point where it became an ideology with a name - Thatcherism. From accounts of those looking back now this cult that built up within the Conservative party of Thatcherites contributed both to her downfall politically and to years of turmoil and infighting within her party.

You could see the cult of personality as causing a vicious cycle, encouraging her to care less and less for consensus, to seek to override her cabinet's view more often, to move to more extreme positions and policies. So she became less popular generally. So her supporters became more and more zealous in defending her. So more were alienated and she became less popular. Until finally she was removed but then she and certainly her supporters went on to cause years of turmoil in revenge against their own party for her removal. In many ways she had become more important for those zealous supporters than their political party and certainly the interests of the country.

I am not saying Obama will go this way but he needs to watch out and keep his feet on the ground. One good thing of course about the American system is there can be none of Thatcher's arrogant boasting about going on and on in power. He has 8 years max and the thing about political personality cults is that they really need the personality to be at the top to work.
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Dandandat
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Time to put something here
ds9074
Nov 10 2008, 06:08 PM
There is a difference between general popularity and a cult of personality. The later does not necessarily require the former.

I can't help thinking, when reading through the responses, of Margaret Thatcher. She ended up with supporters who were blindly loyal to her, who showed a kind of zealotry towards her to the point where it became an ideology with a name - Thatcherism. From accounts of those looking back now this cult that built up within the Conservative party of Thatcherites contributed both to her downfall politically and to years of turmoil and infighting within her party.

You could see the cult of personality as causing a vicious cycle, encouraging her to care less and less for consensus, to seek to override her cabinet's view more often, to move to more extreme positions and policies. So she became less popular generally. So her supporters became more and more zealous in defending her. So more were alienated and she became less popular. Until finally she was removed but then she and certainly her supporters went on to cause years of turmoil in revenge against their own party for her removal. In many ways she had become more important for those zealous supporters than their political party and certainly the interests of the country.

I am not saying Obama will go this way but he needs to watch out and keep his feet on the ground. One good thing of course about the American system is there can be none of Thatcher's arrogant boasting about going on and on in power. He has 8 years max and the thing about political personality cults is that they really need the personality to be at the top to work.
A president (in general) can do a lot of damge in 8 years if left unchecked.
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Dwayne
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ds9074
Nov 10 2008, 06:08 PM
There is a difference between general popularity and a cult of personality. The later does not necessarily require the former.

I can't help thinking, when reading through the responses, of Margaret Thatcher. She ended up with supporters who were blindly loyal to her, who showed a kind of zealotry towards her to the point where it became an ideology with a name - Thatcherism. From accounts of those looking back now this cult that built up within the Conservative party of Thatcherites contributed both to her downfall politically and to years of turmoil and infighting within her party.

You could see the cult of personality as causing a vicious cycle, encouraging her to care less and less for consensus, to seek to override her cabinet's view more often, to move to more extreme positions and policies. So she became less popular generally. So her supporters became more and more zealous in defending her. So more were alienated and she became less popular. Until finally she was removed but then she and certainly her supporters went on to cause years of turmoil in revenge against their own party for her removal. In many ways she had become more important for those zealous supporters than their political party and certainly the interests of the country.

I am not saying Obama will go this way but he needs to watch out and keep his feet on the ground. One good thing of course about the American system is there can be none of Thatcher's arrogant boasting about going on and on in power. He has 8 years max and the thing about political personality cults is that they really need the personality to be at the top to work.
Sorry, but I just don't think you understand what a personality cult really is. Having sycophantic supporters of a politician does not make a personality cult, but having a sycophatic media that doesn't challenge the notions and opinions expressed by the politician is an aspect of a personality cult.

From my memory of the Thatcher era, the British media loathed this woman. From her handling of the labor disputes, to her Iron Lady persona and friendship with Pres. Reagan, to her Poll Tax, I actually don't remember much positive news about her.

In short, the lack of a sycophantic media propping her up as the cure for all British ills, is contrary to the notion of a personality cult.
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Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
All the crying people at Obama rallies... yup, cult of personality.

There's a reason why some of called him "The Messiah" or "Obamessiah." They have seen the cultlike devotion that some followers have. Think Jonestown kind of devotion.

Scary stuff. Hopefully some of these people will come to their senses and see that they elected a man, not a god.
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ds9074
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Admiral
Dwayne
Nov 11 2008, 10:46 AM
ds9074
Nov 10 2008, 06:08 PM
There is a difference between general popularity and a cult of personality. The later does not necessarily require the former.

I can't help thinking, when reading through the responses, of Margaret Thatcher. She ended up with supporters who were blindly loyal to her, who showed a kind of zealotry towards her to the point where it became an ideology with a name - Thatcherism. From accounts of those looking back now this cult that built up within the Conservative party of Thatcherites contributed both to her downfall politically and to years of turmoil and infighting within her party.

You could see the cult of personality as causing a vicious cycle, encouraging her to care less and less for consensus, to seek to override her cabinet's view more often, to move to more extreme positions and policies. So she became less popular generally. So her supporters became more and more zealous in defending her. So more were alienated and she became less popular. Until finally she was removed but then she and certainly her supporters went on to cause years of turmoil in revenge against their own party for her removal. In many ways she had become more important for those zealous supporters than their political party and certainly the interests of the country.

I am not saying Obama will go this way but he needs to watch out and keep his feet on the ground. One good thing of course about the American system is there can be none of Thatcher's arrogant boasting about going on and on in power. He has 8 years max and the thing about political personality cults is that they really need the personality to be at the top to work.
Sorry, but I just don't think you understand what a personality cult really is. Having sycophantic supporters of a politician does not make a personality cult, but having a sycophatic media that doesn't challenge the notions and opinions expressed by the politician is an aspect of a personality cult.

From my memory of the Thatcher era, the British media loathed this woman. From her handling of the labor disputes, to her Iron Lady persona and friendship with Pres. Reagan, to her Poll Tax, I actually don't remember much positive news about her.

In short, the lack of a sycophantic media propping her up as the cure for all British ills, is contrary to the notion of a personality cult.
Well I have to disagree Dwayne. As I said I dont think a personality cult of a politician has to equate to general popularity at all. In fact Obama may find if and when his popularity amoungst the overall population starts to dip that the cult of personality building up around him, if thats what it is, deepens and becomes more extreme. Those caught up in the cult will not easily tolerate dissent against their leader.

This is perhaps a minor tangent but what does concern me is the potential for race to flare up as an issue when Obama starts to come under attack for his actions in office. If he or his supporters try and use race as a shield against attack that could be very dangerous indeed. For what its worth I dont think Obama would do that himself but I think that there are others who might.
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Dwayne
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^^^ And I'd have to say, you really don't understand what a personality cult is.

You seem to believe zealous supporters of a politician are the defining characteristic of personality cult, but it's not. The defining characteristic is the unquestioning loyalty of supporters coupled with a sustained mass media attempt to sway people with heroic images of the politician.

This is as good a definition you'll find anywhere --- "...when a country's leader gets the people of that country to all but worship hem/her. Cities, rivers, regions etc are named after him and towns and cities are littered with huge posters of the leader."

Wikipedia defines personality cult as --- "...when a country's leader uses mass media to create a heroic public image through unquestioning flattery and praise."

Dictionary.com defines it as --- "...a cult promoting adulation of a living national leader or public figure, as one encouraged by Stalin to extend his power."

I really don't see how Mrs. Thatcher fit this model.
Edited by Dwayne, Nov 11 2008, 01:36 PM.
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ds9074
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Admiral
^^^
Well we shall have to disagree :)
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Dwayne
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Agreeing to disagree is one thing, but pulling out a car and calling it a bicycle is not disagreeing... it's just plain wrong, which is why I went to the definitions.
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ds9074
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Admiral
Thing is I would see a Cult of Personality as having these characteristics;

- Leader portrayed by supporters as a hero, close to perfection, unfailingly correct, righteous etc.
- Unquestioning, zealous supporters
- Loyalty to the leader becomes most important overiding older or wider loyalties eg. political party, country, even friends and family
- Propaganda put out by leader and/or supporters to encourage cult/ gain or maintain position of power
- Attacks on anyone who does not support the leader

I would say that the mass media could, either voluntarily or by force, become supporters of the cult but that they do not necessarily have to be. The same for a majority of the population.
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Dwayne
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^^^ And all definitions I see on a cult of personality specifically require gross adoration and hero worship via media.
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