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Should the Electoral College system in the USA be; ditched for another system ?
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Topic Started: Nov 5 2008, 07:01 AM (910 Views)
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somerled
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Nov 6 2008, 11:18 AM
Post #31
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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2 yes so far .... presumeably from americans .... interesting.
Didn't expect anyone to be game to vote yes.
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somerled
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Nov 6 2008, 11:24 AM
Post #32
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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- Dr. Noah
- Nov 6 2008, 06:56 AM
Let's look at it this way.
Alaska has a population of 670,053 according to the 2006 Census estimate. They have 3 electoral votes. That gives an electoral vote to every 223,351 people in Alaska. Whereas New York state with a population of 19,306,183 and has 31 electoral votes. That gives an electoral vote to every 622,780 people in New York State. Alaska has nearly three times the proportional representation as New York. One electoral vote for nearly the entire population of Alaska in New York. I saw that , not fair that a people in a small state have proportionally more say than those in a much bigger state .... here we call that : Gerrymandering (is a form of redistribution in which electoral district or constituency boundaries are manipulated for electoral advantage. Gerrymandering may be used to help or hinder particular constituents, such as members of a political, racial, linguistic, religious or class group ) and would be a scandel.
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somerled
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Nov 6 2008, 11:26 AM
Post #33
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Admiral MacDonald RN
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- Admiralbill_gomec
- Nov 6 2008, 10:00 AM
- somerled
- Nov 6 2008, 02:03 AM
- Dandandat
- Nov 5 2008, 10:48 PM
- somerled
- Nov 5 2008, 10:25 PM
- Dandandat
- Nov 5 2008, 10:21 PM
- somerled
- Nov 5 2008, 09:54 PM
Well it is very strange and lot different to our election system - so it's understandable that some of us foreigners who have not grown up being told about it and how it "works" might be a tad confused.
Well then for you foreigners; its really simple to understand. The US is not a homogenize single state, it’s a union of smaller states. The electoral college is a system designed so that within the union larger states cannot make smaller states irrelevant.
Um .... nor is Australia , anyone who has spent any time here will attest to how diverse Australia is , we are at least as diverse as the USA , maybe more so. We have a federal system too , and similar state's rights issues. The men (and women) who established our federation looked at lots of different systems to come up with what they believed was the most fair , rejecting the USA system which they also considered at the turn of 20th century. They were wize men in my humble opinion. We get buy very nicely using a different system.
You also have a population 15% the size of ours. Your population density is concentrated much different than ours. Your GDP is vastly smaller than ours. Australia would just be another state in our union. That you would compare the US and Australia in this way is comical and non-intellectual. California works just fine with a centralized government; that is what you should compare Australia too. And on that scale you are quite right your system works fine. On the scale the size of the US there have to be safe grads in place to make sure one country size state does not dominate the other smaller country sized states.
So what (size of population) ?
Australia's population and GDP are smaller than the state of Texas. Irrelevant.
And so what.
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Admiralbill_gomec
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Nov 6 2008, 11:27 AM
Post #34
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UberAdmiral
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- somerled
- Nov 6 2008, 11:18 AM
2 yes so far .... presumeably from americans .... interesting.
Presumably one from you...
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Admiralbill_gomec
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Nov 6 2008, 11:29 AM
Post #35
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UberAdmiral
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- somerled
- Nov 6 2008, 11:24 AM
- Dr. Noah
- Nov 6 2008, 06:56 AM
Let's look at it this way.
Alaska has a population of 670,053 according to the 2006 Census estimate. They have 3 electoral votes. That gives an electoral vote to every 223,351 people in Alaska. Whereas New York state with a population of 19,306,183 and has 31 electoral votes. That gives an electoral vote to every 622,780 people in New York State. Alaska has nearly three times the proportional representation as New York. One electoral vote for nearly the entire population of Alaska in New York.
I saw that , not fair that a people in a small state have proportionally more say than those in a much bigger state .... here we call that : Gerrymandering (is a form of redistribution in which electoral district or constituency boundaries are manipulated for electoral advantage. Gerrymandering may be used to help or hinder particular constituents, such as members of a political, racial, linguistic, religious or class group ) and would be a scandel. So... why not just have the candidates campaign in the ten largest cities in the country and ignore the rest?
That is the essense of what happens without giving smaller states SOME say in the process.
Of note: Neither candidate spent much time in Texas, nor did they spend time in New York or California. I wonder why?
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Admiralbill_gomec
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Nov 6 2008, 11:31 AM
Post #36
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UberAdmiral
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- somerled
- Nov 6 2008, 11:26 AM
- Admiralbill_gomec
- Nov 6 2008, 10:00 AM
- somerled
- Nov 6 2008, 02:03 AM
- Dandandat
- Nov 5 2008, 10:48 PM
- somerled
- Nov 5 2008, 10:25 PM
- Dandandat
- Nov 5 2008, 10:21 PM
- somerled
- Nov 5 2008, 09:54 PM
Well it is very strange and lot different to our election system - so it's understandable that some of us foreigners who have not grown up being told about it and how it "works" might be a tad confused.
Well then for you foreigners; its really simple to understand. The US is not a homogenize single state, it’s a union of smaller states. The electoral college is a system designed so that within the union larger states cannot make smaller states irrelevant.
Um .... nor is Australia , anyone who has spent any time here will attest to how diverse Australia is , we are at least as diverse as the USA , maybe more so. We have a federal system too , and similar state's rights issues. The men (and women) who established our federation looked at lots of different systems to come up with what they believed was the most fair , rejecting the USA system which they also considered at the turn of 20th century. They were wize men in my humble opinion. We get buy very nicely using a different system.
You also have a population 15% the size of ours. Your population density is concentrated much different than ours. Your GDP is vastly smaller than ours. Australia would just be another state in our union. That you would compare the US and Australia in this way is comical and non-intellectual. California works just fine with a centralized government; that is what you should compare Australia too. And on that scale you are quite right your system works fine. On the scale the size of the US there have to be safe grads in place to make sure one country size state does not dominate the other smaller country sized states.
So what (size of population) ?
Australia's population and GDP are smaller than the state of Texas.
Irrelevant. And so what. No, it makes your crowing about the great nation of Australia seem a tad overblown and self-aggrandizing.
Face it. You live in a country that is smaller and has less population than our three largest states.
Our three largest states could join the G8 if they were independent nations.
That's why it is relevant.
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On that note good night .... got a long way to drive tomorrow and an dawn start or there abouts to get to a bad patch of road by about noon and just before low tide
You know, for someone who claims to be in such a hurry to get to bed you're wasting a lot of time here.
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Dandandat
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Nov 6 2008, 12:14 PM
Post #37
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Time to put something here
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- somerled
- Nov 6 2008, 11:24 AM
- Dr. Noah
- Nov 6 2008, 06:56 AM
Let's look at it this way.
Alaska has a population of 670,053 according to the 2006 Census estimate. They have 3 electoral votes. That gives an electoral vote to every 223,351 people in Alaska. Whereas New York state with a population of 19,306,183 and has 31 electoral votes. That gives an electoral vote to every 622,780 people in New York State. Alaska has nearly three times the proportional representation as New York. One electoral vote for nearly the entire population of Alaska in New York.
I saw that , not fair that a people in a small state have proportionally more say than those in a much bigger state .... here we call that : Gerrymandering (is a form of redistribution in which electoral district or constituency boundaries are manipulated for electoral advantage. Gerrymandering may be used to help or hinder particular constituents, such as members of a political, racial, linguistic, religious or class group ) and would be a scandel. I see you missed this:
- dandandat
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But NY has 33 electoral college votes to Alaska's 3 that's 1100% more power in the union for NY then Alaska. Even with the electoral college in place, New Yorkers have an overwhelming amount of power to direct the nation over Alaskans. With out the college Alaskans might as well not even show up to vote. As their regional concerns would never be addressed because politicians would only address the regional concerns of New Yorkers (Texans and Californians - maybe Floridians and Pennsylvanians) everyone else might as well not exist in the union.
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STC
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Nov 6 2008, 02:16 PM
Post #38
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Commodore
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I voted no. Maybe the proportions could be tweaked, but that's all and in my book doesn't count as a 'maybe'.
From what I understand, the autonomy and individual influence of the 'states' is important in America, hence the 'United States'. To move to a system of popular vote would surely be to suppress the influence of the states and, in the context of the way the U.S. is formed and what people there want, it would be inappopriate to have a significant change as to what is in place now. Also, seems to work well enough from what I can see.
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RTW
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Nov 6 2008, 02:45 PM
Post #39
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Vice Admiral
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- Admiralbill_gomec
- Nov 6 2008, 11:31 AM
Our three largest states could join the G8 if they were independent nations. Californiastan, New Yorkistan, and ???
Perhaps we should split up and get each state a seat at the UN?
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Admiralbill_gomec
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Nov 6 2008, 03:25 PM
Post #40
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UberAdmiral
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- RTW
- Nov 6 2008, 02:45 PM
- Admiralbill_gomec
- Nov 6 2008, 11:31 AM
Our three largest states could join the G8 if they were independent nations.
Californiastan, New Yorkistan, and ??? Perhaps we should split up and get each state a seat at the UN? The last one would be the Republic of Texas.
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Scotty
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Nov 6 2008, 04:10 PM
Post #41
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Cadet 4th Year
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- Franko
- Nov 5 2008, 08:13 PM
- Scotty
- Nov 5 2008, 12:39 PM
No. Why ask this when you are a non-US citizen? Last I looked you only can vote if you an American citizen.
Ummm.....cuz they were curious ? Perhaps we should just restrict this forum to US citizens ? Or would you prefer that we from other lands just mind our own business ? What was your point here, dude ? My point is, why would someone who is not from the US want to change our political ways of dealing with our votes, being curious is one thing. Trying to change someones way of voting for a leader is another. Do I or anyone ever go onto a forum and tell an English man on how to vote for someone?
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Data's Cat's Sister
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Nov 6 2008, 04:57 PM
Post #42
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Commodore
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- Scotty
- Nov 6 2008, 04:10 PM
- Franko
- Nov 5 2008, 08:13 PM
- Scotty
- Nov 5 2008, 12:39 PM
No. Why ask this when you are a non-US citizen? Last I looked you only can vote if you an American citizen.
Ummm.....cuz they were curious ? Perhaps we should just restrict this forum to US citizens ? Or would you prefer that we from other lands just mind our own business ? What was your point here, dude ?
My point is, why would someone who is not from the US want to change our political ways of dealing with our votes, being curious is one thing. Trying to change someones way of voting for a leader is another. Do I or anyone ever go onto a forum and tell an English man on how to vote for someone? Well, speaking for myself, as a foreigner I'm not attempting to change the way you vote. I'm just interested in why you vote and how you vote. I like to compare legislatures and political systems; it's interesting.
Also, more broadly speaking, as America is the worlds only superpower there is no denying that what happens in your country profoundly effects my own. The foreign policy and economic decisions that are made in America effects day to day life in mine and it could even be argued, that it can effect it to a much greater degree then anything that my own Government can do. It would be foolish of me therefore to take no interest in what happens in America and one of the best ways I have of finding that out is from the direct interactions I have with Americans here at this forum.
This is an international forum and I feel free to express my opinion on any thread that is posted here be it about America, Canada or any other country. It is my hope that I always do this with respect and careful thought.
There are threads here about the UK, STC, DS9 and myself often start them. You and all other members of Sistertrek are welcome to comment on them. We may choose to disagree with you but we welcome your opinion.
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Admiralbill_gomec
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Nov 6 2008, 05:01 PM
Post #43
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UberAdmiral
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I believe (and I can't say "I know" because I'm not telepathic) that Scotty was also reacting to Somerled's rather confrontational start to this thread.
He said,
- Quote:
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Should the complex and unweldly Electoral College system be ditched and Presidents elected by a first past the post citisen vote , doing away delegates and superdelegates and the potential corruptness of the existing Electoral College system ?
Right off the bat I also believe that this was intentionally confrontational. My dog (provided she could read, type, and not drool on the keyboard) could probably have written something a bit more neutral... or not.
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Dandandat
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Nov 6 2008, 05:02 PM
Post #44
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Time to put something here
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- Data's Cat's Sister
- Nov 6 2008, 04:57 PM
- Scotty
- Nov 6 2008, 04:10 PM
- Franko
- Nov 5 2008, 08:13 PM
- Scotty
- Nov 5 2008, 12:39 PM
No. Why ask this when you are a non-US citizen? Last I looked you only can vote if you an American citizen.
Ummm.....cuz they were curious ? Perhaps we should just restrict this forum to US citizens ? Or would you prefer that we from other lands just mind our own business ? What was your point here, dude ?
My point is, why would someone who is not from the US want to change our political ways of dealing with our votes, being curious is one thing. Trying to change someones way of voting for a leader is another. Do I or anyone ever go onto a forum and tell an English man on how to vote for someone?
Well, speaking for myself, as a foreigner I'm not attempting to change the way you vote. I'm just interested in why you vote and how you vote. I like to compare legislatures and political systems; it's interesting.
Don't believe a word she says. She is not mealy interested in how you do things Scott she is intent on world domination and is information gathering.
You didn’t think I would find out did you DCS; was your plan to kill me or would you simply destroy or take over all of my infrastructure and leave me with nothing? I am so disappointed in you, you had such potential.
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Admiralbill_gomec
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Nov 6 2008, 05:04 PM
Post #45
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UberAdmiral
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- Dandandat
- Nov 6 2008, 05:02 PM
- Data's Cat's Sister
- Nov 6 2008, 04:57 PM
- Scotty
- Nov 6 2008, 04:10 PM
- Franko
- Nov 5 2008, 08:13 PM
- Scotty
- Nov 5 2008, 12:39 PM
No. Why ask this when you are a non-US citizen? Last I looked you only can vote if you an American citizen.
Ummm.....cuz they were curious ? Perhaps we should just restrict this forum to US citizens ? Or would you prefer that we from other lands just mind our own business ? What was your point here, dude ?
My point is, why would someone who is not from the US want to change our political ways of dealing with our votes, being curious is one thing. Trying to change someones way of voting for a leader is another. Do I or anyone ever go onto a forum and tell an English man on how to vote for someone?
Well, speaking for myself, as a foreigner I'm not attempting to change the way you vote. I'm just interested in why you vote and how you vote. I like to compare legislatures and political systems; it's interesting. Also, more broadly speaking, as America is the worlds only superpower there is no denying that what happens in your country profoundly effects my own. The foreign policy and economic decisions that are made in America effects day to day life in mine and it could even be argued, that it can effect it to a much greater degree then anything that my own Government can do. It would be foolish of me therefore to take no interest in what happens in America and one of the best ways I have of finding that out is from the direct interactions I have with Americans here at this forum. This is an international forum and I feel free to express my opinion on any thread that is posted here be it about America, Canada or any other country. It is my hope that I always do this with respect and careful thought. There are threads here about the UK, STC, DS9 and myself often start them. You and all other members of Sistertrek are welcome to comment on them. We may choose to disagree with you but we welcome your opinion.
Don't believe a word she says. She is not mealy interested in how you do things Scott she is intent on world domination and is information gathering. You didn’t think I would find out did you DCS; was your plan to kill me or would you simply destroy or take over all of my infrastructure and leave me with nothing? I am so disappointed in you, you had such potential. ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US
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